Should the Packers even want Leonhard (if available)?

[HarveysWBs]

I was going to post this in the Badgers thread, but didn’t want to sidetrack it for the Badgers fans.  I’m not a big UW guy, so my angle here is from a Packers perspective.  We all know Leonhard was supposedly the top choice for D coordinator two years ago, but went back to Madison, and many Packers fans are wondering if now is the time to revisit this.

But my biggest concern is this:  as someone who does not follow the Badgers closely, I need someone to talk me through why Leonhard in Green Bay moves the needle.  I mean, maybe all this end of an era stuff for the Packers this year is making me too cynical, but the current decision-makers had three “finalists” for the DC job two years ago: 1) Leonhard, 2) Barry, 3) Evero.  Leonhard didn’t want the gig, went back to Madison and has had a challenging year this year (granted, not a great situation, and largely outside of his control).  They chose Barry who has been a lateral move at best compared to Pettine.  And the guy they didn’t want at all, Evero, has been a revelation in Denver.

Again, I don’t watch the Badgers more than maybe once a year, so maybe I’m missing the obvious.  But why should I trust that the guys who blew it on Evero vs. Barry were onto something with Leonhard?

[UpandIn]

I just love how Leonard plays. He plays aggressive, he's a LOT more creative in his fronts and his blitzes than Barry is.

He likes to play a lot of man and bring different pressures. 

The personnel in GB fits what he likes or wants to do at UW. Press man. 

He basically plays the style that Packers fans have wanted...but he lacks the athletes on the backend so he really relies on the pressure getting home, but with Stokes, Jaire, Douglas and then whomever else, I think it'd work really well. 

Also some really nice run blitzes when he knows there coming. There was one play yesterday where he looked like he was in cover 4 and right before the snap both Woheler and Latu came on blitzes on a 3rd and 4 and stopped them for a loss. 

They're generally pretty disciplined. Even this year after losing a lot of talent to graduation or injury, the defense has been alright.

I'd describe him as basically a Greg Williams type DC with a fraction of the Ego. And again, a seamless transition in terms of personnel. 

I think Campbell, Walker, Wyatt, Savage and our edges would benefit the most. 

 

As for  Evero, if he was one of their 3 finalists, I don't think it's fair to say they "didn't want him at all." They clearly thought highly of him. And he's done a very good job in Denver...but also keep in mind he took over a team with the #3 rated defense and they haven't played KC yet and they're #2 this year. So has he really made that big of a difference? I don't know, I don't watch the Broncos, but I do believe Leonhard is a perfect fit for GB. 

 

There are also people who think that the College game is more simple than the NFL game. I think Leonhard does a pretty good job of disguising not just blitzes, but also coverages(but again, it's like when Capers was in GB...if you don't have CBs, you're going to struggle). 

[yourout]

How fast can he get there?

[adambr2]

Our current defensive coordinator is Joseph Barry. 

Is any more information besides that required to answer this question?

[HarryDoyle]

Just now, adambr2 said:

Our current defensive coordinator is Joseph Barry. 

Is any more information besides that required to answer this question?

Are there worse DC's out there than Barry? Because I remember saying we couldn't do worse than Capers and then Pettine but always seem to find a way to get one.

[yourout]

Embarrassing.....

[adambr2]

8 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

Are there worse DC's out there than Barry? Because I remember saying we couldn't do worse than Capers and then Pettine but always seem to find a way to get one.

FWIW, I thought Pettine was ...not great, not good, but not dreadful.

But the cover 1 call in the Tampa game was an inexplicable and fireable offense itself.

[HarveysWBs]

Props to UpandIn for the breakdown on Leonhard, and to Joe Barry for demonstrating why Leonhard almost couldn’t possibly be any worse.

[adambr2]

At this point I wouldn't even let MLF make the hire. Almost every one of his coordinator/coaching hires has been an unmitigated disaster. He's had two enormous hand picked ST coordinator flops and now an enormous DC flop.

I don't know what it is.....but the man cannot hire a competent staff.

I don't know what you even do about that....I realize you can't really just take that control away from him...but ...I can't trust anyone he hires.

[Joseph Zarr]

At this point, from my let's make lemonade out of the Joe Barry giant sack of lemons (I mean, come on, we all know this was never a sensible hire) POV: I want Joe Barry to finish this season so he ensures we get as good and as high a draft pick as possible. These top 10 pick opportunities have historically not been the norm in Green Bay. I'd personally like as good an opportunity to roll those dice first and foremost.

 

I agree with others: Matt LaFleur hiring anyone and assembling a coaching staff has a high probability of being an unmitigated disaster. However, I'm at the point now where I honestly may just view the entire Packers organization that way. I think of so many instances of failed decision-making, choking in the clutch, mistaken FA decisions, mistaken player positional choices, sticking with unskilled or failing players/draftpicks for far too long etc. that at this point I just want some type of clear cut advantage or better opportunity. We may completely blow the picks BUT picking higher is better.

