First of all, let me say that you addressing us as "gentleman" makes me regret my lack of owning a monocle. Secondly, all I want is objectivity -- in all things, but especially when it come to my geek-dom of baseball. I don't think this is an objective discussion by any stretch of the imagination. I feel like last season I tried to stay away from calling the 'support Yuni' crowd unreasonable, or irrational, just out of touch with reality, or (worse, to me...) not objective. But honestly that's how I feel about it... and I sincerely doubt I'm alone. I feel like facts & evidence weren't enough to explain to *some* folks just how bad Betancourt was, is, and will likely continue to not be. None of that matters, because certain people had allied themselves with supporting Yuni only because he got so much hate. I don't begrudge people feeling like a player is being unfairly singled out. What I do begrudge people is ignoring the evidence presented. This isn't a case of lots of fans lining up to rail against Betancourt, and then there needs to be 'an opposition'. This wasn't a large group of fans coming up with some preconceived agenda (imo, unlike the 'defend Yuni' camp). This was a large number of very well-informed, intelligent baseball fans examining the evidence available & then coming to a logical conclusion. I do honestly feel that some, or even many people have been fair & objective about Yuni (whether they loathe him, or feel that he's wrongly dogged). However, some have just hitched their wagons up to oppose almost whatever bad is said about Betancourt, because, goshdangit, he doesn't deserve so much criticism. The criticisms of him are very much based in facts, reality, & objectivity. I think the defending or touting of him is based in delusion, I really do. You really have to invent ways to explain how Betancourt was actually not a horrible player last season. And I do genuinely apologize for being so confrontational on this, but I think the BF.net crowd that sees Yuni for the incompetent MLB SS that he is he has 'played nice' in this discussion for far too long. I think this is important, as the discussion centers around whether or not fans/posters are able to be objective, & accept factual evidence as proof of something. I think that's really important to the larger discussion(s) that take place at BF.net. Also, I think you've opened up a huge can of worms by bringing in the Gooden comp. The NBA/Bucks fans here will feel a LOT differently about Gooden, if I have to guess (based on reading the Bucks/NBA thread this winter in the OT forum).