Braun, Biogenesis and the Whole Crazy Thing

[Outlander]

Excellent post JimH. There are a lot of Brewer fans out there still living in denial.

I really don't understand why anybody's opinion would change after hearing about this, on either side. A couple of weeks ago there was a verbal statement from the same guy that confirmed Braun's story so can't really agree with you.

[brewmann04]

it really a shame what going on and you know MLB is going hard at this especially after Braun was found not guility. That is still a shame how that was able to get out when it was supposed to a secret.

[burnzy24]

I really don't understand why anybody's opinion would change after hearing about this, on either side. A couple of weeks ago there was a verbal statement from the same guy that confirmed Braun's story so can't really agree with you.

 

Exactly! It's equally amazing that this "new" information is enough for some on this board to convict Braun once and for all. The only real news that came out last night is 1) Bosch was pressured enough to cooperate and 2) MLB is delusional if they think they get another 50 games for someone lying. Everything else was just ESPN recycling their previous story. They haven't even sat down and talked to Bosch yet so MLB literally has nothing more than what they did the last time around. It will take the dust settling from this story before my opinion changes one way or another.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think the problem is with the idea MLB is seeking to suspend players. Shouldn't they be seeking the facts? The only real news was that this guy Bosch, under duress, is now cooperating with MLB. If Braun is telling the truth, and we don't know that, then Bosch would have to fabricate evidence to trigger a Braun suspension. If he has solid evidence that he supplied Braun, then he'll get suspended. It's not that complicated. Why report it like it's a done deal until this comes down unless you want to jack up ratings on Baseball Tonight? Braun has already been tried and convicted in the media thanks in large part to the way ESPN has spun the story anyway. I don't see how either way this turns out, he's more damaged than he already is. I also don't expect if it turns out he told the truth about his relationship with Biogenisis that we'll hear any mea culpas from ESPN or MLB.

 

We now live in a culture where the IRS treats American citizens differently based on their political beliefs and smugly says they did nothing wrong while they plead the 5th. To think that it's not at least plausible that Braun is being railroaded here for some unknown reason is naive.

[brwrsfan]

Couple of thoughts here...

 

1 - multiple sources are saying none of the players here have been interviewed by MLB...so if that's the case, how can they penalize them for lying? It can't be strike one and strike two at the same time if they've yet to even be talked to. so...pure conjecture then by media?

 

2 - Bosch is cooperating, but I don't know how anyone can say for certain what information he has or is going to provide. He could change his mind, he might not have all that great info, or he could stick to the story that Braun used him as a consultant (sources say otherwise, but who are those sources and how do they know?).

 

3 - when this gets in front of an arbirtrator, it's going to get very interesting. Bosch will have to testify, which means all the players lawyers can question him...about his previous statements, was he lying? is he doing this just to avoid a lawsuit, etc? It could be very interesting and MLB is going to need to really prove these players got steriods solidly IMO.

[brwrsfan]

Couple of thoughts here...

 

1 - multiple sources are saying none of the players here have been interviewed by MLB...so if that's the case, how can they penalize them for lying? It can't be strike one and strike two at the same time if they've yet to even be talked to. so...pure conjecture then by media?

 

2 - Bosch is cooperating, but I don't know how anyone can say for certain what information he has or is going to provide. He could change his mind, he might not have all that great info, or he could stick to the story that Braun used him as a consultant (sources say otherwise, but who are those sources and how do they know?).

 

3 - when this gets in front of an arbirtrator, it's going to get very interesting. Bosch will have to testify, which means all the players lawyers can question him...about his previous statements, was he lying? is he doing this just to avoid a lawsuit, etc? It could be very interesting and MLB is going to need to really prove these players got steriods solidly IMO.

 

4 - be very curious to see how much info is leaked if they do get suspended, and what the players union is going do to about it.

[torts]

they're seeking the facts to suspend players

[torts]

Couple of thoughts here...

 

1 - multiple sources are saying none of the players here have been interviewed by MLB...so if that's the case, how can they penalize them for lying? It can't be strike one and strike two at the same time if they've yet to even be talked to. so...pure conjecture then by media?

 

2 - Bosch is cooperating, but I don't know how anyone can say for certain what information he has or is going to provide. He could change his mind, he might not have all that great info, or he could stick to the story that Braun used him as a consultant (sources say otherwise, but who are those sources and how do they know?).

