Tyrone Taylor

[KurtRussell]

He has to be the odd man out when he returns in a few weeks, right?

[Ewitkows1]

Not with the way Yeli is currently hitting...

[brewcrewdue80]

2 hours ago, KurtRussell said:

He has to be the odd man out when he returns in a few weeks, right?

Someone will likely go on IL when needed, like Yeli. With Taylor having a setback pushing that return time line further, it's hard to believe position players will make 3weeks without an injury. Someone getting hit by a pitch is bound to happen. 

[endaround]

4 hours ago, KurtRussell said:

He has to be the odd man out when he returns in a few weeks, right?

In what sense? Likely just replaces Miller on the team and goes into his 4th OFer role. If another middle IF injury occurs they'll adjust then.

[wallus]

I definitely would not trade TT this season for a few reasons:

1. He hits right handed and is a solid defender

2. He's still cheap

3. Something about Wiemer has me feeling uneasy. I have never seen a young player hit such a high percentage to the opposite field like this before. He has also benefitted from "lucky" jam hits. (the great place by the STL 2nd baseman not included) He might need a little more time in AAA but I hope I am wrong.

[Playing Catch]

22 hours ago, wallus said:

I have never seen a young player hit such a high percentage to the opposite field like this before. He has also benefitted from "lucky" jam hits.

It's funny to me that your examples are exactly what is making me feel more confident that Wiemer can stick! Opposite field, putting the ball in play with his speed.

My guess is that the Brewers have already done their due diligence with other clubs that have interest in one or more of the Brewers' young OFers. So as others have mentioned, no reason to make a move until you have to, and as Wallus implies, optioning Wiemer is very much a possible scenario, as I'm sure the Brewers want him playing nearly every day.

But if Mitchell and Wiemer (and Turang) continue to perform with reasonable success, and the Brewers feel comfortable with them playing in a possible playoff series, I think easing the "logjam," and finding a depth SP or reliever is a likely scenario using Taylor to find it.

Tyrone Taylor is 29... Wow, where does the time go?

[Outlander]

I doubt Taylor is the oddman out but probably still a while away. Didn't have a Spring Training and can't throw. 

[jay87shot]

I wouldnt call TT the odd man out, I'd rather trade Voit (Philly) or maybe even Brousseau, Miller, or Urias if Anderson is playing well still in 3 weeks. 

I agree all of the rooks have looked great but give scoting 50-100 and there will likely be adjustments and a slump that might need a short AAA stint to adjust to.

[Jopal78]

Tyrone Taylor’s best asset is he’s mediocre at every facet of the game. He’s Trayce Thompson (who’s been with 9 different organizations already): he’s just a guy who isn’t good enough to be an everyday regular but not bad enough to wash out the major leagues. 

If the Brewers are worrying about the roster status of Taylor, it probably means the season has gone really far off the rails. 

 

[sveumrules]

48 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Tyrone Taylor’s best asset is he’s mediocre at every facet of the game.

Except Isolated Slugging. Tyrone's 131 ISO+ ranks 54th out of 330 players with at least 700 PA from 2019-22. Rizzo, Machado, Altuve, and Bregman also clocked in with a 131 ISO+ over that stretch.

And playing defense. Taylor's +13 DRS ranked 30th out of 106 OFers with at least 1,500 innings from 2019-22, while his +12 OAA ranked 22nd among that same sample of 106 OFers.

[Jopal78]

3 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Except Isolated Slugging. Tyrone's 131 ISO+ ranks 54th out of 330 players with at least 700 PA from 2019-22. Rizzo, Machado, Altuve, and Bregman also clocked in with a 131 ISO+ over that stretch.

And playing defense. Taylor's +13 DRS ranked 30th out of 106 OFers with at least 1,500 innings from 2019-22, while his +12 OAA ranked 22nd among that same sample of 106 OFers.

I guess he should be starting every day then! 😜

Taylor has 729 PAs over the time span you cited. Rizzo has 1900, Machado has 2100,  Altuve and Bergman have 2000+ so your metric comparison doesn’t mean anything.

Players without an elite tool and career .300 OBPs are journeyman, as mentioned earlier, the difference between Taylor and Trayce Thompson is negligible and Thompson has already been with 8 different organizations in some capacity during his career.  

[sveumrules]

Just now, Jopal78 said:

I guess he should be starting every day then! 😜

Taylor has 729 PAs over the time span you cited. Rizzo has 1900, Machado has 2100,  Altuve and Bergman have 2000+ so your metric comparison doesn’t mean anything.

Sure it means something, it means that once adjusted for park factors Tyrone’s isolated slugging was equal on a rate basis to those players during that time span.

Of course, those other players have exponentially more PAs, the rest of their abilities make them better all around hitters.

Rizzo had a 122 BB%+, Machado had a 112 BB%+ and 112 AVG+, Bregman had a 170 BB%+ and 110 AVG+, Altuve had a 112 BB%+ and 115 AVG+.

