Packers 2022 Discussion Thread

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Baloney, it's the exact same stuff he was doing last year and the year before that and the year before that. He has always worn his emotions on his sleeve when his cast makes mistakes. He doesn't tolerate them. Historically no one cares when you win 4 MVPs.  That's the standard he holds everyone to, including himself, and why he is successful. When you falter, all of the sudden people have this big problem with it. 

And again, at multiple times this season, he has said he has to be better, it starts with me, etc. Multiple times. I don't know why people just gloss over that and focus on him saying others have to be better. They do. Is everyone watching these games? The converted a 4th and 1 and lost possession solely because they couldn't catch the ball. The supposed best corner in football got torched for a deep TD. They've all sucked. 

Maybe he is sick of lazy practice habits. I don't know. I think he has earned the right to say whatever he wants about his teammates. Basically has kept this team from killing itself for 15 years. When his play drops from exceptional to above average they suddenly can't win a game. Can't imagine having to be that perfect so consistently.

Doesn't anyone really, honestly believe that Rodgers isn't hard on himself? Does anyone actually believe you can be this good for this long at this level of competition without the ability to be introspective and recognize flaws in your game? 

[adambr2]

 I know he is going to get a super long leash because of his record but I think Matt Lafleur is a massively overrated HC. I think when he was hired it rejuvenated Rodgers' career a little bit and he elevated his play quite a bit the last couple years, but the Packers have been consistently a 10-7 quality team masquerading as a 13-4 team for MLF's entire career here. The luck was bound to run out and Rodgers' play was bound to regress at some point and that's the point where we were going to see how good our coaching and leadership is, and it isn't very good. 

It's one thing to come out and lay an egg from time to time, every team does that. This team comes out every week looking like they haven't even practiced all week. They come out at the start of every 3rd quarter oblivious as to how to adjust to their opponent and correct their mistakes. It's quite remarkable to watch, and not in a good way. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

1 hour ago, adambr2 said:

 I know he is going to get a super long leash because of his record but I think Matt Lafleur is a massively overrated HC. I think when he was hired it rejuvenated Rodgers' career a little bit and he elevated his play quite a bit the last couple years, but the Packers have been consistently a 10-7 quality team masquerading as a 13-4 team for MLF's entire career here. The luck was bound to run out and Rodgers' play was bound to regress at some point and that's the point where we were going to see how good our coaching and leadership is, and it isn't very good. 

It's one thing to come out and lay an egg from time to time, every team does that. This team comes out every week looking like they haven't even practiced all week. They come out at the start of every 3rd quarter oblivious as to how to adjust to their opponent and correct their mistakes. It's quite remarkable to watch, and not in a good way. 

I don't know if overrated is the right word but it's just hard to gauge how good a coach actually is when 2/3 years the QB won MVP and is already a HOF player. I think it's totally fair to question his merits. 

He certainly deserves more than half a season to figure it out after going 39-10, but in an odd way he'll be judged more harshly than if he had gone 5-11, then 8-8, then 13-4. 

[MrTPlush]

Rodgers is an NFL QB and one of the greatest of his time. They all have egos at that level. They all are critical of everyone else. Some guys defend Rodgers and some hate him (when former teammates talk). I really don’t think his attitude is that big of a deal. Brady is an even bigger douche bag on camera and his swims in rings.

Would we prefer Rodgers pay everyone on the back and tell them they tried their best. Rodgers isn’t wrong…a ton of dudes were making pathetic mistakes in critical spots. Rodgers taking all of the heat would fix approximately zero of their issues

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Also, strongly disagree that the Packers were masquerading as anything the previous two seasons. They were really good. They were good enough to nearly beat Tampa and IMO they were the clear-cut best team in the league last year and REALLY blew it. They ran LA out of the building and consistently won tough games all year. I'd concede that their record was inflated the first year under MLF but they were a very good team each of the last two seasons.

[UpandIn]

3 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

And again, at multiple times this season, he has said he has to be better, it starts with me, etc. Multiple times. I don't know why people just gloss over that and focus on him saying others have to be better. They do. Is everyone watching these games?

He literally JUST said today he had his best game of the year(when it was obvious he had several errant throws). 

