Brewers' payroll discussion

[bigred]

3 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Telling other people to put you on ignore isn't a particularly helpful comment to make. Just let it drop, man.

I was simply giving a suggestion, to try and help prevent debates like this from happening again. 

[bigred]

3 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Correct, the Garza deal turned out pretty horrible after his solid 2014 season. Therein lies the risk of those types of deals, though. They can turn out poorly, and the Brewers are not in the financial position to simply write them off, unfortunately. The bigger the move, the bigger the calculated risk. The Brewers' front office has proven very calculating in their gambles. Which often leads to frequently boring offseasons, unfortunately.  

And I completely understand that. I really do. I believe our best chance to win one, was a few years ago when we had an awesome rotation. They let it pass by though. 

[wntrtxn21]

5 minutes ago, bigred said:

I did present some. Some here need to understand that not everyone has the time to dig as deep as some others here do. I've been told that there's a few people on here that either work for the organization, or have serious connections to people that do. Maybe it's them who are the ones who get offended by having their opinions and/or words challenged? Who knows. 

The bottom line is, right now the Brewers have about a 2 1/2% chance of winning the W.S. About a 4% chance of winning the NL championship. I don't see any additions that will move the needle regardless of the money spent. 

[CheeseheadInQC]

5 minutes ago, bigred said:

And I completely understand that. I really do. I believe our best chance to win one, was a few years ago when we had an awesome rotation. They let it pass by though. 

The problem is, a chunk of that time corresponded with the low ebb of Brewers’ farm system. I am generally optimistic about prospects and had been high on Zack Brown since he was drafted and even I thought it was a bad sign when he was the Brewers’ No. 1 prospect.

[bigred]

4 minutes ago, wntrtxn21 said:

The bottom line is, right now the Brewers have about a 2 1/2% chance of winning the W.S. About a 4% chance of winning the NL championship. I don't see any additions that will move the needle regardless of the money spent. 

I also cane to that conclusion years ago already. But then, like some here have said before, stop telling our fan base that they are trying to win a WS, or that's what their intentions are. They should be honest, and say the truth. Our chances rest on pure luck. 

[bigred]

4 minutes ago, CheeseheadInQC said:

The problem is, a chunk of that time corresponded with the low ebb of Brewers’ farm system. I am generally optimistic about prospects and had been high on Zack Brown since he was drafted and even I thought it was a bad sign when he was the Brewers’ No. 1 prospect.

I'm also optimistic about our prospects. Though, I'm also realistic about them, and know not all of them will continue to get better and make it to Milwaukee. So, before some get injured or fizzle out, they might as well try and capitalize on the trade values of some of them to try and get better now. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

1 minute ago, bigred said:

I also cane to that conclusion years ago already. But then, like some here have said before, stop telling our fan base that they are trying to win a WS, or that's what their intentions are. They should be honest, and say the truth. Our chances rest on pure luck. 

As do every team's. Sure, you can make shrewd moves to increase your chances, but in the end, it still takes hitting the postseason at the right time and the ball bouncing your way more often than not. 

 

Well, except maybe for that super team they've manufactured in L.A.

[bigred]

1 minute ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

As do every team's. Sure, you can make shrewd moves to increase your chances, but in the end, it still takes hitting the postseason at the right time and the ball bouncing your way more often than not. 

 

Well, except maybe for that super team they've manufactured in L.A.

Yes. As far as I'm concerned, what LA is doing should be nipped at the bud immediately. There should also be a hard salary cap and floor for every team. Unfortunately though, that will almost certainly never happen. 

[brewerfan82]

50 minutes ago, bigred said:

I also cane to that conclusion years ago already. But then, like some here have said before, stop telling our fan base that they are trying to win a WS, or that's what their intentions are. They should be honest, and say the truth. Our chances rest on pure luck. 

I think this is where we just need to agree to disagree. I have seen decades of Brewers teams "not trying" and it looked much different than the way they've operated in the past decade.

I would love to see an exciting big trade/free agent acquisition every once in awhile (and I'd argue we still do... ie. Adames, Contreras, even Hoskins, even though he had a down year in his return from injury, many doubted we could sign him this time last year and they got it done). But I also think there is ample evidence that our best opportunity to win a World Series is to be in the playoffs as often as possible, and this administration has done an incredible job with that by feeding the farm system, making shrewd moves, and making responsible decisions when it comes to drawing the line on how much we're going to pay free agents or what we're willing to give up in trade talks.

So to continually state as fact that they are lying to the fanbase about trying to win a WS and calling the fans that think they are doing a good job in their efforts as blindly optimistic or supportive of the team without criticism is both frustrating and insulting.

