2024-25 Milwaukee Bucks thread

[sveumrules]

18 minutes ago, patrickgpe said:

The cost would be much more. One first and a few 2nds is not enough draft capital. Brooks and Green are nice players but Giannis in his prime is worth way more than that.  the grizzlies got more for bane than this. 

Yeah, if the Rockets wanted Giannis package would need to be more like Green, Amen and Jabari Smith Jr., plus #10 in this year's draft, and the 2027 firsts they are owed from Brooklyn and Phoenix.

But it doesn't matter because Giannis doesn't have appear to have any real desire to leave MKE at the moment.

[patrickgpe]

17 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

Yeah, if the Rockets wanted Giannis package would need to be more like Green, Amen and Jabari Smith Jr., plus #10 in this year's draft, and the 2027 firsts they are owed from Brooklyn and Phoenix.

But it doesn't matter because Giannis doesn't have appear to have any real desire to leave MKE at the moment.

I agree it doesn’t matter, but did you see what they allegedly asked  from the spurs. Players and 10 firsts. 

[HarryDoyle]

 

[HarryDoyle]

Three players, and star players at that, tearing their Achilles this postseason is not a good look. What is going on on the hardcourts lately? What's changed? This can't be a coincidence.

[sveumrules]

18 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

Three players, and star players at that, tearing their Achilles this postseason is not a good look. What is going on on the hardcourts lately? What's changed? This can't be a coincidence.

Lillard and Haliburton both probably came back from injury too soon, especially considering the increased intensity of the playoffs.

Tatum had more or less been the healthiest All NBA calibre player for his eight years in the league and had six deep playoff runs in there too, he was probably just due for something big.

12th among active players in postseason minutes, the 11 guys ahead of him have a combined 178 seasons in the league for an average of 16 seasons each.

[nate82]

7 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Yeah, if the Rockets wanted Giannis package would need to be more like Green, Amen and Jabari Smith Jr., plus #10 in this year's draft, and the 2027 firsts they are owed from Brooklyn and Phoenix.

But it doesn't matter because Giannis doesn't have appear to have any real desire to leave MKE at the moment.

I don't think you get that.  If the Bucks wanted to trade Giannis I think the deal the Rockets gave up for Durant is close to what the Bucks would receive.  They may get another first but I don't think they would get much more than that.  

[sveumrules]

9 hours ago, nate82 said:

I don't think you get that.  If the Bucks wanted to trade Giannis I think the deal the Rockets gave up for Durant is close to what the Bucks would receive.  They may get another first but I don't think they would get much more than that.  

Durant is going into his age 37 season an an expiring contract. Rockets will probably need to extend him around $60M AAV through age 40.

In the five years since his Achilles he has made All NBA 2nd team twice with high finishes of 9th and 10th in MVP voting those seasons.

Giannis is going into his age 31 season with two guaranteed years on his deal. He wouldn’t be the age Durant is now until the end of the extension he would sign with a theoretical acquiring team.

He’s been All NBA 1st team the last seven years (six unanimous selections) and hasn’t finished lower than 4th in MVP voting any of those seasons.

The difference in value between Giannis and Durant is considerably larger than maybe one more first round pick.

[nate82]

2 hours ago, sveumrules said:

The difference in value between Giannis and Durant is considerably larger than maybe one more first round pick.

I don’t believe this to be true.  Yes it is two years and Giannis is younger but I think the gap between Giannis and Durant is far closer than you think it is.  Giannis has been great but if his body starts to break down he is looking more like an old center with no shooting game.  A slower Giannis is basically Dwight Howard.  You have to bake that into any evaluation of Giannis.  If he gets slower or is slowed down by some injuries you can’t rely on his shooting game as it is non existent.

Giannis is a great player but I don’t believe he is worth considerably more than Durant.  Comparing Durant and Giannis in the NBA All Teams is like comparing MLB players based on the number of all star games they get elected to.