That's NOT what he's saying. That's what he said after the 49ers game...a distinction I just made.

3 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

The converted a 4th and 1 and lost possession solely because they couldn't catch the ball. The supposed best corner in football got torched for a deep TD. They've all sucked. 

Alexander was beat by a perfect throw to one of the best(and fastest) WRers in the NFL and was in NEARLY perfect coverage. 

3 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

I think he has earned the right to say whatever he wants about his teammates. Basically has kept this team from killing itself for 15 years. When his play drops from exceptional to above average they suddenly can't win a game. Can't imagine having to be that perfect so consistently.

Ahh...ok. So he's "earned" the right to berate younger players, but by god don't question him...on a Brewers forum with a Packers sub-forum?

His teammates came up pretty big last year in the playoffs, no? In fact, our last two seasons ended with him and this offense and repeated 3 and outs with a chance to put away a game or to complete a comeback. So I'd say he's fallen short of perfection.
 

And the situation with the young WRers and relying on them...that's in no small part on Rodgers. The sudden draft day trade demand, the restructured contract, the retirement talk leading to Adams wanting more security...because Rodgers couldn't commit to playing 3 more years. 

But NONE of the onus of developing young WRers falls on him? OTAs weren't important...fine. Didn't want to play in a pre-season game because "there's no point in playing just a couple of series." Ok, fine. But, in HIS words, he wants to get these guys to playing like they did when they were the "BMOC, that confidence that made them studs in great in College." ******** and berating them? That's the way to do it?

Calling out Amari Rodgers for a "drop" on what would have been a circus catch because Rodgers didn't put enough under it, that's the best way to go about it?

 

The WORST thing you can apparently do is question Aaron Rodgers...about anything...

 

2 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

Brady is an even bigger douche bag on camera and his swims in rings.

Would we prefer Rodgers pay everyone on the back and tell them they tried their best. Rodgers isn’t wrong…a ton of dudes were making pathetic mistakes in critical spots. Rodgers taking all of the heat would fix approximately zero of their issues

I couldn't care less about Brady. He's the QB of a whole different Bay team that I have absolutely no emotional(or financial) investment in. 

And Rodgers taking ALL of the heat? No, that wouldn't fix anything. Rodgers taking NONE of it this week? Is that fixing any of their issues?

One of those guys making critical mistakes...is #12. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Post is just so full of straw men I don't know where to start. 

For one, he actually did say that HE has to play better on McAfee THIS WEEK. I guess you missed that. And again, I'm sorry but you're just wrong, he has said that after pretty much every loss this season. He was also saying this exact same thing about young guys in August, but they hadn't lost yet so it was perfectly fine. 

I guess if he isn't 158.3 he's not allowed to say anything about anyone else on the team? 

It's just damned if you do, damned it you don't. He's either throwing guys under the bus or he doesn't really care about winning if he stays quiet. Rough crowd I guess. 

Lastly...you are really hung up on his highest graded game thing. He didn't even say it was a great game. Do you know that the game grades are administered by the staff after film? That's just a factual thing he's saying. Just because it's his highest graded game doesn't mean there aren't errant throws. I suspect that if Rodgers has been saying the same thing about preparation problems for 3 months, there is probably something to it, but maybe not, maybe Skip Bayless has the answers.

And as far as criticizing Rodgers goes, LOL, I've been burned at the stakes here for that over the years. I couldn't care less about rushing to his aid. I just find it completely laughable watching this predictable cycle unfold every time they drop a few games. I really hope they do turn it on, not just as a fan, but to see everyone pull back on this stuff again. It's funny.

[MrTPlush]

8 hours ago, UpandIn said:

 

One of those guys making critical mistakes...is #12. 

He is the QB, he is going to make critical mistakes every single game...whether they lose or win by 40. He touches the ball on 99.9% of the offensive snaps.

Aaron Rodgers is still #9 in the NFL in QB rating. But of course, we insist on constructing a team that requires him to be #1 in the NFL. We insist on assuming a HOF QB can just make terrible receivers look good. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I also find bringing up the last 2 playoff losses kinda funny as some sort of dagger point that Rodgers is this huge problem. The one 2 years ago he clearly outplayed his counterpart who threw 3 picks in the 2nd half. Last year, not a good game by any measure but one in which they still win if they can block on a punt...or if Aaron Jones runs the correct way on a long pass.

