Hunter Renfroe to Angels for 3 pitchers

[Robocaller]

5 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

By this logic, the Twins signing Carlos Correa last year was not a "significant signing."

Who cares if they sign someone for 1/17?

If they were able to....somehow sign Contreras for 1/17, THAT is a "significant" signing. So yeah, a big one year deal can absolutely be a significant signing. 

I also want to see them sign Burnes, but I don't know how "going for it" this year would mean extending Burnes through further years. 

The BTV site is good for some things, but what I think they miss is the value of (some) guys going into their last arbitration year or last year of a contract. Acquiring a 2.7WAR player (in the case of Renfroe) can be the difference between making the playoffs or not. Getting such "rentals" is significant. I'd assert it's what we should be doing.

[StearnsFTW]

38 minutes ago, BlightyBrew said:

Truth usually is simple.  

NM.

 

 I give.

 

 

[jerichoholicninja]

I can't believe it was Hunter Renfroe that broke this place. A sizable chunk of the posts in this thread are why I come here a lot less often than I used to. And most of those posts are from names I don't recognize. Bringing in more traffic isn't always a good thing.

As for the trade, I don't really care about losing Renfroe but boy that return seems uninspiring.

[StearnsFTW]

14 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

I really don't get all the spin on this trade, which seems to be coming from people whose jobs depend on making it seem like management is making good decisions.

It makes us worse now, with very limited future upside from the players we acquired. I don't see how anyone can come to a different conclusion. The only potential benefit is giving playing time to a rookie, and that's a dice roll about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

 

The thing is, you don't know if it makes us worse now until that $11MM is spent.  That's the whole point of the deal, the $11MM.

 

[Lajitas]

It's half the payroll needed to be shed in order to sign Abreu!!!!!!

[Robocaller]

13 minutes ago, monty57 said:

Hopefully, this deal saves more money than just the expected $11M for Renfroe. 

Without pre-arby options, the Brewers would likely have to go out and sign some bullpen arms for a couple million dollars each. I'd guess that the Brewers are looking for two of the guys we got to break camp on the 26-man roster, with the third guy sitting in the minors as "injury insurance." They may only be in the "Suter role" and middle relief, but they're still roster spots that have to be paid. 

Let's say we have a $110-120M payroll this year. We have to have 26 players on the roster, so that's around $4.2-$4.6M per roster spot. Every guy on the roster that's paid league minimum means that we can pay more for the other spots.

Plus, they have years of team control, so if we are looking at extending someone, we now have additional cheap options for the 26-man that could allow us to have extra payroll in future years as well. Budgets are boring, but they're pretty important.

If they're thinking those guys are more than another Jason Alexander next year, I hope they've had a coach look at film and scream, "Eureka, I can fix that so easily." 
As crap thrown against the wall to see what sticks, yeah, that's reasonable (I think one of them can stick). As guys to count on, well, they just haven't earned that.

 

[Robocaller]

8 minutes ago, StearnsFTW said:

The thing is, you don't know if it makes us worse now until that $11MM is spent.  That's the whole point of the deal, the $11MM.

 

How on Earth can we assume that money WILL be spent on anything other than arbitration raises for players we currently have on the roster?
If we sign Abreu, my view on this trade will change. Until that happens, I can only evaluate the trade in a vacuum.

 

[StearnsFTW]

4 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

How on Earth can we assume that money WILL be spent on anything other than arbitration raises for players we currently have on the roster?
If we sign Abreu, my view on this trade will change. Until that happens, I can only evaluate the trade in a vacuum.

 

We can't assume it.  We can wait and see though.

 

Certainly in a vacuum, this trade is not great, but unless you think our front office is full of idiots (and maybe it is), I think we can safely assume that that money will be spent (because our front office is not full of idiots).

We'll see.

 

[Robocaller]

2 minutes ago, StearnsFTW said:

We can't assume it.  We can wait and see though.

 

Certainly in a vacuum, this trade is not great, but unless you think our front office is full of idiots (and maybe it is), I think we can safely assume that that money will be spent (because our front office is not full of idiots).

We'll see.

 

I think our front office is cheap and that they do stupid things because of that.

 

[monty57]

2 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

I really don't get all the spin on this trade, which seems to be coming from people whose jobs depend on making it seem like management is making good decisions.

It makes us worse now, with very limited future upside from the players we acquired. I don't see how anyone can come to a different conclusion. The only potential benefit is giving playing time to a rookie, and that's a dice roll about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

 

There is probably some "hope springs eternal" in my outlook. I want the team to do well, so I'll look for the bright side of a trade.

I expected them to hold onto Renfroe, but I also expected them to let Wong move on to free agency. I've expected them to lower payroll since the article came out on ticket sales dropping significantly, so they probably couldn't keep everyone, especially if they are looking at improving elsewhere.