[LouisEly]

20 minutes ago, nate82 said:

I don’t believe this to be true.  Yes it is two years and Giannis is younger but I think the gap between Giannis and Durant is far closer than you think it is.  Giannis has been great but if his body starts to break down he is looking more like an old center with no shooting game.  A slower Giannis is basically Dwight Howard.  You have to bake that into any evaluation of Giannis.  If he gets slower or is slowed down by some injuries you can’t rely on his shooting game as it is non existent.

Giannis is a great player but I don’t believe he is worth considerably more than Durant.  Comparing Durant and Giannis in the NBA All Teams is like comparing MLB players based on the number of all star games they get elected to.

Giannis, right now, is also a much better defender than Durant.  Giannis defensive win shares = 0.109; Durant = 0.056.

In the few games I saw last year, Durant didn't put in a whole lot of effort on the defensive end.

[Joseph Zarr]

Great orgs have a great GM (and an ownership team giving said GM the green light to do their work) and consistently do great things. Bad orgs consistently do bad things. I think it is very fair to say the Bucks likely exist on the fringe waffling between bad org and mid-tier org line. They've won a title in the last five years so there definitely is that (never thought I'd see it in my lifetime - yay for us!). Yet, the Bucks quite simply consistently make the wrong decisions crippling their club in the near and long term. I mean, the Bucks actually targeted Kyle Kuzma and gave up their best young asset to do it - continues to be an incredible feat. Today feels like a great time to give GM Sam Presti his well deserved flowers. Man, he has just steadily and steadily acquired assets and steadily built OKC into a Championship program that truly is set up to make a run at a Dynasty. They have two 1sts in the upcoming NBA draft. They have four 1sts in 2026. The Bucks are going to have to stretch mid-30's Pat Connaughton after he predictably opted in and the Bucks do not outright own their 1st round pick until 2031 and you absolutely know they'll look to trade it regardless. The Bucks are paying three Head Coaches. They are paying Glenn Rivers $10 Milly per season. There is a chasm in organizational competence. I, for one, was incredibly happy to see Presti rewarded for years of incredible GM'ng. A well deserved trophy and they are set up for many more if things roll their way. 

[nate82]

The Thunder did a full tear down at one point.  The Bucks haven’t done that ever.  It is not really an apples to apples comparison when you are comparing where the Bucks are and where the Thunder are.  The Bucks could get to that point but it would require doing something the fans will revolt at.

This means trading Giannis if you want a future like the Thunder have now it means doing that.  If you are unwilling to make the painful trade then we are stuck where we are.  There isn’t an out where the team gets good enough to win another championship with Giannis on the team.  Giannis is the only asset the Bucks have that has any meaningful value.  Dame with his injury is dead money right now.  When he returns he will have a lower value.  The Bucks may get a first for Dame but it will be a protected 1st.  After Dame and Giannis there is absolutely no one on the Bucks who has any positive value.

It feels like I have been complaining about Connaughton for a long time.  He has always been a chicken with its head cut off defender.  But a lot of people like him because they see him hustling all of the court.  The problem with this is that Connaughton puts himself in these positions where he has to go all out because he left his assignment or drifted into the wrong spot on defense.  Nearly all of the plays you see Connaughton flying around in were not hustle plays but brain dead decisions made by Connaughton that put him in a bad spot or position.  Since he has gotten older he can no longer make up for these mistakes with his athleticism so it is now glaring how bad he has been.

The Bucks also never planned for life after Middleton.  They never addressed this issue.  They addressed the offensive need at the point with Dame.  As much as everyone hates the HC Giannis wanted he was running a better offense with the players he had.  It is just that Giannis has never been a good pick and roll player.  He still looks very uncomfortable on where he should go on a pick and roll.  The Bucks have the perfect player to do this in with Dame but Giannis just isn’t the complement he needs to be in the pick and roll game.

Right now the Bucks are stuck in neutral.  They can either go in reverse and keep Giannis and trade away more future assets or they can shift ahead and trade Giannis.  I think the Bucks are going to stay in neutral.  They are stuck and won’t move either way.  This is the Kohl years all over again.