So uh, no, his teammates did not come up big.

Not really bagging on Jones here but it's just the point that everyone on the roster makes mistakes and zeroing in on a game's last possession has always been pretty lame in my view.

Just pretty funny watching everyone unanimously agree this stuff is all his fault years later because they've now decided he is to blame. 

[endaround]

Football Outsiders film room did a break down of the Washington game:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2022/fall-aaron-rodgers-and-green-bay-packers

TL,DR: Rodgers isn't helping by rushing his throws but the big issue is that there are zero NFL quality WRs playing right now to make the offense work.

 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

42 minutes ago, endaround said:

Football Outsiders film room did a break down of the Washington game:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2022/fall-aaron-rodgers-and-green-bay-packers

TL,DR: Rodgers isn't helping by rushing his throws but the big issue is that there are zero NFL quality WRs playing right now to make the offense work.

 

I don't know if its that they have zero quality WRs so much as the receivers they do have are miscast. Lazard is a quality NFL WR, but he doesn't have the skillset to operate as a #1 WR and regularly beat the opposing team's #1 corner. But as a #2 or a slot guy, Lazard is a matchup nightmare due to his size, strength and requisite speed. Doubs has a ton of talent, but he's a rookie and makes those kind of mistakes. Watkins looked washed to me in that game though. I think he might be done.

[MrTPlush]

Clearly there isn't a ton of trust with the receivers. That 4 and 1 would have been pretty classic Rodgers to fake that short throw to throw deep to Watkins. He had man coverage and the safety was in total no man's land.

Instead he went with the low risk throw option to just get the first down and keep churning down the field with a new set of downs. Unfortunately, Doubs isn't good enough to make the play and drops it. Watkins route pushed the defender far enough over that he didn't get a direct run at Doubs (also slowing him down a bit), Doubs runs a good route, and Rodgers placed the ball perfectly. Doubs just couldn't catch the ball...which really isn't asking for a lot. It was such a simple and easy play to get the first down, but when you have an unfamiliar rookie it just makes everything easier said than done. 

This offense just isn't going to get going if it can't make those types of plays. They can bring in a WR and it will certainly help if it is a legit #1...but they aren't going to magically be a Nelson/Adams type guy that is dependable play after play. Losing Cobb, the only 'on the same page' guy, really hurts this team. I don't know that they can really fix this midseason. This is the type of thing that needed to be addressed in the offseason for it to matter this year. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

To be "done" Watkins would have had to have started at some point. He's been bad since his 2nd year in the league. It was worth kicking the tires on a 1st round talent who never played on really good teams, but he's not the answer. I think there is more going on than just bad WRs, but we have very bad WRs. Lazard is "fine", he is not a #1. Cobb is ... Cobb. Amari Rodgers is awful. Watson is useless right now, and Doubs isn't going to help right now. Our best pass catcher is legitimately Aaron Jones.

[adambr2]

It seems to me, the way this team was constructed, we were supposed to have an elite defense that carries us. The offense is supposed to just have to do "enough". 

 

Obviously, neither unit is holding up its end of the bargain but I had very high expectations for this defense. Like top 3. They've invested a ton of money and now two MORE 1st round picks in this defense. This is supposed to be one of the better Packer defenses of our lifetimes. And again they continue to be ok, but not next level, and at this point we need that next level to win because we do not have the weapons offensively to win track meets. 

 

Maybe it's because they've been on the field too much. Maybe it's Joe Barry. All I know is, they haven't been good enough. 

[bjkrautk]

6 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

Clearly there isn't a ton of trust with the receivers. That 4 and 1 would have been pretty classic Rodgers to fake that short throw to throw deep to Watkins. He had man coverage and the safety was in total no man's land.

