Wisconsin Basketball 2022-23

[Jim French Stepstool]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

I looked at recent guys that have transferred (like last five years), most of them are still irrelevant. So even if they had stayed not sure that really helps anything. Only guy actually worth a lick is Kobe King…and he didn’t leave for playing time or because Wisconsin is a developmental program.

Calling them a developmental program seems odd and just trying to play the victim card. If guys that are leaving weren’t productive and weren’t big time recruits…what exactly did they develop? The reason they are leaving is because Wisconsin isn’t developing them (or not giving them the playing time). The fact that all the players  are ending up at random non power five conference teams tells me they are leaving because they don’t like Wisconsin…not that some other program is trying to pry them away because they want what Wisconsin has.

Guys leave every single program because they are mad about playing time, that isn’t something unique to Wisconsin.

I mean.....calling them a developmental program is odd? I 've never heard anyone say that. How is that akin to playing a victim card? There's plenty of guys over the years who DID stay and DID develop from year one to year 3 or 4.

A couple of the people who left were probably good enough to push those still there, not much more than that. But that sometimes makes a difference. Definitely, most players everywhere who leave P-5 schools transfer "down". The last one I remember in Madison who went more-or-less lateral was Uthoff, who left after a redshirt year.

I do agree, the players who left definitely weren't developed.

[Jim French Stepstool]

Often, when a team loses a big lead late fans like to play the "choke" card. IMO that's usually inaccurate, but tonite I thought yeah, they felt the screws tightening a little. Through most of his career Tyler Wahl has been a guy who is fundamentally very sound & shows a propensity to make plays on both ends in the clutch. He's usually been surrounded by quite a bit of talent & experience. Since he's been one of their top 2 or 3 options everything seems a struggle for him. I really thought he failed them down the stretch. One thing that happened, when they needed stops late, they got a couple for the first time in awhile. It didn't hurt that Sensabaugh, who's really talented but very mistake-prone, wasn't there late.

Slowly but surely, Essegian is becoming not just a shooter, but a scorer. The shot he had blocked, then catching it in midair & going back up for the bucket, that's just hoops instinct. Really impressive. Late in the game when they go offense-defense, he was out there over Davis. Kinda significant.

Not good on the D-boards, again.

 

[MrTPlush]

39 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

I mean.....calling them a developmental program is odd? I 've never heard anyone say that. How is that akin to playing a victim card? There's plenty of guys over the years who DID stay and DID develop from year one to year 3 or 4.

A couple of the people who left were probably good enough to push those still there, not much more than that. But that sometimes makes a difference. Definitely, most players everywhere who leave P-5 schools transfer "down". The last one I remember in Madison who went more-or-less lateral was Uthoff, who left after a redshirt year.

I do agree, the players who left definitely weren't developed.

I suppose I might have misinterpreted what he had meant when he said developmental program. As the conversation was largely talking about guys bailing and transferring out, I took it as basically ending up a “farm system” for teams…but I suppose he probably just meant their concept of recruit guys, develop them over 3+ years versus starting as a freshman.

But again, that concept isn’t unique to Wisconsin. Every team in basketball does that these days. So I don’t see where the disadvantage is that is making it a reason for the Badgers struggles. Every team deals with the same transfer drama. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

14 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I suppose I might have misinterpreted what he had meant when he said developmental program. As the conversation was largely talking about guys bailing and transferring out, I took it as basically ending up a “farm system” for teams…but I suppose he probably just meant their concept of recruit guys, develop them over 3+ years versus starting as a freshman.

But again, that concept isn’t unique to Wisconsin. Every team in basketball does that these days. So I don’t see where the disadvantage is that is making it a reason for the Badgers struggles. Every team deals with the same transfer drama. 

Gotcha. Can't speak for Ely but I'm guessing he didn't quite mean it that way (?).

The way you interpreted it is, I fear, going to be a way of life for many low-to-mid major teams.

[LouisEly]

3 hours ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

I would consider #3 to be a factor, but not one that's hamstrung them all that much over the years.

Don't underestimate the power of AAU coaches and camps in steering players towards their sponsors.  Remember Diamond Stone?

[LouisEly]

22 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I suppose I might have misinterpreted what he had meant when he said developmental program. As the conversation was largely talking about guys bailing and transferring out, I took it as basically ending up a “farm system” for teams…but I suppose he probably just meant their concept of recruit guys, develop them over 3+ years versus starting as a freshman.