I think you have a fair point to be made about dipping into the farm to make some moves if the timing and and price justify it. I'd just rather hear more about specific ideas you have (Who would you have given up for Crochet? Which current prospects do you think we could use to land someone this offseason or at the deadline? Where do you think our biggest current weakness is that we could use and upgrade? Who could we go after? etc.) and stayed away from accusations against the team and fanbase in the process.

[tmwiese55]

So big criticism is not trading youth for MLB ready producers who are controlled for years, like the Yelich trade. Ignoring that just two offseasons ago they literally nailed this exact move in Contreras. And a year or two before nailed it in Adames.   While also ignoring the key to why they're likely to be good the next chunk of years is a young prospect who panned out, good thing he wasn't traded to 'go for it' to get an overpaid aging vet a few years back,   Also ignores, the Moose/Grandal signings to go for it, which is another thing this poster is calling for. They did exactly that.  They did exactly that last year in Hoskins as well.      So the criticism is "do something, why aren't you trying!!": two offseasons ago nail the Contreras trade. Last year, spend on a big contract in Hoskins.  So, they did exactly what is being asked.  I'll be really surprised if a 3B/IF move doesn't happen in the next few weeks, its probably all held up until Bregman signs somewhere then the dominoes will fall. 

They have made trades every deadline to try and help.   There is a balance or threading of the needle in a market like MKE and based on results along with feedback from all other MLB teams it seems they are doing very well at it.   

That said, I generally think a few more Moose/Grandal/Hoskins short term low risk signings is what I'd hope for and think is realistic. Issue is those situations don't always come up where the player needs to do it or is open to it.  Just last year, one presented and they did it though.  With Bregman still out there I hope they're asking, though I don't expect the player to do it (which you can't blame the FO for).

[CheeseheadInQC]

1 hour ago, bigred said:

I'm also optimistic about our prospects. Though, I'm also realistic about them, and know not all of them will continue to get better and make it to Milwaukee. So, before some get injured or fizzle out, they might as well try and capitalize on the trade values of some of them to try and get better now. 

I guess my point was, from 2020, when Burnes started to break out, through 2022, the Brewers simply didn’t have the ammunition to make a huge move of the scope of the Yelich trade. Their only top 100 prospects during that span were Mitchell right after being drafted, Frelick right after being drafted, and Wiemer, who clocked in at 100 one year. 

[bigred]

1 hour ago, brewerfan82 said:

I think this is where we just need to agree to disagree. I have seen decades of Brewers teams "not trying" and it looked much different than the way they've operated in the past decade.

I would love to see an exciting big trade/free agent acquisition every once in awhile (and I'd argue we still do... ie. Adames, Contreras, even Hoskins, even though he had a down year in his return from injury, many doubted we could sign him this time last year and they got it done). But I also think there is ample evidence that our best opportunity to win a World Series is to be in the playoffs as often as possible, and this administration has done an incredible job with that by feeding the farm system, making shrewd moves, and making responsible decisions when it comes to drawing the line on how much we're going to pay free agents or what we're willing to give up in trade talks.

So to continually state as fact that they are lying to the fanbase about trying to win a WS and calling the fans that think they are doing a good job in their efforts as blindly optimistic or supportive of the team without criticism is both frustrating and insulting.

I think you have a fair point to be made about dipping into the farm to make some moves if the timing and and price justify it. I'd just rather hear more about specific ideas you have (Who would you have given up for Crochet? Which current prospects do you think we could use to land someone this offseason or at the deadline? Where do you think our biggest current weakness is that we could use and upgrade? Who could we go after? etc.) and stayed away from accusations against the team and fanbase in the process.

I told you and others several comments ago already, that you people can believe what you want, and I'd do the same. Something about myself, is, I will always hold my ground in any discussion, especially when it's obvious that I'm being teamed up on. Lol intimidating me is pretty much impossible to do. 

 

[bigred]

1 hour ago, tmwiese55 said:

So big criticism is not trading youth for MLB ready producers who are controlled for years, like the Yelich trade. Ignoring that just two offseasons ago they literally nailed this exact move in Contreras. And a year or two before nailed it in Adames.   While also ignoring the key to why they're likely to be good the next chunk of years is a young prospect who panned out, good thing he wasn't traded to 'go for it' to get an overpaid aging vet a few years back,   Also ignores, the Moose/Grandal signings to go for it, which is another thing this poster is calling for. They did exactly that.  They did exactly that last year in Hoskins as well.      So the criticism is "do something, why aren't you trying!!": two offseasons ago nail the Contreras trade. Last year, spend on a big contract in Hoskins.  So, they did exactly what is being asked.  I'll be really surprised if a 3B/IF move doesn't happen in the next few weeks, its probably all held up until Bregman signs somewhere then the dominoes will fall. 

