Game 2: Colts @ Packers - Sunday, Sept 15th at 12PM

[HarryDoyle]

23 hours ago, yourout said:

Wow....like right out of "Replacements".

 

We got a Jomboy breakdown here, people.

 

[Joseph Zarr]

20 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

 

And it's less a defense for Quay(though...I think he's getting WAY too much heat and he's been outstanding vs the pass this year) and more about what an impossible play that is and how easy that is for the RB. 

 

He graded out extremely poorly in 2023. All Quay has done in 2024 is Quay Walker things. Missed tackles, poor angles, poor reaction, dropped INT's. He is just not a good starting NFL backer. If he wasn't a 1st rd pick he wouldn't see the field:

I absolutely want to be wrong on this. This is the Norm, however. We're fooling ourselves if we think this is the exception.

[BrewerFan]

3 hours ago, Joseph Zarr said:

He graded out extremely poorly in 2023. All Quay has done in 2024 is Quay Walker things. Missed tackles, poor angles, poor reaction, dropped INT's. He is just not a good starting NFL backer. If he wasn't a 1st rd pick he wouldn't see the field:

I absolutely want to be wrong on this. This is the Norm, however. We're fooling ourselves if we think this is the exception.

Look at what you quoted from me

Quote

And it's less a defense for Quay(though...I think he's getting WAY too much heat and he's been outstanding vs the pass this year) and more about what an impossible play that is and how easy that is for the RB. 

I didn't say Quay has been great(though he has been very good in coverage)...I said using THAT play is ridiculous in my opinion and I'm shocked to see Tyler Brooke or Andy Herman or anyone else using it. That play was on Clark. If you expect Quay to make that play, you're expecting way too much out of any LBer. 

As for the rest...yeah, there's some bad football in there. You could also cut up his 7 best plays and he'd look pretty damn good, but as I said, less a defense of Quay, more about how you're judging a player and definitely about using the play with Kelly running free.  

[yourout]

3 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Look at what you quoted from me

I didn't say Quay has been great(though he has been very good in coverage)...I said using THAT play is ridiculous in my opinion and I'm shocked to see Tyler Brooke or Andy Herman or anyone else using it. That play was on Clark. If you expect Quay to make that play, you're expecting way too much out of any LBer. 

As for the rest...yeah, there's some bad football in there. You could also cut up his 7 best plays and he'd look pretty damn good, but as I said, less a defense of Quay, more about how you're judging a player and definitely about using the play with Kelly running free.  

He really lacks good instincts for a middle backer.

[CheezWizHed]

1 hour ago, yourout said:

He really lacks good instincts for a middle backer.

No doubt he came in raw as a player.  His calling card was 99% physical properties and has been learning to play the position.  As a rookie he was all emotion and speed and it got him in trouble.  Last year he played "OK", but clearly learning the position. This year, he is getting in the right spots, but not always able to finish the play.  There is improvement, but it is taking time. 

It will be interesting to see Cooper and he on the field at the same time.  That speed has a lot of potential to make a special defense. And by special, I mean top 10 (at least top 15).  That unfortunately is "special" compared to what we've had. 😂

[BrewerFan]

3 hours ago, yourout said:

He really lacks good instincts for a middle backer.

I agree, his instincts are probably average. But you don't have instincts like Luke Kuechly, Patrick Willis or even when Clay moved inside, he had great instincts.

Brian Urlacher...for example, pretty average instincts and physicality in the run game(elite in the passing game...he and Derrick Brooks are the two best I ever saw). 

No LB is going to look good if the guys in front of them aren't doing their jobs. Even Ray Lewis struggled and had some down years before they brought Ngata in there(Same with the Bears duo of Briggs and Urlacher and Tommy Harris). 

 

I really think the plays that are being used are just bad examples. I don't know what LB in the NFL is making that play that Andy Herman cited. You're trying to force things back inside if you can't make the play. There was another where McDuffie has outside contain, he lets Taylor get outside and Quay does shoot the gap, but now he's 1 on 1 with Taylor who has a full head of steam, and...that's a really bad matchup. 

 

2 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

This year, he is getting in the right spots, but not always able to finish the play.  There is improvement, but it is taking time. 

Agreed. we also just need all 11 guys to do their jobs and we'll be fine.

Cooper with Quay is going to be a lot of fun, especially in the nickel. 

[Sixtolezcano]

19 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Look at what you quoted from me

I didn't say Quay has been great(though he has been very good in coverage)...I said using THAT play is ridiculous in my opinion and I'm shocked to see Tyler Brooke or Andy Herman or anyone else using it. That play was on Clark. If you expect Quay to make that play, you're expecting way too much out of any LBer. 