What I meant was guys staying, redshirting their freshman year, coming off of the bench for a couple of years, and becoming something their 3rd/4th year in the program.  A la Frank Kaminsky, Jordan Taylor, Ben Brust, Tyler Wahl, Bronson Koenig, Jared Berggren, to a lesser extent Nate Reuvers, D'Mitrik Trice,  Johnny Davis didn't redshirt, but he didn't start any games as a freshman and was a high 3-star recruit.  Happ was good as a freshman, but he redshited and learned under Kaminsky for a year while never playing.

If they go to a different school, they don't get the same development.  Different coaches, different system.  How many of those guys would have stayed had the portal existed?  We'll never know.

[MrTPlush]

7 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

What I meant was guys staying, redshirting their freshman year, coming off of the bench for a couple of years, and becoming something their 3rd/4th year in the program.  A la Frank Kaminsky, Jordan Taylor, Ben Brust, Tyler Wahl, Bronson Koenig, Jared Berggren, to a lesser extent Nate Reuvers, D'Mitrik Trice,  Johnny Davis didn't redshirt, but he didn't start any games as a freshman and was a high 3-star recruit.  Happ was good as a freshman, but he redshited and learned under Kaminsky for a year while never playing.

If they go to a different school, they don't get the same development.  Different coaches, different system.  How many of those guys would have stayed had the portal existed?  We'll never know.

Feels like the Badgers have wisely went away from that, no? Sitting as a freshman is pretty common these days or minimal playing time. But most aren’t going to be happy with a second year of hardly playing. 
 

The issue Wisconsin has is they aren’t developing and churning out NBA talent, nor are the prospects coming in exactly expected to be that kind of potential. Thus, guys will be quick to jump ship for playing time because, well, their college career is the climax of their career. Probably a good reason why they tends to recruit as locally as possible where guys will be more loyal and not treat it as a business transaction.

[Jim French Stepstool]

2 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Don't underestimate the power of AAU coaches and camps in steering players towards their sponsors.  Remember Diamond Stone?

For sure, as I said it's a factor. It's caused a seismic change in how kids spend their 3-4 years before joining a program. I just feel they've negotiated those polluted waters pretty effectively.

I was briefly at WB Dominican, but it was post-Stone so I have no juicy recruiting stories to tell😐.

[MrTPlush]

10 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Don't underestimate the power of AAU coaches and camps in steering players towards their sponsors.  Remember Diamond Stone?

The amount of backdoor payments, especially related to shoe sponsors was probably epic before even though teams rarely got caught for anything. 

Of course, now you just have NIL stuff so I doubt it is as widespread as it maybe once was. Back then you just needed $5-$10k to convince some kid to go to a certain school...because you could only take so much without getting caught...and it wasn't exactly easy to find the cash on the black market of recruiting. 

[RobDeer 45]

I think Chucky has to take over a bit and get shots/layups more down the stretch or in critical spots.  He does it at times but other times seems to give the ball up too easily.  Connor looks good and I can't wait to see what he becomes.  I love Wahl but he struggled in the clutch.  I hope that turns around as he gets more games under him from his injury.  

[Jim French Stepstool]

25 minutes ago, RobDeer 45 said:

I think Chucky has to take over a bit and get shots/layups more down the stretch or in critical spots.  He does it at times but other times seems to give the ball up too easily.  Connor looks good and I can't wait to see what he becomes.  I love Wahl but he struggled in the clutch.  I hope that turns around as he gets more games under him from his injury.  

Watch Klesmit on his drives to the hoop. It's infrequent but he has a knack for reading when he has an angle on the defender & can get a guy on his hip or shield him with his backside, getting the shot up cleanly. Hepburn for whatever reason hasn't developed the same knack for this, which is why you see him resort to the pullups & fadeaways. Too bad too, because he has the build for it. Hopefully he gets a better feel for it.

Not much to say anymore about Wahl except he simply needs to get back to where he was.

[LouisEly]

7 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

The amount of backdoor payments, especially related to shoe sponsors was probably epic before even though teams rarely got caught for anything. 

Of course, now you just have NIL stuff so I doubt it is as widespread as it maybe once was. Back then you just needed $5-$10k to convince some kid to go to a certain school...because you could only take so much without getting caught...and it wasn't exactly easy to find the cash on the black market of recruiting. 

Yep, there was the whole Adidas (and non-Adidas) corruption scandal that came to light in 2017.  The Elite Youth Basketball League, the grassroots basketball division of Nike, was served with a subpoena by federal investigators.  Diamond Stone allegedly received over $14,000 from ASM to attend Maryland.