[sveumrules]

2 hours ago, nate82 said:

Giannis is a great player but I don’t believe he is worth considerably more than Durant.  Comparing Durant and Giannis in the NBA All Teams is like comparing MLB players based on the number of all star games they get elected to.

There are only 15 All NBA spots every year. NBA All Star spots would be the appropriate comparison for MLB All Star spots.

Giannis is pretty much a consensus Top Four guy in the sport based on his selections to 1st Team seven years in a row and finishing no lower then 4th in MVP voting during that time.

Durant is more like a Top Twenty or so guy at this point, he only impacts one end of the floor and on a limited basis due to his health/age. Desmond Bane got Memphis a better trade return (KCP, Cole Anthony, four unprotected FRPs, and a swap) a week ago than Durant just got the Suns.

[Joseph Zarr]

31 minutes ago, nate82 said:

The Thunder did a full tear down at one point.  The Bucks haven’t done that ever.  It is not really an apples to apples comparison when you are comparing where the Bucks are and where the Thunder are.  The Bucks could get to that point but it would require doing something the fans will revolt at.

This means trading Giannis if you want a future like the Thunder have now it means doing that.  If you are unwilling to make the painful trade then we are stuck where we are.  There isn’t an out where the team gets good enough to win another championship with Giannis on the team.  Giannis is the only asset the Bucks have that has any meaningful value.  Dame with his injury is dead money right now.  When he returns he will have a lower value.  The Bucks may get a first for Dame but it will be a protected 1st.  After Dame and Giannis there is absolutely no one on the Bucks who has any positive value.

It feels like I have been complaining about Connaughton for a long time.  He has always been a chicken with its head cut off defender.  But a lot of people like him because they see him hustling all of the court.  The problem with this is that Connaughton puts himself in these positions where he has to go all out because he left his assignment or drifted into the wrong spot on defense.  Nearly all of the plays you see Connaughton flying around in were not hustle plays but brain dead decisions made by Connaughton that put him in a bad spot or position.  Since he has gotten older he can no longer make up for these mistakes with his athleticism so it is now glaring how bad he has been.

The Bucks also never planned for life after Middleton.  They never addressed this issue.  They addressed the offensive need at the point with Dame.  As much as everyone hates the HC Giannis wanted he was running a better offense with the players he had.  It is just that Giannis has never been a good pick and roll player.  He still looks very uncomfortable on where he should go on a pick and roll.  The Bucks have the perfect player to do this in with Dame but Giannis just isn’t the complement he needs to be in the pick and roll game.

Right now the Bucks are stuck in neutral.  They can either go in reverse and keep Giannis and trade away more future assets or they can shift ahead and trade Giannis.  I think the Bucks are going to stay in neutral.  They are stuck and won’t move either way.  This is the Kohl years all over again.

The Kohl Years indeed. 

I am in zero ways advocating for a Giannis trade. You give everything you have to build around that man. Period. You live and die with those results. I am merely pointing out the Bucks as an org have mostly struggled in that regard. My personal opinion is they are likely dealing with a way too many cooks in the kitchen scenario...while also trying to appease their superstar. Every step forward is most definitely greeted by two steps back. I still repeatedly bang my head against the process that landed them at Glenn Rivers and then, as a basketball think tank, literally targeting one of the absolute worst starters in the entire League for two seasons. Man, I actually fell for the first two weeks of Kuz. My goodness, he is truly an atrocious NBA player. They traded a franchise icon at his lowest value - paid a premium young price in doing so - and acquired an even worse asset that is now also at his lowest value. It's an uncanny set of moves. I am both covering my eyes and drooling at what intrepid moves the Bucks brass will make this off-season. Can they defy their propensity for boneheaded moves? I have large doubts.

 

[LouisEly]

4 hours ago, Joseph Zarr said:

I mean, the Bucks actually targeted Kyle Kuzma and gave up their best young asset to do it - continues to be an incredible feat.

I think it's been very well established that A.J. Johnson was who they had to give up and Kuzma was who they had to take back in order to get out from Middleton and his contract in order to get under the 2nd apron.