Instead he went with the low risk throw option to just get the first down and keep churning down the field with a new set of downs. Unfortunately, Doubs isn't good enough to make the play and drops it. Watkins route pushed the defender far enough over that he didn't get a direct run at Doubs (also slowing him down a bit), Doubs runs a good route, and Rodgers placed the ball perfectly. Doubs just couldn't catch the ball...which really isn't asking for a lot. It was such a simple and easy play to get the first down, but when you have an unfamiliar rookie it just makes everything easier said than done. 

This offense just isn't going to get going if it can't make those types of plays. They can bring in a WR and it will certainly help if it is a legit #1...but they aren't going to magically be a Nelson/Adams type guy that is dependable play after play. Losing Cobb, the only 'on the same page' guy, really hurts this team. I don't know that they can really fix this midseason. This is the type of thing that needed to be addressed in the offseason for it to matter this year. 

 

Alternatively, I've seen analysis suggesting Watkins going out on the deep route - rather than blocking - led to the defender being in position to affect the throw and catch, which directly contributed to the drop & failure to convert the 4th & 1.  That would make the deep route one of the "mental mistakes" we've been hearing about this week.

I've also seen analysis of another play from the game, where Doubs ran a deep post route to the middle of the field, but Rodgers threw the ball anticipating he would break off the called route and run to the corner (away from the single-high safety).  I don't know whether that counts as a mental mistake...so much as an example of why it is so difficult for receivers to flourish during their first season working with Rodgers in this offense.

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, adambr2 said:

It seems to me, the way this team was constructed, we were supposed to have an elite defense that carries us. The offense is supposed to just have to do "enough". 

 

Obviously, neither unit is holding up its end of the bargain but I had very high expectations for this defense. Like top 3. They've invested a ton of money and now two MORE 1st round picks in this defense. This is supposed to be one of the better Packer defenses of our lifetimes. And again they continue to be ok, but not next level, and at this point we need that next level to win because we do not have the weapons offensively to win track meets. 

 

Maybe it's because they've been on the field too much. Maybe it's Joe Barry. All I know is, they haven't been good enough. 

 

I think this is true, and the defense to date has been disappointing...although if not for a tacky illegal contact penalty on Sunday they would've accounted for 14 points themselves on turnover returns for TDs.  

The defense has been on the field too much - part of that is inept offense not being able to move the chains, but part of it is also the defense not being good at getting off the field on 3rd downs on some long drives.  I looked at the stats, and GB is actually a top 3 defense in 3rd down % - and they're a top 10 defense in yards/game.  So, it does seem like they just pick inopportune times to struggle likely due to wearing down as the game wears on.  With the scheme Barry runs, I think they'd look alot better if the Packer offense was scoring 25+ points per game, or at least winning time of possession during the course of games.

I'd also add a big caveat to the Packers' defensive team stats being a bit smoke and mirrors due to playing against some very ish offenses and backup/inferior quarterbacks over the past month.  Their next stretch of game against what are going to be better teams could expose them quite a bit if they don't up their game (and get help from their offense)

[MrTPlush]

13 hours ago, bjkrautk said:

 

Alternatively, I've seen analysis suggesting Watkins going out on the deep route - rather than blocking - led to the defender being in position to affect the throw and catch, which directly contributed to the drop & failure to convert the 4th & 1.  That would make the deep route one of the "mental mistakes" we've been hearing about this week.

Well, regardless of what Watkins should have been doing, Doubs had the opportunity and should have still gotten the first down. I am guessing Doubs was surprised because the guy who ultimately went after him was the Watkins defender who made a smart play gambling Rodgers was going to throw short to Doubs. Should Watkins made a better attempt to half screen like Amari Rodgers did? Probably, because in the huddle I am sure it was pretty obvious who they were going to force the ball to.

The article that analyzes the game seems to be critical of Rodgers throwing the ball to quickly on that play and others…but what does one expect when the WRs are terrible and the offensive line has been really lackluster. If Rodgers is not getting rid of the ball as fast as he has (2nd fastest in the NFL) he would probably be in a wheel chair already.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

16 hours ago, adambr2 said:

It seems to me, the way this team was constructed, we were supposed to have an elite defense that carries us. The offense is supposed to just have to do "enough". 