Tyrone’s main problem is he isn’t close to mediocre at walking. His 70 BB%+ is thirty percent below league average.

He also isn’t particularly good at getting hits with only a 94 BABIP+, likely because of his 118 FB%+ (which also isn’t mediocre).

[Jopal78]

3 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Sure it means something, it means that once adjusted for park factors Tyrone’s isolated slugging was equal on a rate basis to those players during that time span.

Of course, those other players have exponentially more PAs, the rest of their abilities make them better all around hitters.

Rizzo had a 122 BB%+, Machado had a 112 BB%+ and 112 AVG+, Bregman had a 170 BB%+ and 110 AVG+, Altuve had a 112 BB%+ and 115 AVG+.

Tyrone’s main problem is he isn’t close to mediocre at walking. His 70 BB%+ is thirty percent below league average.

He also isn’t particularly good at getting hits with only a 94 BABIP+, likely because of his 118 FB%+ (which also isn’t mediocre).

If your metric suggests that Tyrone Taylor is similar in isolated slugging to Manny Machado, Anthony Rizzo, Alex Bregman, then you probably shouldn’t use it anymore. 

I do get what you’re trying to argue, but when you’re lumping one player in with some others who have three times as many PAs, it’s not persuasive. 

[sveumrules]

12 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

If your metric suggests that Tyrone Taylor is similar in isolated slugging to Manny Machado, Anthony Rizzo, Alex Bregman, then you probably shouldn’t use it anymore. 

I do get what you’re trying to argue, but when you’re lumping one player in with some others who have three times as many PAs, it’s not persuasive. 

All I am arguing is that your characterization of Taylor as being “mediocre at every facet of the game” is lazy and factually incorrect.

He is well above average at hitting fly balls (118 FB%+), hitting for power (131 ISO+), running (80th percentile sprint speed) and playing defense (+13 DRS | +12 OAA)

He is well below average at walking (70 BB%+) and hitting line drives (81 LD%+)  which are massive contributing factors to him posting a mediocre 94 BABIP+ | 95 OBP+ | 98 AVG+ for his career.

[MrTPlush]

On 4/8/2023 at 7:27 AM, KurtRussell said:

He has to be the odd man out when he returns in a few weeks, right?

It only took half a week to prove out, but this thread was incredibly premature. I don't know when Taylor is supposed to be back, but Joey Wiemer should definitely be sent down whenever that is the way things are going. 

Wiemer is 0-9 with 6 K's in his last three games. 3-20 if you want to expand that out. His ABs have been brutal to watch. 

[Jopal78]

13 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

All I am arguing is that your characterization of Taylor as being “mediocre at every facet of the game” is lazy and factually incorrect.

He is well above average at hitting fly balls (118 FB%+), hitting for power (131 ISO+), running (80th percentile sprint speed) and playing defense (+13 DRS | +12 OAA)

He is well below average at walking (70 BB%+) and hitting line drives (81 LD%+)  which are massive contributing factors to him posting a mediocre 94 BABIP+ | 95 OBP+ | 98 AVG+ for his career.

But it’s neither lazy nor factually incorrect. Pro baseball players who can run and play defense are a dime a dozen. 

Players who pop a home run here and there but fail to get on base more than 30% of the time are also a dime a dozen.

Again, I’ll cite my example of Trayce Thompson his stat line and experience is very similar to Taylor’s and Thompson has been with 8 different clubs in some capacity during his career.

Taylor is a feel good story, a 2nd round pick out of high school who never was a prospect, yet showed perseverance and beat the odds and made it to the major leagues.  
 

That being said, let’s not kid ourselves. He’s valuable as a bench player because he’s versatile and cheap. As he gains experience he will no longer be as cheap and unless he adds to his game ( ie. If he could get his OBP up to .330 he’d probably be a 10 year bet no problem) he will inevitably become less valuable. That’s the way it is for mediocre players.

[sveumrules]

3 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

But it’s neither lazy nor factually incorrect. Pro baseball players who can run and play defense are a dime a dozen. 

Players who pop a home run here and there but fail to get on base more than 30% of the time are also a dime a dozen.

Taylor is a feel good story, a 2nd round pick out of high school who never was a prospect, yet showed perseverance and beat the odds and made it to the major leagues.

A dime a dozen is a subjective figure of speech. Typically, replacement level or AAAA players would best fit this characterization in baseball parlance.

The numbers I provided are objective measures which demonstrate how much TT deviates from mediocrity (for good or bad) in those specific facets of the game.

Yes, the end result is a mediocre overall player who still has value as a CF capable 4th OF at minimum salary, but that doesn’t mean he arrived at that destination by being “mediocre at every facet of the game”.

Like pretty much every other player he is better at some things and worse at others.

