Cameron for Melky Cabrera? Nick Swisher?

[Fatter than Joey]

I didn't say "projections". I said "stats"

 

But you said this.....

 

Because of this I don't think the production drop off will be as dramatic as the "on-paper" stats suggest.

 

A "production drop off" is a projection not stats. The projections that Russ used have age as a variable.

 

No one has ever suggested that they are absolute or divine, however when a person is using a projection based on stats, age is taken into account.

[endaround]

Keeping Cameron for a year and getting his draft picks in 2010 brings more talent than Cabrera.. If its Hall and Cameron for Cabrera it would at least make sense.

[Oldcity]

Even if the Brewers are doing this to clear salary so the can spend the money elsewhere, it's a bad deal because Cabrera isn't close to a fair return for Cameron. And if they don't add anything with the money, it will be even worse.

[splitterpfj]

I don't see anything positive about Cabrera for Cameron.

 

The point is to get better, not just different. Who cares if Cabrera bats left-handed, if he can't get on base or hit for power?

 

Nothing about Cabrera suggests this is an upgrade. He's younger, cheaper, and left-handed - none of which suggests he's a better player than Mike Cameron.

 

If the money isn't used for a significant upgrade somewhere else, this team is getting worse offensively and defensively with this move.

 

Worse pitching, worse defense, less power....but we've added a lefty bat....whoopdee-doo.

[Patrick425]

Is this supposed to be exciting? I really hope it's more than a one-for-one deal, because it just seems to me that Cameron was barely worth re-signing if this is the return.

As was mentioned before, it very well could have been that he was signed in order to "entice" Sabathia. Didn't work. Also, I'm not sure why it wasn't "worth" it anyways. Your getting player at $450k (is he arby eligible? - even so, can't see a huge raise), and still have $9.5 to play with. Re-signing Cameron did not really cost them anything, if they make this trade. It's almost like they didn't re-sign him.

[Fatter than Joey]

Apparently Buster Olney reported the only hangup is deciding how much money the Brewers will throw in?? This seems to be getting even worse.

 

Maybe it is Cameron+Hall for Melky + $$$?

[Oldcity]

Like endaround said, they would have likely received better value by keeping Cameron next year and taking draft picks for him in 2010. That or trading him mid-season.

[Fatter than Joey]

Except -- we probably would not have offered Cam Arby's.

[Patrick425]

I didn't say "projections". I said "stats"

 

But you said this.....

 

Because of this I don't think the production drop off will be as dramatic as the "on-paper" stats suggest.

 

A "production drop off" is a projection not stats. The projections that Russ used have age as a variable.

 

No one has ever suggested that they are absolute or divine, however when a person is using a projection based on stats, age is taken into account.

Oh, ok, I didn't see the stats that Russ posted (had to go back). Regardless, I think Cabrera + 9.5mil to spend > Cameron.

 

Apparently Buster Olney reported the only hangup is deciding how much money the Brewers will throw in?? This seems to be getting even worse.

 

Maybe it is Cameron+Hall for Melky + $$$?

Yeah, if the Brewers have to throw in money+Cameron to get Cabrera..then I'm not so sure about this trade.

[joepepsi]

Apparently Buster Olney reported the only hangup is deciding how much money the Brewers will throw in?? This seems to be getting even worse.

 

Maybe it is Cameron+Hall for Melky + $$$?

Does anyone else see the irony of the biggest market team outbidding the smallest market for CC, then the small market team paying the big market team to take CC's friends? This is hogwash.

 

Melky Cabrera sucks. You heard it here first.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I don't see anything positive about Cabrera for Cameron.

 

The point is to get better, not just different. Who cares if Cabrera bats left-handed, if he can't get on base or hit for power?

 

Nothing about Cabrera suggests this is an upgrade. He's younger, cheaper, and left-handed - none of which suggests he's a better player than Mike Cameron.

 

If the money isn't used for a significant upgrade somewhere else, this team is getting worse offensively and defensively with this move.

 

Worse pitching, worse defense, less power....but we've added a lefty bat....whoopdee-doo.

This basically sums it all up for me. Other than being lefthanded what good is cabrera and does it matter if he is lefthanded when he cant hit. Craig Counsell bats lefthanded as well but I dont want him in the lineup either. This trade if it goes down straight up is nothing more than a salary dump and that is very disappointing. Are we just completely giving up on 2009 already because that is shocking to me after making the playoffs this past season.

[zzzmanwitz]

Like endaround said, they would have likely received better value by keeping Cameron next year and taking draft picks for him in 2010. That or trading him mid-season.

 

Since when are draft picks worth over 9 million dollars?

[Fatter than Joey]

Regardless, I think Cabrera + 9.5mil to spend > Cameron.

 

I'd agree with this -- and I think most people here at least see the argument for dumping Cam, to go get Lowe/Sheet/Dunn/etc... but Cabrera is really uninspiring.

[Brian the Automator]

As was mentioned before, it very well could have been that he was signed in order to "entice" Sabathia. Didn't work. Also, I'm not sure why it wasn't "worth" it anyways. Your getting player at $450k (is he arby eligible? - even so, can't see a huge raise), and still have $9.5 to play with. Re-signing Cameron did not really cost them anything, if they make this trade. It's almost like they didn't re-sign him.

