Dodgers and their IL Roster Games - and how MLB can stop it

[Fear The Chorizo]

Mods feel free to move this elsewhere if there's a better fit on this board.

With trade deadline season fully heated up and all the assumptions of the Dodgers landing any and every impact player if they want to despite already having dramatic payroll and roster advantages over the rest of MLB, I decided to take a closer look at their 40 man roster.  They currently have a surprising amount of minor league guys and role player type arms on it, and the reason is so many of their best arms and players currently sit on the 60 day IL.  Snell, Glasnow, and Will Smith are obviously key cogs in the Dodgers' plans to try and 3 peat as World Series Champs this October - the timing of them all curiously going on the 60 day IL with various minor/nagging injury issues has to be questioned, given the fact all are appearing to readily ramp up their rehabs  and will likely be back in Dodger blue in early to mid-August - just enough time to shake the rust off and be rested/primed for another playoff run.  Add in Treinan on the 15-day IL also progressing back on schedule for a similar return date.

Current rules allow for players to be placed on the 60 day IL and be removed from the 40 man roster in order to give guys with legitimate moderate but not season-ending injuries the opportunity to get back to MLB.  I do think there's value in preserving that option, but I also think teams are gaming that system, the Dodgers in particular, to preserve health/wear and tear on their veteran players so they're fresh for the postseason.  They've essentially created a 45 man roster with using the 60 day IL, and have been able to protect losing some of their developed prospects by timing the return of their veteran studs after the trade deadline.  It's yet another advantage that organization has over essentially everyone else in MLB.  Knowing the only reason the Dodgers could be in the mix for an impact starter like Skubal is because they're stowing 3-5 of an already stellar rotation (including Ohtani with the weird "two way player" roster exemption they get) in their back pocket until the calendar gets to mid-August is particularly sickening.

I don't want to completely do away with a 60-day IL option, but I think MLB needs to strongly consider placing limits on how long that list can be before forcing teams/players onto a season ending IL where their year (regular and postseason) is done.  The Dodgers currently have 8 players on their 60-day IL who could in theory return to the 26-man MLB gameday roster, while the Brewers have 6.  That seems reasonably close in comparison until you see that the only Brewer currently on the list with any shot at returning to Milwaukee this year is Lockridge - the rest are pitchers who have underwent season ending surgery this league year, the lone exception being Zastrysny - whose shoulder probably needs the knife, too.

[endaround]

Brewer fans complaining about other teams playing games with the IL is rich. No team bends the rules more than the Brewers.

[Fear The Chorizo]

32 minutes ago, endaround said:

Brewer fans complaining about other teams playing games with the IL is rich. No team bends the rules more than the Brewers.

Please explain - what you refer to over the years are shorter term IL stints and maximizing rehab assignments.  That is not at all what the Dodgers have established a pattern of doing the past few years.

 

The Brewers also have a history of waiting too long for a key veteran player to hit the IL and play shorthanded at the MLB level for close to a week, only to retroactively IL that player once he proves he cant get into the lineup.  

[cragi]

Yeah I agree. Brewers have been clear about trying to work the rules using the dodgers strategies but have nowhere near the horsepower to play the game. How the dodgers continue to game the pitching and stockpiling rules is ridiculous 

[cragi]

I also think this is why the dodgers haven’t faced Miz or Harrison this year.. Brewers know their game

[adambr2]

Probably nothing can be done in truth. They’re doing this because they can, their organizational depth is that good and the regular season is little more than extended spring training to them because they know it doesn’t really matter as long as they do enough to get to the playoffs.

Hopefully they’ll look at limiting the amount of 60 day off roster stashes that can be used in the next CBA but in the short-term, nothing will change. 

[TURBO]

The CBA isn't going to do anything to limit the Dodgers hold over MLB.

60 day IL maneuvering and outrageous deferments aren't going to change.

Nothing in the next CBA will be done to help the little guy, it's the MLB way.

 

[bucks2281]

This is really the biggest problem I have with the Dodgers and the one area where I think they operate in bad faith. I don’t know what you can do in the CBA to prevent them from sending top tier guys to Arizona for summer vacation with a generic injury. 

[biedergb]

honest quetsion here - I can see how it's gaming the system. But on the other hand, those players don't play for at least 2 months, and when they return they will have to DFA/release a player, correct?

So the Brewers could do this, but probably don't because they want to play their players and not stash someone who needs 2-3 weeks rehab on the 60 day (ie like Harrison) since they want him to pitch when ready not when it helps.  Plus it would result in a lot of AAA and fringe MLB players released and the Brewers love to work those margins.

So the Dodgers do it because they have the US military budget as a payroll, the Brewers dont' because they want to use each player. So it is more a money thing than a completely bending the rules, right?