 

Obviously, neither unit is holding up its end of the bargain but I had very high expectations for this defense. Like top 3. They've invested a ton of money and now two MORE 1st round picks in this defense. This is supposed to be one of the better Packer defenses of our lifetimes. And again they continue to be ok, but not next level, and at this point we need that next level to win because we do not have the weapons offensively to win track meets. 

 

Maybe it's because they've been on the field too much. Maybe it's Joe Barry. All I know is, they haven't been good enough. 

I agree with this. This was the play and it made sense. It was easier to do that than find another Adams right away and with the transition to a new QB coming maybe soon, his best friend would have been a strong defense. Defense does tend to gel over the course of a season though, and they have been on the field way too much.

[UpandIn]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:41 AM, MrTPlush said:

He is the QB, he is going to make critical mistakes every single game...whether they lose or win by 40. He touches the ball on 99.9% of the offensive snaps.

Aaron Rodgers is still #9 in the NFL in QB rating. But of course, we insist on constructing a team that requires him to be #1 in the NFL. We insist on assuming a HOF QB can just make terrible receivers look good. 

"We "insist" on constructing a team that requires him to be the #1 in the NFL?"

Really? We're insisting upon that? We don't have Aaron Jones, AJ Dillon, we didn't have Davante Adams who left because he didn't know if Rodgers was going to be here?

We're actively TRYING to make things tougher on Rodgers? C'mon...

[UpandIn]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:51 AM, OldSchoolSnapper said:

I also find bringing up the last 2 playoff losses kinda funny as some sort of dagger point that Rodgers is this huge problem. The one 2 years ago he clearly outplayed his counterpart who threw 3 picks in the 2nd half. Last year, not a good game by any measure but one in which they still win if they can block on a punt...or if Aaron Jones runs the correct way on a long pass.

So uh, no, his teammates did not come up big.

Not really bagging on Jones here but it's just the point that everyone on the roster makes mistakes and zeroing in on a game's last possession has always been pretty lame in my view.

Just pretty funny watching everyone unanimously agree this stuff is all his fault years later because they've now decided he is to blame. 

Who the hell is zeroing in on the games LAST possession? More like the last...8 or 9 possessions. 

You're the one saying they've built this team with the requirement that Rodgers must be PERFECT. Well...nah, not really. That defense last year was dominant. They scored 10 points. So that didn't require perfection.

The year before, he got 3 picks by his defense, 2 by Jaire in the 2nd half and did what with them? 

It's not the "dagger point that Rodgers is this huge problem," it's the counterpoint to the "Rodgers has to be PERFECT" argument. Not that he's "THE problem." Talk about a strawman?

[MrTPlush]

34 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

"We "insist" on constructing a team that requires him to be the #1 in the NFL?"

Really? We're insisting upon that? We don't have Aaron Jones, AJ Dillon, we didn't have Davante Adams who left because he didn't know if Rodgers was going to be here?

We're actively TRYING to make things tougher on Rodgers? C'mon...

Trying to make things tougher on him? I guess that depends on what you mean.

In the sense of prioritizing defense and expecting/hoping your HOF QB can pick up the slack on offense to hopefully make things happen? Yah, I think that’s kind of what the Packers are doing.

It is easy to kind of neglect things when your QB play is constantly elite year after year. However, Rodgers isn’t as mobile as he once was and I’m readily is more of a pocket passer. He can’t weave in and out of defenders when his line sucks like he used to. He can use his legs to extend plays and wait for WRs to get open after the play becomes hectic with WR running random directions. They need a good line and need WRs that have the talent/skill set to get open faster and make plays in traffic.

Gute has been slacking off trying to address these potential issues. Bahk being a crippled mess isn’t that shocking. Finally drafting a WR (almost) in the first round AFTER Adam’s and MVS are gone is too late. That should have been done 1-2 years ago so that guy is actually useful now.

 

[UpandIn]

26 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Trying to make things tougher on him? I guess that depends on what you mean.

In the sense of prioritizing defense and expecting/hoping your HOF QB can pick up the slack on offense to hopefully make things happen? Yah, I think that’s kind of what the Packers are doing.