Yeah, you're getting a mediocre player at $450k... Honestly, I'd rather have TGJ out there in CF, and I really don't like TGJ all that much.

 

I really don't feel the team needed to shed Cameron's salary. If they're able to pull of some amazing fleeces in the near future for starting pitching, I'll gladly eat crow... but if this just paves the way for an inbound Kevin Millwood or Vincente Padilla, it'll be an extremely disappointing offseason for me. I'll reserve judgement as I always do until opening day when the roster's set, but right now, I'm not looking all that forward to the Brewers in 2009.

[giffted1]

Apparently Buster Olney reported the only hangup is deciding how much money the Brewers will throw in?? This seems to be getting even worse.

That's insane. We might as well have just declined the option on Cam and put Gwynn in center if that is the case. Melky's ops projection is only 30 points higher than Gwynn's. Yikes.

[Fatter than Joey]

If the Brewers hadn't exercised the option, would they have netted any comp picks? If so, was he a type A or B (I would assume A)?

 

The problem with this is that Cam probably would have accepted Arby's from the Brewers.

[Oldcity]

Like endaround said, they would have likely received better value by keeping Cameron next year and taking draft picks for him in 2010. That or trading him mid-season.

 

Since when are draft picks worth over 9 million dollars?

A year of Cameron playing for the Brewers plus draft picks>Melky Cabrera + $9.5 mil.

 

I do agree with FtJ that Cameron may have accepted arbitration, but I don't think that's a sure thing either.

[zzzmanwitz]

What good does a year of Cameron do when our team isn't in a position to compete?

[Oldcity]

Why couldn't they have competed? I think they were well-positioned for another wildcard run with Cameron. They had a bit of money to add one good pitcher at least.

[JohnBriggs12]

FYI: Melky Cabrera's stats in the Dominican Winter League

 

.310/.375/.362 in 58 AB's

 

Possibles in a Hall deal:

 

Ian Kennedy in the Puerto Rican Winter League:

 

2-2 1.56 ERA, 31 K, 12 BB, .164 BAA, in 34 2/3 innings.

[jjfanec]

The article from the Post says it would be at least Cabrera and maybe someone else and that if the Brewers pay part of Cameron's salary it will be to get a better pitcher along with Cabrera. So the Brewers would not be throwing in money to get Cabrera it would be to get a pitcher as well. I could get behind that as long as they do not pay too much. Cabrera is young with good upside. He does not improve the team right now, but he is a better option than Gwynn Jr. If they can get a pitcher back than great. Not a great trade, not a terrible one and it gives us payroll flexibility

[Brian the Automator]

What good does a year of Cameron do when our team isn't in a position to compete?

With still a strong core of players, and enough minor league talent to go out and "get another Sabathia" at the trade deadline, I'd argue that they would have a legitimate chance at the WC again in 2009.

 

The problem with this is that Cam probably would have accepted Arby's from the Brewers.

Throw in some Horsey sauce, and most rational people would accept Arby's from just about anyone.

[fondybrewfan]

Like endaround said, they would have likely received better value by keeping Cameron next year and taking draft picks for him in 2010. That or trading him mid-season.

 

Since when are draft picks worth over 9 million dollars?

A year of Cameron playing for the Brewers plus draft picks>Melky Cabrera + $9.5 mil.

 

I do agree with FtJ that Cameron may have accepted arbitration, but I don't think that's a sure thing either.

Well what if the Brewers didn't offer him arbitratiion next year? Then it would be Cabrera +9.5M > Cameron for 1 year. Heck if we offered and he declined arbitration we wouldn't see any fruits from the draft picks for 5 years so it could ba argued that this trade helps the Brewers out more in the next 3 years than keeping Cam for one year would have. Cam isn't exactly the type of player that "puts a team over the top" anyways although I did really like him. I see the merits of the trade but I also see why some people are pissed off since it seems like the actual player return is pretty poor

[Brian the Automator]

The article from the Post says it would be at least Cabrera and maybe someone else and that if the Brewers pay part of Cameron's salary it will be to get a better pitcher along with Cabrera. So the Brewers would not be throwing in money to get Cabrera it would be to get a pitcher as well. I could get behind that as long as they do not pay too much. Cabrera is young with good upside. He does not improve the team right now, but he is a better option than Gwynn Jr. If they can get a pitcher back than great. Not a great trade, not a terrible one and it gives us payroll flexibility

If they can get a start pitcher back, it would change the deal completely for me. I've always like Phil Hughes, even despite his major league struggles, and Ian Kennedy would be a fine addition to the team. Even if it meant dealing Hall and eating a bit of salary, it would be worth it to me to get one of those two pitchers.

[JohnBriggs12]

Apparently Buster Olney reported the only hangup is deciding how much money the Brewers will throw in?? This seems to be getting even worse.

That's insane. We might as well have just declined the option on Cam and put Gwynn in center if that is the case. Melky's ops projection is only 30 points higher than Gwynn's. Yikes.

 

This isn't the whole story according to Joel Sherman in the NY Post. The Yankees could be including a pitcher. The quality of pitcher depends on if the Brewers pay some of Cameron's salary. That makes some sense.

 

Reminder to those thinking loss of Cameron is catastrophic:

 

Brewers runs scored in 2007 without Cameron: 801

 

Brewers runs scored in 2008 with Cameron: 750