That's where my head is at today. ?

[UpandIn]

3 hours ago, adambr2 said:

FWIW, I thought Pettine was ...not great, not good, but not dreadful.

But the cover 1 call in the Tampa game was an inexplicable and fireable offense itself.

It wasn't just cover 1...it was like a Cover 1 Robber. He had safety sitting in the MIDDLE of the field...

You're PRAYING for them to throw the ball over the middle. If ever there was a time for a cover 3. I mean, I get the corners playing aggressive as it was basically the same situation you had in Atlanta when Williams had that pick 6 as the Falcons were trying to pick up 6-8 more yards before the half, so you assume it'll be to the sideline, but just putting an INJURED Kevin King on the sideline...

Still just mind boggling. 

[UpandIn]

3 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

Are there worse DC's out there than Barry? Because I remember saying we couldn't do worse than Capers and then Pettine but always seem to find a way to get one.

I was actually a Capers fan. When he had good CBs, we had good defenses and he drew up some pretty clever blitzes.

But you take Nick Collins, Sam Shields, Micah Hyde, Casey Heyward, and Tramon Williams from him and give him...Ladarius Gunter...not much he can do. I appreciate others don't share this sentiment, but he was aggressive and the way he moved Woodson around was impressive. 

 

As for Barry, I'm glad he gave Ford the start tonight...but from here on out, we should see guys like Slayton called up from the PS, Nixon playing outside at CB, Quay moving around playing the edge a bit, Devonte Wyatt should get 30 snaps a game. 

There is just NO reason to be playing Dean Lowry snaps right now ahead of Wyatt. You're building for the future(even if you'd won this game...so what). 

I really don't even care what this defense does the rest of the way. Same with the offense. It's like a 100 loss baseball team. You're just looking at the prospects. Yet somehow...I feel like Barry is going to even screw THAT up. 

 

FIRE-HIM-NOW! Johnny Grey is a very capable DC and has expressed his own frustrations(Subtely) about the style of play. Worst thing that can happen is he plays you out of a top 10 pick. 

[adambr2]

13 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

It wasn't just cover 1...it was like a Cover 1 Robber. He had safety sitting in the MIDDLE of the field...

You're PRAYING for them to throw the ball over the middle. If ever there was a time for a cover 3. I mean, I get the corners playing aggressive as it was basically the same situation you had in Atlanta when Williams had that pick 6 as the Falcons were trying to pick up 6-8 more yards before the half, so you assume it'll be to the sideline, but just putting an INJURED Kevin King on the sideline...

Still just mind boggling. 

Doing a little more research on this...it appears that MLF called the play, thinking Tampa had a timeout left. 

Someone thought Tampa had a timeout. Pettine or MLF. That's the only way the call makes any sense. 

That doesn't excuse it, of course. It's an unfathomable failure on the highest level to give that TD up on as basic of a mistake as not knowing how many timeouts your opponent has. 

[UpandIn]

I'm not sure that's the case. There may have been some question about if Tampa had a TO, but do you remember MLF after the game? He was clearly angry and while he says everything stops with him and he takes ALL the blame, I think that was on Pettine;

Quote

 

Tom Silverstein of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that LaFleur wanted a two-high safety defense, but defensive coordinator Mike Pettine misinterpreted his request and called man coverage.

The Packers had a timeout and could have used it before the play to make sure the call was right. In the end, LaFleur let the play go and the Buccaneers took full advantage.

“Bottom line is, all calls go through me,” LaFleur said. I don’t care who makes the call, it’s all my fault. Bottom line. I’m responsible for every playcall, offense, defense, special teams. Every call goes through me. If I’m ever unhappy with a call, I have the ability to do something about it. That’s all I’m really going to say about that.”

Packers safety Adrian Amos told the “Man to Man Pod” that he regretted not calling timeout to make sure the coverage was right.

LaFleur and the Packers moved on from Pettine, who spent three years as the team’s defensive coordinator.

 

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

A Joe Barry-led defense dominated the 49ers in last year's divisional round and looked every bit the part good enough to not be the reason the Packers couldn't win a title.

This year has been a disappointment defensively, but to me its just as much personnel not getting it done as scheme.  

[jerichoholicninja]

Years of switching D coordinators and drafting for defense and it still sucks. Seems more like the front office has no idea how to build a defense than anything else.

[GAME05]

How good can you possibly get at anything when your #1 goal is to not screw up? I feel like that's been the front office's and coordinators' mindsets for a good few years now. Don't get creative on offense because Rodgers will do it all for you. Same as playing 15 yards off on a 3-12 because you're too afraid of giving up the deep pass.

[nate82]

9 hours ago, GAME05 said:

 Same as playing 15 yards off on a 3-12 because you're too afraid of giving up the deep pass.