Now, with NIL, it's even worse - they have NIL deals with Nike (and Adidas, and Under Armour) that can legally stipulate that they must attend a school that they sponsor in order to get the NIL money (they get around it by not specifying a school in the deal and just say "any school" that Nike is affiliated with).  Nike is the dominant player in NCAA BB.  Nike is in a lot better financial shape than Under Armour and has a lot more $ to give out on NIL deals.

[LouisEly]

17 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

The issue Wisconsin has is they aren’t developing and churning out NBA talent

Except for Johnny Davis, and Micah Potter, and Aleem Ford.  But other than those guys, yeah, they're not developing and churning out NBA talent.

[sveumrules]

9 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

Except for Johnny Davis, and Micah Potter, and Aleem Ford.  But other than those guys, yeah, they're not developing and churning out NBA talent.

Micah Potter is at 640 minutes in the G-League vs 45 in the NBA. Ford is at 776 GL minutes vs 74 in the NBA.

Sure, Davis was a lottery pick, but even he's only played 50 minutes so far in the NBA vs 353 in the G-League.

[Oxy]

The schedule is very favorable for UW coming down the stretch, starting with a home game vs NU right now. I could see UW going 7-2 in their last nine. That said, going 2-7 is NOT out of the realm of possibility... The lack of Klesmit vs the Wildcats a couple weeks ago was fatal, as his D should be the perfect antidote to Chase Audige.

[yourout]

Just not very good.

Their is not a coach in the land that will get much more out of this team. Just way short of talent.

[yourout]

That pretty much eliminates dancing.

NIT or nothing.

[Samurai Bucky]

1 hour ago, yourout said:

Just not very good.

Their is not a coach in the land that will get much more out of this team. Just way short of talent.

Maybe if more of the team would fight for a rebound more often, they would do better.  Essegian and Klesmit are the only two who know how to box out.  Jordan Davis seems to be the only one who tries for an offensive rebound.

Wahl, for whatever reason, is nowhere close to where he was last year.  Crowl gets pushed around way too much.

I hope Essegian doesn't transfer.

[Jim French Stepstool]

First of all, let me get out of the way what's going to sound like an excuse (but isn't): That was a really, really good defensive performance by NW. The post double was terrific. Did we respond to it well? Not really, but I would say most of the time it was adequate. UW couldn't move the ball quickly because the double was delayed & the kickout needed to be cross-court to result in an immediate shot. We DID seem to adjust in the 2nd half early as Wahl dove into the lane for the pocket pass, but that was covered too. There were enough shots (eventually) on the reversal but obviously not enough went down.

Unless NW came in with their heads up their arse, it was going to be another low-scoring, close game. To win this one, besides making more shots they needed to rebound the ball better than they have been. They didn't. Not many second opportunities but that's pretty much by design. They really need to make people score off them in the half-court; they've been prioritizing that over offensive boards for a long time & I agree with it. The D-rebounding & 50-50 balls hurt, again.

Just one of those deals where you needed one more stop and/or one more score. The edge to NW late was they had 2 guys who could score in different ways & we have (kinda) one.

I remember thinking at the beginning of the game that due to the matchups it was kinda a shame that a quality defender like Wahl would be "wasted" on Baran. Then he gives up a wide open look from three about a minute into the game. Just another frustrating performance from him.

 

[MrTPlush]

Pretty uphill battle for them to make the tourney. The Big Ten sucks this year and has not nor will it give them many opportunities for high-end wins. Purdue is the only ranked opponent left on the schedule. If they go 6-2, they probably set themselves up to have a chance if they do well in the big ten tourney and other fringe teams falter. But honestly, not really any reason to expect a team that can't defend their own home court to win 6 out of 8.

Wahl and Crowl just aren't a great 'big men'. Which is being really generous as Wahl isn't that tall nor physical and Crowl has to be one of the least imposing 7' footers in basketball. Gard should really hit up the transfer portal and find some physical big men looking for a home. 

[nate82]

I think the Badgers make the tourney as long as they don't go 3-5 or worse.  If they go 5-3 I think they can still get an 8 seed depending on how well they play in the tourney.  Ultimately I think they get in as a 10 or 12 seed. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

Seriously doubt there will be any portal acquisitions to replace Wahl (if he takes his extra year) & Crowl. They've played at a more than acceptable level in the past & need to figure things out. They both need to be better, and have been.