TT also came in at #93 on the 2015 BA Top 100, so your characterization of him “never being a prospect” is off too.

[Jopal78]

32 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

A dime a dozen is a subjective figure of speech. Typically, replacement level or AAAA players would best fit this characterization in baseball parlance.

The numbers I provided are objective measures which demonstrate how much TT deviates from mediocrity (for good or bad) in those specific facets of the game.

Yes, the end result is a mediocre overall player who still has value as a CF capable 4th OF at minimum salary, but that doesn’t mean he arrived at that destination by being “mediocre at every facet of the game”.

Like pretty much every other player he is better at some things and worse at others.

TT also came in at #93 on the 2015 BA Top 100, so your characterization of him “never being a prospect” is off too.

That he was the #93 prospect in baseball in ‘15, 3 years after being drafted and 4 full seasons before he debuted in the majors is arguing semantics. Just as arguing a difference between labeling someone mediocre/dime a dozen/replacement level/AAAA player.

[sveumrules]

20 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

That he was the #93 prospect in baseball in ‘15, 3 years after being drafted and 4 full seasons before he debuted in the majors is arguing semantics. Just as arguing a difference between labeling someone mediocre/dime a dozen/replacement level/AAAA player.

Of course it’s arguing semantics, words have meaning and  Tyrone has put up four WAR over 729 PAs in his career. That kind of production is not generally available for a dime a dozen.

From 2021-22, Taylor ranked 146th in WAR among all position players. He ranked 55th among OF. That’s pretty excellent production for a fourth OF considering there are 30 teams with nine players and three OF each.

A mediocre, or average player will clock around two WAR per 600 PAs.

Players who actually are a dime a dozen typically come in closer to zero WAR when they receive MLB playing time. Thus the replacement level or AAAA moniker.

If you said Taylor “was only ever considered a legit prospect one time but that was eight years ago” that would be accurate, but it is not the same thing as never being considered a prospect.

[Jopal78]

23 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Of course it’s arguing semantics, words have meaning and  Tyrone has put up four WAR over 729 PAs in his career. That kind of production is not generally available for a dime a dozen.

From 2021-22, Taylor ranked 146th in WAR among all position players. He ranked 55th among OF. That’s pretty excellent production for a fourth OF considering there are 30 teams with nine players and three OF each.

A mediocre, or average player will clock around two WAR per 600 PAs.

Players who actually are a dime a dozen typically come in closer to zero WAR when they receive MLB playing time. Thus the replacement level or AAAA moniker.

If you said Taylor “was only ever considered a legit prospect one time but that was eight years ago” that would be accurate, but it is not the same thing as never being considered a prospect.

Back to the original point: see Trayce Thompson. Textbook definition of a journeyman/AAAA player, you name it. He has a 3.8 WAR in 800 PAs and he’s been with 8 different clubs in some capacity in his career. Plus, he’s been generally available twice in the last calendar year. 

 

 

 

 

[jay87shot]

I would think Weimer goes back to AAA and TT gets some consistent playing time. If Weimer spends a few weeks in AAA it gives us that extra year of control. Ultimately he is the odd man out and would make a nice add in in a bigger trade. Say we trade Corbin, Woody, or Willy by thowing in a TT type it could unlock a better secondary prospect that a team is hesitant to trade. 

[Jake McKibbin]

Just now, jay87shot said:

I would think Weimer goes back to AAA and TT gets some consistent playing time. If Weimer spends a few weeks in AAA it gives us that extra year of control. Ultimately he is the odd man out and would make a nice add in in a bigger trade. Say we trade Corbin, Woody, or Willy by thowing in a TT type it could unlock a better secondary prospect that a team is hesitant to trade. 

I thik it's also fair to say that Wiemer is looking like a hell of a higher floor than we thought, but his contact hasn't been at the level expected (lowest exit velocity in the majors) and likely just needs a little fine tuning before coming back up and putting the adjustments to good use. 

He's whiffing at a very low rate, so it's just the quality of contact, and potentially identifying pitches (which'll come with time at major league level) 

So could be a good outcome if that happens, and I'd back him to return before end of season

[MrTPlush]

32 minutes ago, Jake McKibbin said:

He's whiffing at a very low rate, so it's just the quality of contact, and potentially identifying pitches (which'll come with time at major league level) 

He has a 26% K-rate on the year and a 50% K-rate in his last five games. 

[Jake McKibbin]

8 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

He has a 26% K-rate on the year and a 50% K-rate in his last five games. 

Oops, was thinking a couple days earlier he was chasing a lot, but his whiff rate was 70th percentile. It's in 28th now (shows early season volatility eh?)

[MrTPlush]

43 minutes ago, Jake McKibbin said:

Oops, was thinking a couple days earlier he was chasing a lot, but his whiff rate was 70th percentile. It's in 28th now (shows early season volatility eh?)

He started off fantastic...not so much the last week.