They probably felt that they needed Wong at 2B more than they needed Renfroe in the OF. They also recently got rid of some relievers who are getting more expensive and just traded for some relievers who are going to be paid league minimum. If Junk can pitch Suter's innings for a few million less, then I guess that's good for the Brewers.

I think/hope that some of the savings will be used to upgrade elsewhere. I'd really like to see a "real" third baseman brought in instead of a second baseman playing out of position. Or maybe we get a good first baseman who could move Rowdy to DH. 

Sometimes moves need to be made to save money. Nobody likes them, whether that is buying the Honda instead of the sports car, or trading a veteran OF and letting a rookie play. But whether we like it or not the Brewers have a smaller budget than many of their competitors. 

I'll choose to look for the positives. We have a relatively small payroll, but at this point we have one of the best rotations in baseball, we just added some pieces to a bullpen that needed it, we have most of our position players set, and the rookies that are being asked to step up have shown a lot of promise in their minor league career. 

Even without more moves, we should go into the season with a decent shot at winning the division, but I think we still have some moves to be made. 

I'm excited about this team, and rather than bemoaning the rookies, berating the owner, or deriding every move, I'm looking forward to seeing what they'll do for the rest of the offseason, and am waiting earnestly for opening day.

But then again, I'm kind of an optimist. It's easier these days with an ownership group that has proven itself to be pretty good for an extended period of time.

[DR28]

Funny that people on here think we're gonna sign some big bat now that we have $11 M freed up... Again this FO has shown us all we need to see after Hader and Renfroe trades, Declining Box, getting rid of Suter...

We're shedding payroll and gonna be playing a bunch of rookies.

[monty57]

10 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

If they're thinking those guys are more than another Jason Alexander next year, I hope they've had a coach look at film and scream, "Eureka, I can fix that so easily." 
As crap thrown against the wall to see what sticks, yeah, that's reasonable (I think one of them can stick). As guys to count on, well, they just haven't earned that.

 

The scouting reports that Eye Black posted earlier in the thread seem more positive than "crap thrown against the wall." 

These aren't star players, but what can you expect from trading Hunter Renfroe? Junk will probably take on the Suter role, which for the Brewers is kind of important. They also got a left reliever that will allow Milner to pitch the higher-leverage situations.

As I've said in other posts, a big part of this is that we saved money. We have Frelick to step into Renfroe's position, and hopefully we are able to use some of the money we would have paid Renfroe to pick up a corner IF, where we are pretty thin.

There is no given that Attanasio will spend the money, but I think he's shown that he'll spend when he thinks there's a meaningful upgrade. They don't really seem to like relying on Hiura, so I think they'll find a corner IF somewhere.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

6 hours ago, AdvantageSchneider said:

We are talking about Hunter Renfroe here not Mike Trout.  We traded for him just a year ago giving up JBJ and two mid tier prospects.  It seems reasonable to state that trading JBJ was a salary dump so one of those prospects was the payment for Boston taking on JBJ's contact.   Which means last year when we got Renfroe he was worth one mid-tier prospect.  That was when he only cost $7.5M and had 2 years of control left.  This year when we traded away Renfroe we got one mid-tier prospect and two other arms.  Sure seems to me that is the value of Renfroe and the Brewers did well to get what they did for him.

Nice strawman (the absolute lowest form of internet posting after trolling). Hope you enjoyed the like you got on this post from an team apologist. Who compared Hunter Renfroe to Mike Trout? My post literally said: "It's easy to see why the Brewers were looking to move Renfroe rather than pay what he'll get this year but they didn't have to trade him for Junk.".

Very few if any here are taking exception to the idea of trading Renfroe. They simply see the folly in trading a useful major league hitter for non prospects who have the added plus of being old. It would not be difficult to do better than this deal.

[monty57]

6 minutes ago, DR28 said:

Funny that people on here think we're gonna sign some big bat now that we have $11 M freed up... Again this FO has shown us all we need to see after Hader and Renfroe trades, Declining Box, getting rid of Suter...

We're shedding payroll and gonna be playing a bunch of rookies.

I'll counter that with "this FO has shown us all we need by giving us one of the best periods of baseball in Brewers' history." 

My guess is that the "bunch of rookies" (Frelick, Mitchell, Turang, Chourio, Wiemer, etc.) will be guys you'll enjoy cheering for if you give them a chance and don't get so depressed that you give up on the team.

[DR28]

7 minutes ago, monty57 said:

I'll counter that with "this FO has shown us all we need by giving us one of the best periods of baseball in Brewers' history." 

My guess is that the "bunch of rookies" (Frelick, Mitchell, Turang, Chourio, Wiemer, etc.) will be guys you'll enjoy cheering for if you give them a chance and don't get so depressed that you give up on the team.