I mean any of those dodgers pitchers probably don't love not playing, but if they have a huge contract, know they will be in the playoffs, and are ok with rehabbing longer to maybe preserve their long term health, they may be on board. But with another club that player will not be very happy.

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

They currently have a surprising amount of minor league guys and role player type arms on it, and the reason is so many of their best arms and players currently sit on the 60 day IL.  Snell, Glasnow, and Will Smith are obviously key cogs in the Dodgers' plans to try and 3 peat as World Series Champs this October - the timing of them all curiously going on the 60 day IL with various minor/nagging injury issues has to be questioned, given the fact all are appearing to readily ramp up their rehabs  and will likely be back in Dodger blue in early to mid-August - just enough time to shake the rust off and be rested/primed for another playoff run.  Add in Treinan on the 15-day IL also progressing back on schedule for a similar return date.

Sorry, but so what?

You add a guy to the 60 day if he's not going to be back within 60 days. Will Smith? That was an obvious move. He had 
Snell has surgery on his elbow. 

Glasnow has been out for 3 months(roughly) with back issues. 
Bobby Miller, a guy with massive upside has been injured for a whlie with a shoulder.
Gavin Stone, another former top prospect, shoulder.
Graterol had back and shoulder surgeries.
Cousins is coming back from TJ.
Ben Casparius... don't know who that is, but shoulder inflammation. 


We put Lockridge on the 60 day, Quinn Priester, Brandon Woodruff. 
Rob Zastryzny, Brian Fitzpatrick, Angel Zerpa, they've all been on the 60 day.


I don't know what you want done about this, but 60 days means you can't come back for 60 days. 

There's no reason why a player who's been out for 40 days and is scheduled to ramp up and go on a rehab assignment shouldn't be allowed to go on the 60 day DL. 

[BrewerFan]

8 minutes ago, biedergb said:

honest quetsion here - I can see how it's gaming the system. But on the other hand, those players don't play for at least 2 months, and when they return they will have to DFA/release a player, correct?

So the Brewers could do this, but probably don't because they want to play their players and not stash someone who needs 2-3 weeks rehab on the 60 day (ie like Harrison) since they want him to pitch when ready not when it helps.  Plus it would result in a lot of AAA and fringe MLB players released and the Brewers love to work those margins.

So the Dodgers do it because they have the US military budget as a payroll, the Brewers dont' because they want to use each player. So it is more a money thing than a completely bending the rules, right?

I mean any of those dodgers pitchers probably don't love not playing, but if they have a huge contract, know they will be in the playoffs, and are ok with rehabbing longer to maybe preserve their long term health, they may be on board. But with another club that player will not be very happy.

But the Brewers do do it. And I assume you meant... when they return, they have to be activated OR be DFAed or they can send a guy down. I think Stone and Miller have options left(though I could be wrong). 

Lets also keep in mind... the Dodgers sign older players and some of those guys are more injury prone. Snell and Glasnow were healthy at the end of the year, but the Dodgers buy so many arms but they're also willing to take risks on guys who have injury issues. 

[biedergb]

19 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

And I assume you meant... when they return, they have to be activated OR be DFAed or they can send a guy down

I guess what I am wondering - this effects the 26 man roster, or the 40 man. Manipulating the 40 man this way won't work long term. But the 26 man roster sure, and if we had 30-40 guys who could be in the MLB and then have a few players OK with "sitting out" we should do it, but I think the Dodgers have that luxury, and like you said older pitchers who then can be injury prone - plus have a guaranteed contract - are more likely to go along with this.  The other is, if on the IL no guarantee that Snell and Glasnow are healthy for example.

 

I guess I'm not sure how they circumvent the rules competely, since the Brewers do a lot with the 26 man manipulation (like when Gasser was sent down but went to AZ where he was going to ptich anyway), but the 40 man manipulation in season is not fair, but when the players do come back they have to take a player off the 40-man.  I assume I'm just missing something here.

[Fear The Chorizo]

56 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

Sorry, but so what?

You add a guy to the 60 day if he's not going to be back within 60 days. Will Smith? That was an obvious move. He had 
Snell has surgery on his elbow. 

Glasnow has been out for 3 months(roughly) with back issues. 
Bobby Miller, a guy with massive upside has been injured for a whlie with a shoulder.
Gavin Stone, another former top prospect, shoulder.
Graterol had back and shoulder surgeries.
Cousins is coming back from TJ.
Ben Casparius... don't know who that is, but shoulder inflammation. 


We put Lockridge on the 60 day, Quinn Priester, Brandon Woodruff. 
Rob Zastryzny, Brian Fitzpatrick, Angel Zerpa, they've all been on the 60 day.