But this is a problem for nearly every team in the NFL for the last 5-10 years.  There are very few teams that play press defense on third down even when it is just 5-yards to go.  A lot of 3-yard pass plays going for 10-20 yard gains because teams don't play press defense anymore.  I think it has to do with the rub plays and the NFL not really doing anything about it other than the NFL telling the refs to just call the obvious ones. 

Those rub plays can make a 3-12 look like a 3-1 because of how effective they can be and the lack of calls by the ref's.  I don't see the NFL hampering the offensive side of the ball and if they do make any more rule changes it will be at the detriment of the defense than it will be for the offense. 

[UpandIn]

12 hours ago, GAME05 said:

How good can you possibly get at anything when your #1 goal is to not screw up? I feel like that's been the front office's and coordinators' mindsets for a good few years now. Don't get creative on offense because Rodgers will do it all for you. Same as playing 15 yards off on a 3-12 because you're too afraid of giving up the deep pass.

Eric Stokes was the #1 rated CB in press man coverage last year. Douglas was top 10(I'm guessing his pick 6's skewed that, but...all the same). Jaire didn't qualify, but obvious it's where he excels. 

Early last year in the same scenario, MLF had to explicitly tell Barry he wanted to be more aggressive. This year he inferred the same thing, they played well for a couple weeks and it seems like Barry went back to who he is. 

 

And AGAIN we saw the "Packers blitz." What is it? Just Quay Walker blitzing the B gap. But he starts 7 yards off the ball, so it's really not even blitzing the gap, it's just running into the guard. 

When you watched the Badger with their LBers, particularly when they had athletes like Chenel and Sandborn...so on, they would all have 6 sacks, they'd play the run, they'd crowd the LOS and then overload one play while a coule  

There's also been some regression;

There's no question that Kenny Clark's play has kinda regressed this year(wouldn't be shocked if he had some issue, but he's been out there).  Or maybe he's just not a good fit at DE. He's dominated at NT. Wyatt has looked great at times in his limited snaps. He should get more.
Dean Lowry has not been good. Last year he was a REALLY good starter from week 4 until the end of the year. This year he's regressed to where he was in '20.
Slaton didn't make the jump you thought he would. 

Stokes injured, played worse. Maybe that was scheme. 

 

Leonhard just does different things with both his DL and his LBers that create confusion and give his MLBer a lot of freedom to read and react...which is where Quay and Campbell thrive. That defensive front HAS to be better though. 

 

[UpandIn]

4 hours ago, nate82 said:

But this is a problem for nearly every team in the NFL for the last 5-10 years.  There are very few teams that play press defense on third down even when it is just 5-yards to go.  A lot of 3-yard pass plays going for 10-20 yard gains because teams don't play press defense anymore.  I think it has to do with the rub plays and the NFL not really doing anything about it other than the NFL telling the refs to just call the obvious ones. 

Those rub plays can make a 3-12 look like a 3-1 because of how effective they can be and the lack of calls by the ref's.  I don't see the NFL hampering the offensive side of the ball and if they do make any more rule changes it will be at the detriment of the defense than it will be for the offense. 

The best teams teams in the NFL are the teams that play press man the most on 3rd down. The Bills(over 50), KC(over 50), Eagles, Bengals, 49ers, Cowboys, Seattle.

 

You need pass rushers who can get home(we lost that with Gary, but I expect a Nick Bosa like comeback). 
You need the DBs who can play sticky. We've certainly got that. 

And then you need a DL who can get pressure up the middle. The kid from Baylor might finally be the answer. Wyatt is going to be a really good player in a 3-4 penetration type scheme(which Leonhard runs). Ika from Baylor, the 6'4 358 LB DT who can actually move, ala Vita Vea can collapse the pocket and get pressure in their face.

Quay can get pressure on the QB if you're not so predictable, or he and Campbell can play those hook zones. 

Jaire/Stokes/Douglas can just flat out cover.

 

The problem isn't playing Man, it's being afraid to and now...you lost that marquee pass rusher and Barry can't generate any other pass rush. Those rubs take time and are risky for the offense...and are passed off by good defensive teams who prepare well and see it coming. 

[UpandIn]

I liked this little breakdown of a Leonhard play.

Tell me what this pass rush could look like with Quay Walker and DeVondre Campbell(or Hollins even...with his speed).

It's just things like this...yes, they're GOING to pass this off better normally at the NFL level, but he's also likely to have better athletes. And I would reiterate, if KC is not happy with Leo Chenel, he could be a perfect fit in GB. Absolute thumper vs the run, and he was one of the most athletic MLBers to ever come out. Scored a 9.99 on the RAS which was #3 all time. 

Give me Clark, Wyatt on the DL
Quay/Chenel mugging the A Gaps
Campbell what the hell, walk him up also.

Jaire/Stokes/Nixon at CB
Douglas/Ford/Savage at S

I could see a lot of fun to be had. 

[Samurai Bucky]

So let it be written, so let it be done.