Good point, I love our OF prospects! Just want us to go for it, but idk looking unlikely at this time.

Guess we’ll see… Sorry everyone, Im just disappointed right now.

[Brewcrew82]

22 minutes ago, DR28 said:

Funny that people on here think we're gonna sign some big bat now that we have $11 M freed up... Again this FO has shown us all we need to see after Hader and Renfroe trades, Declining Box, getting rid of Suter...

We're shedding payroll and gonna be playing a bunch of rookies.

Funny that you say that with certainty when we're still in the middle of November. Talk to me in March. The market is back to being slow moving after the lockout last offseason. They have some payroll flexibility now, wheres they didn't before those moves. That's not insignificant.  

[Robocaller]

17 minutes ago, monty57 said:

The scouting reports that Eye Black posted earlier in the thread seem more positive than "crap thrown against the wall." 

You interpret those analyses, which I believe were written after the 2021 season, differently than I do. If one of them was similar to our Carlos Rodriguez--a prospect you can dream on--I'd feel better about the trade.

[Thurston Fluff]

39 minutes ago, monty57 said:

Hopefully, this deal saves more money than just the expected $11M for Renfroe. 

Without pre-arby options, the Brewers would likely have to go out and sign some bullpen arms for a couple million dollars each. I'd guess that the Brewers are looking for two of the guys we got to break camp on the 26-man roster, with the third guy sitting in the minors as "injury insurance." They may only be in the "Suter role" and middle relief, but they're still roster spots that have to be paid. 

 

This would be the high end of expectations IMHO. But even if none of them break camp on the roster it doesn't make this a bad move. They needed depth for the inevitable injuries that will occur. We saw what happens when injuries occur and the replacement fails. Last season we failed in part because our only legitimate insurance option in the minors was Small. If the same thing happens this season we'll have five options instead of one. That in itself is worth it. If one or two end up being legit relief options out of the gate all the better. We improved our depth that's about as much as we can expect for a one year rental of Renfroe.

[Brewcrew82]

Just now, Robocaller said:

You interpret those analyses, which I believe were written after the 2021 season, differently than I do. If one of them was similar to our Carlos Rodriguez--a prospect you can dream on--I'd feel better about the trade.

At the bare minimum, Junk has more upside than Alexander. That's something, after what we went through last year....

[True Blue Brew Crew]

6 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

You interpret those analyses, which I believe were written after the 2021 season, differently than I do. If one of them was similar to our Carlos Rodriguez--a prospect you can dream on--I'd feel better about the trade.

Exactly. Those reports were right on par with the typical report of a middling prospect. Equal parts fluff with plenty of hedging and reservation mixed in. Nothing in those reports that stand out to suggest the Brewers got themselves some hidden gems.

[monty57]

10 minutes ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

Exactly. Those reports were right on par with the typical report of a middling prospect. Equal parts fluff with plenty of hedging and reservation mixed in. Nothing in those reports that stand out to suggest the Brewers got themselves some hidden gems.

I’m not looking for a gem. I hope we got a couple middle relievers, and maybe Junk can spend time as a back-of-the-rotation starter when we inevitably trade away all the starting pitchers who are closing in on free agency. 
 

That’s about as hopeful as I can get. 

[Robocaller]

21 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

At the bare minimum, Junk has more upside than Alexander. 

I'm not sure of that. At least not to any appreciable extent. Alexander was elite (in the minors) at getting ground balls. What's Junk's calling card?

[Brock Beauchamp]

43 minutes ago, DR28 said:

Funny that people on here think we're gonna sign some big bat now that we have $11 M freed up... Again this FO has shown us all we need to see after Hader and Renfroe trades, Declining Box, getting rid of Suter...

We're shedding payroll and gonna be playing a bunch of rookies.

Oh, they'll be starting a bunch of rookies, that's almost a given. They don't have a lot of choice unless they raise payroll by a lot.

But in a vacuum, it's hard to judge this trade. The return is certainly underwhelming but also, it's the Angels. Maybe the Brewers plucked untapped talent from one of the worst development organizations in baseball.

But all in all, offseasons should not be judged before Christmas, much less Thanksgiving. In the modern game, it's often hard to evaluate an offseason the day pitchers and catchers report. There are so many moves left to make or not make and looking at one move in isolation doesn't give a good picture of anything.

[StearnsFTW]

58 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

I think our front office is cheap and that they do stupid things because of that.

 

Well I think we're going to find an answer to that one way or the other over the next 3 months. 

[monty57]

At the end of the day, I thought Renfroe would be on the opening day roster as RF/DH. That they mad the trade either means:

1) They needed the money, either because they’re broke or they have a better option on which to spend it. 
 

2) They think Frelick is ready to start and can provide production for a lot less than $11M. 
 

3) They really like the guys they got back. 
 

I think options 1 & 2 are more likely than option 3.