It is easy to kind of neglect things when your QB play is constantly elite year after year. However, Rodgers isn’t as mobile as he once was and I’m readily is more of a pocket passer. He can’t weave in and out of defenders when his line sucks like he used to. He can use his legs to extend plays and wait for WRs to get open after the play becomes hectic with WR running random directions. They need a good line and need WRs that have the talent/skill set to get open faster and make plays in traffic.

Gute has been slacking off trying to address these potential issues. Bahk being a crippled mess isn’t that shocking. Finally drafting a WR (almost) in the first round AFTER Adam’s and MVS are gone is too late. That should have been done 1-2 years ago so that guy is actually useful now.

 

It means;

Quote

But of course, we insist on constructing a team that requires him to be #1 in the NFL. We insist on assuming a HOF QB can just make terrible receivers look good. 

That's just not what happened and leans into the old, "the Packers haven't spent a 1st on a WRer."

There was no "insistence."

They've invested HEAVILY in their OL. Bakh being a "crippled mess," isn't really something they "insisted on" when they made him the highest paid LT to protect Rodgers blindside, but of course they once again drafted OL in the 3rd, 4th rounds, they had Nijman coming back, they had a PB OL who's also played LT coming back. They spent a 2nd last year on an OL. So didn't really "insist" on constructing the team without an emphasis on the OL.

WRer...again, Rodgers can take the loss of Adams and put that on himself as much as anyone else. If Rodgers hadn't done an about face in the last few years and started talking about retirement, Adams would most likely be here. If they'd have gotten things figured out with Adams earlier, MVS would still be here.

Nonetheless, they did trade both 2nd round picks to try and move up into the 1st, then taking Watson in the 2nd as well as Doubs who Rodgers was touting as "different." They made efforts to appease Rodgers by going out and acquiring Cobb. Brought Tonyan back. 

They gave Jones a big contract to keep their pass catching RB in the fold, used a 2nd on AJ Dillon...

 

So it means I don't think there was any "instance" upon the Packers to build an offense in which they required the top paid back to back MVP QB to be the best in the NFL.

There has been an insistence by Rodgers to be the highest paid QB in the NFL...and when you account for the bonus money he got from the last 4 year deal that he would still be on if not for the trade demand and then mix in the new contract he signed, Rodgers needs to own a bit of that. 

Brady, Brees...they've taken MUCH-MUCH less near the end of their careers so their teams could build around him. Rodgers hasn't done that. So not only does Rodgers bear SOME responsibility for the loss of Adams...but if you're going to demand a restructured contract and then a new record setting extension and hem and haw about retirement causing the best WRer in the NFL to leave and limiting resources, then it's fair you get criticism when your play falls or, no? 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

1 hour ago, UpandIn said:

Who the hell is zeroing in on the games LAST possession? More like the last...8 or 9 possessions. 

You're the one saying they've built this team with the requirement that Rodgers must be PERFECT. Well...nah, not really. That defense last year was dominant. They scored 10 points. So that didn't require perfection.

The year before, he got 3 picks by his defense, 2 by Jaire in the 2nd half and did what with them? 

It's not the "dagger point that Rodgers is this huge problem," it's the counterpoint to the "Rodgers has to be PERFECT" argument. Not that he's "THE problem." Talk about a strawman?

Relax man. 

[UpandIn]

15 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Relax man. 

I'm relaxed. You claimed I was zeroing on on the last possession of the 49ers game. 

I'd like to know what possibly gave you that impression?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I was referring to TB NFCCG which was included in your criticism of Rodgers. He played a very good, if imperfect game. Yes they were stopped at the end. They also went against his wishes and kicked a FG on 4th down (a valid decision imo but not what he wanted). I don't think it is fair to pin that loss on him, just my opinion on that game/season. 

Personally, I think he has been the victim of some pretty cruel rotten luck in the playoff more so than his own shortcoming, roster construction, etc. They have been right there a bunch of times. It's just bounced the other way more than all of us would have wished. Bostick, losing your AP safety to a career-ending injury the year after winning the SB, a tough game with TB, being knocked off on a blocked punt to watch a team you trounced late in the year win the SB. It's been rough. History won't be kind to Rodgers in the postseason. Some criticism is always fair; I think he will take a larger portion of blame than he deserves is all.