IMO the overall body of work & remaining sked is more than enough to earn a berth, they just have to start winning games. My biggest concerns right now moving forward (other than Wahls' struggles, which are obvious) are the malaise at the FT line, which is unfortunately starting to get in some guys' heads, and starters maybe wearing down in the weeks to come. Pretty short bench the last couple games as Ilver, Hodges & Lindsey just haven't shown enough consistency to get on the floor. McGee is back on an uptick but Davis has been a liability on offense lately. And now you have to hope Essegian doesn't hit a wall. He's never played this # of games before vs this level of competition.

Against Penn State, hope to see Klesmit fight through screens vs Pickett as opposed to all the switching. That hurt them when the teams played in Madison.

[RedStickBrew]

15 hours ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

First of all, let me get out of the way what's going to sound like an excuse (but isn't): That was a really, really good defensive performance by NW. The post double was terrific. Did we respond to it well? Not really, but I would say most of the time it was adequate. UW couldn't move the ball quickly because the double was delayed & the kickout needed to be cross-court to result in an immediate shot. We DID seem to adjust in the 2nd half early as Wahl dove into the lane for the pocket pass, but that was covered too. There were enough shots (eventually) on the reversal but obviously not enough went down.

Unless NW came in with their heads up their arse, it was going to be another low-scoring, close game. To win this one, besides making more shots they needed to rebound the ball better than they have been. They didn't. Not many second opportunities but that's pretty much by design. They really need to make people score off them in the half-court; they've been prioritizing that over offensive boards for a long time & I agree with it. The D-rebounding & 50-50 balls hurt, again.

Just one of those deals where you needed one more stop and/or one more score. The edge to NW late was they had 2 guys who could score in different ways & we have (kinda) one.

I remember thinking at the beginning of the game that due to the matchups it was kinda a shame that a quality defender like Wahl would be "wasted" on Baran. Then he gives up a wide open look from three about a minute into the game. Just another frustrating performance from him.

 

Seems obvious to me that Wahl is still struggling with the ankle.  He has no lateral movement and gets beat off the dribble pretty consistently.  He is also having trouble elevating and finishing in the post.

I wish Gard would have went with McGee at the point with Hepburn, Essegian, Klesmit also on the floor with one big.  When the ball came into the post it was usually Wahl's or Gilmore's man that doubled the post, so the open shooter on the perimeter who the ball was kicked out to was not a good perimeter shooter.

[Jim French Stepstool]

2 hours ago, RedStickBrew said:

Seems obvious to me that Wahl is still struggling with the ankle.  He has no lateral movement and gets beat off the dribble pretty consistently.  He is also having trouble elevating and finishing in the post.

I wish Gard would have went with McGee at the point with Hepburn, Essegian, Klesmit also on the floor with one big.  When the ball came into the post it was usually Wahl's or Gilmore's man that doubled the post, so the open shooter on the perimeter who the ball was kicked out to was not a good perimeter shooter.

Some have pointed out that Wahl wasn't playing all that well BEFORE getting hurt, either. But that doesn't mean that it isn't bothering him. I wouldn't be surprised if he's at something less than 100%. But I don't know if lack of elevation is his problem re finishing. He's always been more about angles & getting his man at a disadvantage with the ball fakes & footwork. Whatever it is, hopefully the ankle feels a little better each day.

I don't know about going with one big with the rebounding troubles we've had. As to playing McGee & Hepburn together, I wouldn't be surprised if they thought about that as a possibility before the season. The kid averaged around 10 PPG as a freshman at GB. But he's had some well-documented struggles. If he can string together some consistency, yeah, I'd like to see Hepburn get a chance to work off the ball a little.

 

[MrTPlush]

4 hours ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

Seriously doubt there will be any portal acquisitions to replace Wahl (if he takes his extra year) & Crowl. They've played at a more than acceptable level in the past & need to figure things out. They both need to be better, and have been.

Not necessarily to replace them, but the Badgers guards are tiny, Wahl isn't a very large forward, and Crowl isn't that much better despite being 7 feet tall. Then when one of those guys go to the bench...wowzer. 

That isn't to say they aren't good or aren't good defensively...but the Badgers have literally nothing on the team to come off the bench and they have no way to shake things up if Crowl/Wahl can't score on a more imposing big man or if they are struggling to defend one. 

Their two wins they have had since the losing barrage started...tiny teams. Pretty much every loss has come at the hands of teams running triple forwards. I didn't even look at comparing benches, which surely Wisconsin is always at a size disadvantage. No wonder they are getting outrebounded by large margins and often times allowing quite a few more FTs.