 

3 - when this gets in front of an arbirtrator, it's going to get very interesting. Bosch will have to testify, which means all the players lawyers can question him...about his previous statements, was he lying? is he doing this just to avoid a lawsuit, etc? It could be very interesting and MLB is going to need to really prove these players got steriods solidly IMO.

 

4 - be very curious to see how much info is leaked if they do get suspended, and what the players union is going do to about it.

 

 

if the players do get suspended, the union will file grievances and appeal to arbitration just like last time. when this does go to arbitration, the direct/cross examination of Bosch is going to be insane. Ive already been thinking of how both sides will argue the facts/questions... I do not envy the panel of arbitrators at all.

[3and2Fastball]

ESPN is once again at fault for dragging players' names through the mud without the investigation process and possible arbitration process running it's course. And I strongly believe that MLB is complicit in using ESPN as it's mouthpiece for this dirty work

 

I will continue to believe Braun's side of this story unless compelling evidence causes me to believe otherwise. The testimony of a dirt-bag drug dealer attempting to talk his way out of bankruptcy and jail is not likely to be compelling to me.

 

And all of this is further evidence as to why I believe Bud Selig is an absolutely horrible commissioner.

[LouisEly]

Whether Braun did it or not, and whether he ever serves a suspension or not...this whole thing has been ridiculous.

 

No matter what ultimately happens, nobody wins in this thing.

I'm neither for nor against Braun. I am against vindictive abuse of power and kangaroo courts.

I don't care if he is guilty or innocent, I just dislike when people jump to goofy conclusions because they just read what is the mainstream media and assume things from it. He didn't get off on just some goofy technicality, there was a lot more to it than that.

This.

 

My biggest concern is that MLB agreed to support Bosch and/or "put in a good word" for him for any federal prosecution. THAT crosses a big, big line. Now I have no reason to believe anything Bosch says because he could very well just tell MLB what they want to hear in hopes that MLB helps save his behind with the feds. Way to give an incentive to tell the truth.

 

Here's a question - if players are unpaid during suspensions, and if A-Rod gets a lifetime ban, does that mean the Yankees no longer have to pay his contract? Doesn't A-Rod already have strike one for admitting PED use a couple of years ago?

[homer]

I'm gonna laugh really hard if Bosch corroborates Braun's story. That will be hilarious.

[Invader3K]

I'm gonna laugh really hard if Bosch corroborates Braun's story. That will be hilarious.

 

The thing is, he already kind of did, didn't he?

[brewcrewdue80]

Wow ESPN is a Joke! This on the Brewers Team Page:

 

MLB - Ryan Braun in Last 2 Seasons

 

Ryan Braun was second in the NL MVP voting last season and his numbers reflected that finish. Braun hit a career-high 41 home runs in 2012, which led the National League, and his OPS of .987 also led the NL. This season Braun's numbers are down across the board.

about 3 hours ago | ESPN Stats and Information

 

Great huh? Let the people who are convinced Braun is a cheater read this and say...Ha! Ha! See his numbers blow without PEDs. Who cares Braun had what? a .340 avg with 9HRs around mid May? That he's complained about his thumb affecting his hitting?

Way to spin a Stat on a guy immediately following a PED article to justify their agenda that Braun is guilty.

[homer]

I'm gonna laugh really hard if Bosch corroborates Braun's story. That will be hilarious.

 

The thing is, he already kind of did, didn't he?

 

 

Yeah, but I think anything he's said to date should be taken with a grain of salt since he's lied to everyone. Although I don't see why he'd lie about Braun's affiliation with him especially since Braun was the only player he publicly named. In which case I'm pretty confident he'll tell the same story to MLB.

[brwrsfan]

I'm gonna laugh really hard if Bosch corroborates Braun's story. That will be hilarious.

 

The thing is, he already kind of did, didn't he?

 

 

Yeah, but I think anything he's said to date should be taken with a grain of salt since he's lied to everyone. Although I don't see why he'd lie about Braun's affiliation with him especially since Braun was the only player he publicly named. In which case I'm pretty confident he'll tell the same story to MLB.

 

This is true...everything he has and WILL say needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I can't imagine lawyers in cross examination won't have a field day with that.

 

I would laugh hysterically if he told MLB Braun only used him as a consultant.

[homer]

Of course, I believe he's also agreed to turn over documents which can be spun however MLB wants to spin them.

[thebruce44]

Excellent post JimH. There are a lot of Brewer fans out there still living in denial.