As for the rest...yeah, there's some bad football in there. You could also cut up his 7 best plays and he'd look pretty damn good, but as I said, less a defense of Quay, more about how you're judging a player and definitely about using the play with Kelly running free.  

He can’t get off blocks, he can’t tackle, he’s not very strong and his football intellect is very poor. But other than that…?

[Joseph Zarr]

I need to find someone who stands up for me the way y'all are standing up for Quay. He's a very athletic not very good NFL football player. You can toss blame at other players for making him look the way he does. That's fine. At a certain point in time, the primary play-calling ILB has to actually make the plays. Quay routinely does not. Kenny Clark hasn't graded out (or played) all that well early in the shift to 4-3. BUT, I have 10x more faith Clark turns it around given his historical year-in and year-out performances for the Packers. I'll say it again: if he wasn't a premium draft pick, Quay wouldn't be playing. It's pretty simple. He's getting every and any opportunity because the Packers lack the options they have the confidence in. He certainly isn't starting every game because he's earning these opportunities or out-performing his peers. This is year 3. He is making the exact same mistakes he made in year one in terms of pursuit and reading gaps or playing off his D-Line. You can blame the D-Line. I simply see the exact same player I saw in year one. And that's just not a very good NFL player. But, a very athletic one. That's nice. Anywho, I hope he starts playing much better. I have very little faith he does. I just don't think the lightbulb of instincts magically turns on. You can criticize the clips chosen as well. Herman and Brooke consistently watch the All-22. They aren't cherry-picking these plays. They are literally watching the tape every week and seeing what they are seeing. Do you think they want to criticize Walker? I don't. I think they're simply reporting and sharing what they're seeing that is not sitting well.

[OldHeidelberg]

What will happen is Walker will get hurt and miss a few games and whoever the Packers plug in there (Wilson?) will do better. NFL teams give first round pick long leashes and this may be a case where drafting athletes over guys who are just good football players burns the packers a bit. We all knew Quay wasn't a good fit in the middle of the 4-3 when we switched but they haven't really done much to address it and drafted a similar player in Cooper.

[CheezWizHed]

I tend to think (hope?) that Cooper will eventually take over at MLB and let Quay run at OLB instead.  My guess is that this was the plan until Coop got hurt and stunted his development.  Now they are playing him 50% with Wilson to get him in the game.  I'd suspect by mid-year he is starting; possibly replacing McDuffie.  Might be next year before they'd swap Cooper and Walker (unless an injury forces it). 

But seriously?  We think Wilson being plugged into MLB is suddenly going to better at MLB (a position he doesn't play)?  He had a great game last week, but often pairs them with bad games.  He is a great ST player, and good backup LB, but not great starter.  That is why he is going 50/50 with Cooper now.  

 

21 hours ago, Joseph Zarr said:

I need to find someone who stands up for me the way y'all are standing up for Quay. 

One might say with fans like this, who needs enemies? 😉😂

[OldHeidelberg]

3 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

 

But seriously?  We think Wilson being plugged into MLB is suddenly going to better at MLB (a position he doesn't play)?  He had a great game last week, but often pairs them with bad games.  He is a great ST player, and good backup LB, but not great starter.  That is why he is going 50/50 with Cooper now.  

 

 

Why can't Wilson play MLB? Yes, I was just suggesting him as a possibility because of his play last week but I am curious why he would not be a fit there. I am sure it is not his best position but that seems to be a problem for this whole position group and someone has to play it. I think we had George Koonce and an old Hardy Nickerson in our 90's 4-3 heyday, neither were great players. Sometimes you just need to plug in savvy vets to fix a glaring weakness. Packers.com depth chart lists Hopper as the backup at MLB but I don't think his pass defense is there yet.

It's a new scheme, I am not giving up on Walker but we all seem to be in agreement he is a better fit at will. Maybe you are right and Cooper is the eventual plan.  

[CheezWizHed]

18 minutes ago, OldHeidelberg said:

Why can't Wilson play MLB? Yes, I was just suggesting him as a possibility because of his play last week but I am curious why he would not be a fit there. I am sure it is not his best position but that seems to be a problem for this whole position group and someone has to play it. I think we had George Koonce and an old Hardy Nickerson in our 90's 4-3 heyday, neither were great players. Sometimes you just need to plug in savvy vets to fix a glaring weakness. Packers.com depth chart lists Hopper as the backup at MLB but I don't think his pass defense is there yet.

It's a new scheme, I am not giving up on Walker but we all seem to be in agreement he is a better fit at will. Maybe you are right and Cooper is the eventual plan.  

Wilson CAN play MLB.  But so can I. Doesn't mean he should.