They also got Jehrico Sims back, who I believe you are the driver of the bandwagon. 😉

So, the Bucks gave up Middleton and A.J. Johnson and got back Kuzma, Sims, and 2nd apron relief.   They had to give up something and take something back to get rid of Middleton.

[HarryDoyle]

PC picks up his option and also Middleton with Washington.

[Joseph Zarr]

3 hours ago, LouisEly said:

I think it's been very well established that A.J. Johnson was who they had to give up and Kuzma was who they had to take back in order to get out from Middleton and his contract in order to get under the 2nd apron.

They also got Jehrico Sims back, who I believe you are the driver of the bandwagon. 😉

So, the Bucks gave up Middleton and A.J. Johnson and got back Kuzma, Sims, and 2nd apron relief.   They had to give up something and take something back to get rid of Middleton.

I like Jericho Sims, yes, for what he does on the basketball court. I understand the 2nd Apron part of the deal. Kyle Kuzma might be the worst per/minute player in the entire NBA. Heck of a price to pay for the rationale of he will help a team win games which is apparently what Giannis demands. He is flat out a net negative influence in any line ups. He is flat out an even greater negative influence when Glenn Rivers is making the starting line ups and substitutions. And, now that they are under the 2nd apron...what mighty plans will the great John Horst muster to make another run at a Championship? We shall see. My faith is very Low. BUT, with that comes zero expectations. I would love to be completely surprised and thrilled. I absolutely so not expect to experience those feelings.🫠

[Guest]

Brad Stevens is a great GM.  This Jrue deal is hilariously good for Boston.  Don't understand why Portland is paying Boston to help get out of Jrue's bad deal?

[Joseph Zarr]

What a truly strange start to the NBA off-season. These current deals definitely feel 'off'. First Portland taking on Jrue's salary. Now this?

OK? I guess?

McCollum is expiring. For the Whiz it opens up a ton of cap space for their 2026 FA period. Perhaps, they know they have something brewing with their bevy of young talented guards and the impending arrival of McCollum's vet tutelage to pair with Khash's vet savvy style (if he can still run and jump, that is)? I mean, it's a salary dump. I have no idea what Dumars is thinking here? But, then again, I have little idea what the Pelicans are every thinking as an org. 

[LouisEly]

20 hours ago, Joseph Zarr said:

Kyle Kuzma might be the worst per/minute player in the entire NBA.

That may very well be true.  But he can give minutes, which is something that Middleton struggled to do for the last several years.  What they say about the best ability....

Think about it from the other angle.  What would you have needed to see someone pay MKE to take Middleton and his contract off of their hands?  

Middleton played 37 games this past season, 55 the year before, 33 the year before that, and got paid $31M last season and is due $33.2M next season.  He might be the worst $/minute player in the NBA.   I thought it was a miracle that they could get anyone to take him off of their hands AND cut $10M in salary.

[Joseph Zarr]

Let the Championship run commence:

(Yes, I am aware the account is very much unsourced and this is likely a joke post)

[HarryDoyle]

 

[Joseph Zarr]

I have to say, I like both these deals for the Bucks of Milwaukee. Bobby was a ridiculously favorable deal (given the Market). I don't like the Player Option but the Bucks almost always sweeten their deals with 'PO's'. Is what it is. 

This is essentially a 1 year deal. Given KPJ's talent level and what he offers the Bucks in particular, not a lot to dislike regardless at that price.

[Joseph Zarr]

And, they just can't help themselves. In a vacuum Prince on a minimum deal is fine - he is an elite shooter. BUT, the context here: another PO and Glenn Rivers is your HC. Glenn likes to view Prince as a starting 2.  If this move came with an intelligent HC, I'd be completely neutral. As things stand today, I wish they had moved on. Not a lot of creativity here whatsoever. Don't trust the HC to have any clue of how to properly use this player.

 

[HarryDoyle]

Lopez is officially gone. Signs a two year deal with the Clippers.

[homer]