I don't know what you want done about this, but 60 days means you can't come back for 60 days. 

There's no reason why a player who's been out for 40 days and is scheduled to ramp up and go on a rehab assignment shouldn't be allowed to go on the 60 day DL. 

Calling Snell's elbow procedure a surgery is technically correct, but honestly it's a preventative maintenance sort of thing that couldve been done last offseason.  Then again, May-July seems to be also part of Snell's offseason.  Both Snell and Glasnow missed a bunch of time last season, magically had no setbacks ramping up to get stretched out into September and the playoffs.  Its rinse and repeat this year.  They are timing some of these guys going on the 60 day IL knowing they wont need them until late August/stretch run, and they've got zero problems paying guys $40+ million a year to take 2 months of the season off.  Plus they can time their return to happen after they use prospect capital to add someone like Skubal to their rotation, and then avoid losing those type of players via DFA's for nothing if they would've had to activate Snell or Glasnow in late June or early July.

My larger point is the current economic system and roster rules have allowed the Dodgers and only the Dodgers to make a complete farce of a 162 game regular season, 

[BrewerFan]

12 minutes ago, biedergb said:

I guess I'm not sure how they circumvent the rules competely, since the Brewers do a lot with the 26 man manipulation (like when Gasser was sent down but went to AZ where he was going to ptich anyway), but the 40 man manipulation in season is not fair, but when the players do come back they have to take a player off the 40-man.  I assume I'm just missing something here.

No, you're not missing anything. This is why we're looking ahead to guys like Luke Adams or Brock Wilken and hose are some of the guys it seems most obvious for the Brewers to trade. 

It's just roster management. I don't... really know what you'd do differently. You want to make a decision about injuries up to a council or something? And how do you quantify shoulder soreness? 
What's Woody on the IL for right now technically? "Right Shoulder Inflammation." 

I don't think they do anything different than us. 

[BrewerFan]

21 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Calling Snell's elbow procedure a surgery is technically correct, but honestly it's a preventative maintenance sort of thing that couldve been done last offseason.  Then again, May-July seems to be also part of Snell's offseason.  Both Snell and Glasnow missed a bunch of time last season, magically had no setbacks ramping up to get stretched out into September and the playoffs.  Its rinse and repeat this year.  They are timing some of these guys going on the 60 day IL knowing they wont need them until late August/stretch run, and they've got zero problems paying guys $40+ million a year to take 2 months of the season off.  Plus they can time their return to happen after they use prospect capital to add someone like Skubal to their rotation, and then avoid losing those type of players via DFA's for nothing if they would've had to activate Snell or Glasnow in late June or early July.

My larger point is the current economic system and roster rules have allowed the Dodgers and only the Dodgers to make a complete farce of a 162 game regular season, 

It's really not magically, they've had plenty of pitchers hurt in the post-season. 
And Snell couldn't have had the surgery because he didn't know about it. He thought he was just dealing with a dead arm due to pitching a lot down the stretch/post-season and when he tried to ramp up,he had trouble, they did an MRI and found the foreign bodies. 

That's... a pretty significant thing. I think suggesting they(LAD) timed that so that he wouldn't have to pitch during the year is... kinda silly.

They could say he had a grown strain or back soreness or a dead arm if they wanted to just make something up. 


If you want to talk about the current economic system, we're in total agreement... but that's not this. This is just... common practice during the season. 

[HarveysWBs]

To me, this is some sort of combination of injury (bad) luck and a further extension of their financial advantage over virtually the entire league. Because of their vast revenue system, the Dodgers can afford to sign players that will likely struggle to consistently pitch 150+ regular season innings (i.e. veteran starters with injury histories or concerns) knowing that even a combination of injuries are not likely to doom their chances of making the postseason. As such, they do not need to rush a player's rehabilitation in order to win regular season games, with an obvious eye to having the freshest stable of arms in October.

Credit where it is due: they have enough depth to make it work (and one of the deepest lineups in recent memory certainly helps, too). But I don't see this as a manipulation of the injury list system as much as it is another example of how the league needs economic reform very badly, which I realize is not likely to be news to anyone here.

[endaround]

3 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Please explain - what you refer to over the years are shorter term IL stints and maximizing rehab assignments.  That is not at all what the Dodgers have established a pattern of doing the past few years.

 

The Brewers also have a history of waiting too long for a key veteran player to hit the IL and play shorthanded at the MLB level for close to a week, only to retroactively IL that player once he proves he cant get into the lineup.  

The Brewers have constant phantom pitcher IL trips to be able to more quickly bring guys back up that they sent down.  The current rules about minimum minor league stays are basically in response to the Brewers trying to get around the 13 man pitcher limit.