Wilson had a great game last week but his history is the of a below average starter and never at MLB. There is  a reason he is our first LB off the field.  Not to mention taking turns with Cooper.  He is best as a backup and ST.

In four years as a MN starter, Wilson only had one season close to the same stats as Walker put up in both his first two years.  And he had 3 years of significantly less production.  MN thought so much of him that they let him walk in FA. He bounced between two teams the next year before sticking with us as a ST specialist. 

Koonce was an UDFA LB that was developed over several years and not a savvy vet that we plugged into the defense and made an immediate difference. Koonce's first two years were just about the same as Walker's.  Koonce didn't do anything significantly better until year 5.  And that was one year and then he fell off the cliff after that. 

 

[BrewerFan]

On 9/18/2024 at 10:42 AM, Joseph Zarr said:

I need to find someone who stands up for me the way y'all are standing up for Quay. He's a very athletic not very good NFL football player. You can toss blame at other players for making him look the way he does. That's fine. At a certain point in time, the primary play-calling ILB has to actually make the plays. Quay routinely does not. Kenny Clark hasn't graded out (or played) all that well early in the shift to 4-3. BUT, I have 10x more faith Clark turns it around given his historical year-in and year-out performances for the Packers. I'll say it again: if he wasn't a premium draft pick, Quay wouldn't be playing

I need someone who remembers me one day as you remember Jeff Janis. Jeff Janis=Luke Musgrave! Or...pretty much any 26-year-old pitcher in HiA/back up AA catcher who you're...in love with! With respect Joseph, I'm not sure you're the guy to talk about people standing up for players too much!
 

Also, when did this become a Walker vs Clark conversation? Because I said it was Clark who was at fault on that particular play? Clark has been regressing, but I've also got confidence he'll thrive in this scheme...just as Quay will. 

If you want Quay Walker blowing up Ryan Kelly...in space, then making a tackle on Jonathan Taylor in the open field, Ray Lewis and Ray Nitchke's hybrid offspring will disappoint!

And no, there's no shot that Eric Wilson is playing more than Quay at MLB or elsewhere irrespective of draft slot. He had a pick and a high grade on 7 snaps. He's a very nice backup. 

 

We're two weeks in and aside from the usual suspects who declare the season over before it begins like Sixto or whoever, maybe give this team and Quay a bit more time in the system before we crucify him.

That pick may have been Xavier McKinney...but that's a LB, Quay Walker running with De'Vonta Smith step for step 30 yards down the field forcing that throw. 

That are a handful of LBers in the league who are making that play...and they sure as hell aren't Eric Wilson, McDuffie...Cooper may be one of them(though I think he's better around the LOS, but we'll see). 

Quay's main responsibilities have been spying Hurts, Richardson, dropping into coverage and then playing the run...the last is a given. But I know Herman's grading system. If he spys Richardson and does nothing else on the play, he's done his job...and he's gotten at best a neutral or worse grade. 

 

 

 

Let's check back here at the end of the season and see what Walker and Cooper have done....and for that matter, Musgraves as...I feel pretty confident whatever his early season struggles, he'll once again easily surpass the sum of Jeff Janis' entire playing career in 8-9 games once again this year...though, Kraft has been a much better matchup and clearly taken his game up a notch. 

 

This has to be the most negative Packers threads, particularly for a team that lost a 1 score game vs a top 3 team in the NFC and then won with Malik Willis(who...again, was already written off) that I've seen in years. 

[Joseph Zarr]

I get it. You believe in Quay Walker and his abilities and are comfortable giving him a longer leash as a fan. I support you to this end. As I said originally: I really want Quay to succeed and I really want him to be a dynamic player. I haven't seen that but for a glimpse here and there. I personally think he's a problematic talent. And, this is my opinion. I don't feel as tho I need to elucidate further here. Hafley clearly is fully invested in Quay so hopefully that pays big dividends. 

I also am 'down' on Musgrave. Yes. Also my opinion. Completely fine disagreeing and seeing it entirely differently. No harm no foul. I understand TE's are typically slow-developing talents. I think recent developments there would tell you really talented TE's can develop earlier in today's game. But, alas, there is a historical precedent here. 

I am not losing a tick of sleep or thought on any of this, however. Just so we're on the level. I'm also fine being entirely 'wrong' on both players. They're both very young - always a plus when they have the raw athletic tool kits - and players evolve and mature as professionals at different speeds. That would be a fantastic development. I'm definitely open to it happening. And, because I view it differently doesn't mean I'm being a negative nelly. I just want the Packers to win, to experience success, and I want to enjoy the results as a fan. That's pretty much it.