They have made trades every deadline to try and help.   There is a balance or threading of the needle in a market like MKE and based on results along with feedback from all other MLB teams it seems they are doing very well at it.   

That said, I generally think a few more Moose/Grandal/Hoskins short term low risk signings is what I'd hope for and think is realistic. Issue is those situations don't always come up where the player needs to do it or is open to it.  Just last year, one presented and they did it though.  With Bregman still out there I hope they're asking, though I don't expect the player to do it (which you can't blame the FO for).

They really didn't raise their payroll by much with any of those moves. I think we all can agree, that even though we're in a small market, the ownership group could easily afford to spend a little more on team salary, instead of hoping and praying for luck. 

[bigred]

11 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

The farm system is around the 10th best in the MLB by the reputable sites. I wouldn't say that's loaded. It's a young farm system that is still a year away from really being loaded. You're uninformed and ignorant about basically everything you've complained about in this thread. Maybe if you took some time and researched the organization and how well it's run you'd be happier with the great organization we have or just continue to be miserable over a hobby. Your choice.

A hobby? Lol there's a WHOLE lot of others here who should look into a mirror, say those exact words, and practice what they preach. Lol I won't resort to insults like you do. 

[tmwiese55]

8 minutes ago, bigred said:

They really didn't raise their payroll by much with any of those moves. I think we all can agree, that even though we're in a small market, the ownership group could easily afford to spend a little more on team salary, instead of hoping and praying for luck. 

So you moved the goalpost.  The exact moves you're calling for don't count unless they also do simultaneously do other moves too and the payroll has to go up.  Being smart with their limited money is somehow a bad thing. 

[bigred]

10 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

So you moved the goalpost.  The exact moves you're calling for don't count unless they also do simultaneously do other moves too and the payroll has to go up.  Being smart with their limited money is somehow a bad thing. 

I said more than once, that I never expect them to spend $200M-$250M on payroll, or anywhere near there. They can definitely afford to spend a little more than they do though So, I didn't move any goal post. The people debating with me, just don't take time to actually read what I comment and even remotely understand them. Nor do they care to, because in their minds, their opinions are the only ones that matter. 

[bigred]

5 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

So you moved the goalpost.  The exact moves you're calling for don't count unless they also do simultaneously do other moves too and the payroll has to go up.  Being smart with their limited money is somehow a bad thing. 

So, you can stop passively trying to solely blame me for how heated it got. 🤣 Have a nice day. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

[bigred]

1 minute ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

I tried explaining that last night already. Lol I hear ya though. 

[tmwiese55]

38 minutes ago, bigred said:

I said more than once, that I never expect them to spend $200M-$250M on payroll, or anywhere near there. They can definitely afford to spend a little more than they do though So, I didn't move any goal post. The people debating with me, just don't take time to actually read what I comment and even remotely understand them. Nor do they care to, because in their minds, their opinions are the only ones that matter. 

Summary:

You: They should do X, Y, Z type of moves. They don't, so they're not trying and lying to us

ME: Here are examples of the doing exactly those type of moves over the last few years

You: So what, those don't count.  They actually should spend more money.

Me: Well that's not what you said, so you're now changing.   I say nothing about 200-250 mil payroll

You:  I never said to spend 200 mil.  But spend more.

Also, not sure where the passive agressive blaming you thing came from, this was my first comment on any of this and it was purely on topic.   Though now, rather than refute the actual points and having a real discussion, you're turning into playing victim

[liveforoctober]

194 responses to this thread and 74 of them are from one person. Maybe we should consider locking and deleting this one and moving on with our lives lol. Go Crew.

[brewerfan82]

Or rename this thread "The Brewers are Lying To Us: A Discussion" and then never bring it up ever in another thread, lol.

[wallus]

This thread needs Brewers888. If you're going to go dumpster fire, you go full dumpster fire.

[bigred]

2 hours ago, tmwiese55 said:

Summary:

You: They should do X, Y, Z type of moves. They don't, so they're not trying and lying to us

ME: Here are examples of the doing exactly those type of moves over the last few years

You: So what, those don't count.  They actually should spend more money.

Me: Well that's not what you said, so you're now changing.   I say nothing about 200-250 mil payroll

You:  I never said to spend 200 mil.  But spend more.

Also, not sure where the passive agressive blaming you thing came from, this was my first comment on any of this and it was purely on topic.   Though now, rather than refute the actual points and having a real discussion, you're turning into playing victim

Playing victim? Pfft...please. Lol 

[bigred]

1 hour ago, brewerfan82 said:

Or rename this thread "The Brewers are Lying To Us: A Discussion" and then never bring it up ever in another thread, lol.

Maybe we should also change the name of this site to Brewerfanwho must agree with every one of our opinions and never challenge them .net. lol