04/16/2006 Brewers (Sheets) @ Mets (Bannister) 12:10 PM, CST

[bwi]

But that's framing the argument completely differently.

 

No it isn't. Im talking runners on 2nd and 3rd, runners on 2nd or 3rd, less than 2 outs. Heck even bases loaded and no outs, which we also had today. Im not a moron, I know double plays are - get this - TWICE as bad as making one out. But when you do make one out, what is the worse way to make it? You refuse to answer the question because answer is simple, the strikeout.

 

How should the argument be made? Should we just assume that EVERY time someone strikes out that if they had put the ball in play that they would have made two outs? That seems to be framing the argument incorrectly as well.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I think that would have been good for the Brewers. If Carlos is up with bases loaded more pitches should be on the plate.

 

I'm just saying, that Jenkins wouldn't have "hypothetically" struck out in that situation. Every time the situation changes, the dynamic changes. You can't assume even if they DO pitch to Jenks that he would have struck out, because likely the pitcher would have approached the at bat differently with a runner on 2nd and 3rd instead of 1st and 2nd.

[DuWayne Steurer]

How should the argument be made? Should we just assume that EVERY time someone strikes out that if they had put the ball in play that they would have made two outs? That seems to be framing the argument incorrectly as well.

 

 

Should we assume that every out on a ball in play moves runners over? That's as big a myth as the one that strikeouts are 80 times worse than other outs.

[Katuluu]

Is there a difference? Well, according to the genius's here there is no difference.

 

I recommend you watch your tone. This is an argument that has been done to death for over 5 years. You're not about to change anyone's mind in a single thread, and certainly not with your condescending attitude.

[nsimps]

Quote:

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I'm just saying, that Jenkins wouldn't have "hypothetically" struck out in that situation. Every time the situation changes, the dynamic changes. You can't assume even if they DO pitch to Jenks that he would have struck out, because likely the pitcher would have approached the at bat differently with a runner on 2nd and 3rd instead of 1st and 2nd.

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I understand. I was just trying to say that moving the runners and having them intentionally walk Jenks or pitch around him because of the day he was having wouldn't have been a bad thing.

[Silicon Based Lifeform]

De La Rosa is a Jekyl and Hyde. He's either completely unhittable or completely hittable....rarely is he in-between.

[Team Canada]

But when you do make one out, what is the worse way to make it? You refuse to answer the question because answer is simple, the strikeout.

 

I don't know *anyone* who claims that when you *know* that one out is made, a K is the worst kind. Of course if you already know that only one out is going to be recorded, you want the ball put in play. The problem is that's a complete hindsight argument. The real debate is whether you want a K or a BIP, which could possibly be a DP.

[dogs with bees in their mo]

De la Rosa and Capellan would be really good if they could actually get guys out.

[And That]

But when you do make one out, what is the worse way to make it?

 

Having a fast runner cut down at home on a sharply hit groundball and having a slow runner behind him, thus resulting in having an additional out on the board and a slower running on third?

[bwi]

Well besides depending on where the groundball or flyball was, and who was on third, etc... nevermind.

 

But I said....SAC FLY or groundball up the middle. And the guy on 3rd base is a major leaguer with two working legs.

 

It's pointless to argue here because there is a large faction of people here who can watch the Brewers continually strikeout with RISP and less than 2 outs and just assume that striking out is the same as hitting a fly ball or hitting the ball on the ground to the right side or somewhere up the middle.

 

Really, unless the IF is playing in hitting the ball to 1st, 2nd or SS will get the runner in a large majority of the time.

[mothershipconnection]

How is there anyway to make ONE out that is worse than a strike out?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/1999/07/04/brewers_pirates/t1_kendall_ap.jpg

[DuWayne Steurer]

It's pointless to argue here because there is a large faction of people here who can watch the Brewers continually strikeout with RISP and less than 2 outs and just assume that striking out is the same as hitting a fly ball or hitting the ball on the ground to the right side or somewhere up the middle.

 

 

It's pointless to argue because there's also a large faction of posters here who assume that balls in play will automatically move runners over. A popup to the 2nd baseman does nothing. A fly out to the LF 50 feet off the dirt does nothing. A tapper to the mound does nothing. A soft liner to the SS does nothing.

 

You know what they say about assumptions...........

[Silicon Based Lifeform]

Insisting that a strikeout is NOT worse than any other out is wrong.....it is worse than any other out, but it so insignificantly worse that in reality, it is no worse than any other out....the problem here is the insistance that a strikeout is not worse.....technically IT IS, in reality it is so small to not functionally matter....both sides are wrong.....sheeessshhhh

[nsimps]

Time to send in Moeller to pitch.

[And That]

But I said....SAC FLY or groundball up the middle.

 

So which is better, a strikeout or a run-scoring play? That's one heck of an argument you have going on here. Which is better: a triple-play or a grand-slam? Who knows?

[And That]

Time to send in Moeller to pitch.

 

This is why we need Durro.

[bwi]

Ok, Im sorry I even tried to say that strikeouts are bad - or simply worse than putting the ball in play with no runner on 1st base. I'll take my feeble mind and leave and because I obviously dont understand baseball.

 

You guys can sit around and come up with crazy hypotheticals with balls being put in play and hitting runners in the head, bouncing to the first baseman for an out and then making a triple play by throwing out a runner at home. That's fine. Im just the average Brewer fan anyway, I watch most games and usually hold my toungue, but watching this team early on strikeout so much with runners on third with less than 2 out has caused me to speak out a little here. Nobody wants to hear it.

[Team Canada]

Fernandez officially sucks.

[And That]

What's the score?

[mothershipconnection]

Seriously, strikeouts vs. other outs is like having someone poop in your food or poop in your food with a fly on it. Yeah, adding the fly makes it even worse, but the difference is almost nothing. You don't care because there's already poop in your food.

[And That]

Sheeter's 7.20 ERA currently stands as the best ERA of a Brewer pitcher pitching today. Hey!

[AJAY]

It's just one of those days where you wish you had a different hobby.

[jloos19]

Hmm... now I see why Fernandez was a lifer in the Minor Leagues....

[nsimps]

Quote:

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Seriously, strikeouts vs. other outs is like having someone poop in your food or poop in your food with a fly on it. Yeah, adding the fly makes it even worse, but the difference is almost nothing. You don't care because there's already poop in your food.

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Once again mothership imparts his wisdom in a form that us mere humans can understand. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Team Canada]

Ok, Im sorry I even tried to say that strikeouts are bad - or simply worse than putting the ball in play with no runner on 1st base. I'll take my feeble mind and leave and because I obviously dont understand baseball.

 

Well, you're clearly not understanding the points being made.

 

You guys can sit around and come up with crazy hypotheticals with balls being put in play and hitting runners in the head, bouncing to the first baseman for an out and then making a triple play by throwing out a runner at home... Nobody wants to hear it.

 

How about the crazy hypothetical situation of a popup??

 

You are creating hypotheticals where you already have determined that the BIP moved the runners up. There are just as many situations (popup, FC, short fly, etc etc) that *do not* move the runner.