 

I HATE that because I'm keeping an open mind and don't have enough information to make an informed decision one way or another some people think I'm a homer or living in denial.

[brewmann04]

so MLB can just suspend anyone they want with this guy say or do they have to go through the courts. I like how they backed him now after going on the attack and wanted to sue him.MLB acting like a classic DA .

[homer]

Excellent post JimH. There are a lot of Brewer fans out there still living in denial.

 

I HATE that because I'm keeping an open mind and don't have enough information to make an informed decision one way or another some people think I'm a homer or living in denial.

 

 

I think Braun juiced but I also believe in due process. This goes way beyond due process in my opinion. Braun beat the system. Take your lumps and go home, MLB.

[LouisEly]

ESPN has been showing the video interview from five weeks ago with Bosch where Bosch states (paraphrase) that he had no contact with Braun and provided some information to Braun's attorneys.

[brewmann04]

LOL this is too funny so if that true what has MLB have on Braun. And if he changes his tune he could be called a liar. Thanks loius

[JimH5]

Excellent post JimH. There are a lot of Brewer fans out there still living in denial.

 

I HATE that because I'm keeping an open mind and don't have enough information to make an informed decision one way or another some people think I'm a homer or living in denial.

 

I don't know enough about anybody on this board other than my interpretations of the words they write. And Bruce, this isn't at all directed at you. I just read through this thread and see some people who several years ago would have been standing on the street corner, cheering OJ's white Bronco as it drove by.

 

Conspiracy theories, information leaks, using the media to do dirty work, bending one's self into impossible yoga positions to create scenarios where Braun is innocent--or guilty.

 

I'm willing to let the system play out, and to largely believe that someone is guilty or not guilty based on how they emerge from the process.

 

All I'm saying is that it's possible that Braun did things that will result in a suspension. And even that statement causes some to get all frothy.

[narwhalattack]

Excellent post JimH. There are a lot of Brewer fans out there still living in denial.

 

I HATE that because I'm keeping an open mind and don't have enough information to make an informed decision one way or another some people think I'm a homer or living in denial.

 

I don't know enough about anybody on this board other than my interpretations of the words they write. And Bruce, this isn't at all directed at you. I just read through this thread and see some people who several years ago would have been standing on the street corner, cheering OJ's white Bronco as it drove by.

 

Conspiracy theories, information leaks, using the media to do dirty work, bending one's self into impossible yoga positions to create scenarios where Braun is innocent--or guilty.

 

I'm willing to let the system play out, and to largely believe that someone is guilty or not guilty based on how they emerge from the process.

 

All I'm saying is that it's possible that Braun did things that will result in a suspension. And even that statement causes some to get all frothy.

 

I do agree that it's possible that Braun could've taken things he shouldn't have. But for the time being we don't know.

 

And from a basic glance at what you've written it seemed that you were convinced that Braun was guilty. Of course, though, I haven't read very closely so I could be mistaken.

[thebruce44]

Excellent post JimH. There are a lot of Brewer fans out there still living in denial.

 

I HATE that because I'm keeping an open mind and don't have enough information to make an informed decision one way or another some people think I'm a homer or living in denial.

 

I don't know enough about anybody on this board other than my interpretations of the words they write. And Bruce, this isn't at all directed at you. I just read through this thread and see some people who several years ago would have been standing on the street corner, cheering OJ's white Bronco as it drove by.

 

Conspiracy theories, information leaks, using the media to do dirty work, bending one's self into impossible yoga positions to create scenarios where Braun is innocent--or guilty.

 

I'm willing to let the system play out, and to largely believe that someone is guilty or not guilty based on how they emerge from the process.

 

All I'm saying is that it's possible that Braun did things that will result in a suspension. And even that statement causes some to get all frothy.

 

I wouldn't be shocked at all if Braun used something banned to recover from injury. I also wouldn't be shocked if we somehow found out he was 100% clean.

 

But that doesn't make me a homer or mean that I am living in denial, it just means I have a technical background and need proper information to form an opinion.

[crossface21]

Bosch states that he had no contact with Braun and was only contacted for consultation. Now he'll say that he was supplying PED's to Braun? If that's the case, I'm sure the PA's lawyers are salivating at having a go at Bosch. He's already turning into a witness that can't get his stories straight. They'll light him up. How would MLB be able to justify that he's a reliable witness??? MLB is looking to make a point. They may not get the suspensions, but just by muttering the names of these players and PED's in the same sentence, they're going to win the public opinion.