BrewerFan

Well...you're not breaking it to me, I'm saying Eli was NOT a HOF caliber QB, he'll get in because he won 2 SBs...but they didn't win 2 SBs because he was a great QB. Big Ben...perhaps, but it still took elite complimentary FB to get him to the SB and give them a chance and then they just kinda limped along the rest of his career. Matt Ryan's career will likely not be a HOF career due to a 28-3 lead lost. Brady for the last 4 SB wins and second half of his career, sure. Hurts I don't think is a HOF caliber QB. As for his College States, he started as a True Freshman, had an ELITE year as a Soph and then it's well documented what happened his 3rd year. Again, Joe Burrow failed in College save for one year. If Love's Soph year would have been his Jr, there wouldn't have been those "questions." Who is the ONE QB that to a fan, GM, coach...WR-Virtually EVERYONE in the NFL would take? Mahomes. Remember how bad the Buccs made Mahomes look in the Super Bowl? So I guess I'll just say I don't know how to quantify HOF caliber QB at this point in a career SAVE for the uber-rare Mahomes-type talents. Look at Jalen Hurts first 7 stats. They were every bit as bad as Love's and he had significantly bigger questions about his passing ability. I'm more concerned with if you can win a SB with this guy. And I've seen enough good things that I think you can-IF you've got the foundation in place. I'm not completely sold in that position, I still need to see more growth, but he also needs more help. That 40-yard backshoulder he threw to Doubs to start the 2nd half vs Denver was as good as ALMOST any throw Aaron Rodgers made. He beat Cover2 by not putting much under it and couldn't have walked it there better and it hit both hands and we couldn't come up with it. So what would Aaron Rodgers and the 6-10 Packers have been HIS first year without a good OL and then Jennings, Driver, established veteran recievers and instead a terrible OL and say Davante in year2, Nelson in yr 2, Driver in yr 2, pretty much every WRer we've had has taken a couple years to develop. And then referencing the Mahomes 31-9 loss in the Super Bowl, how can you reasonably expect Love to have success when you've got an awful OL...and I've been pounding this drum since Rodgers and Billy Turner's PFF grades, but he made them "grade higher," because they had much lower pass rush win/loss rates because he got the ball out so damn fast. Now we're throwing the ball downfield more than anyone with a weak OL. I did think this OL would be much better because we'd have our pass-blocking AP LT back, but we didn't. I just don't know if it's possible to determine if Love is that guy in a season where you've got poor OL play, can't run the ball(this entire offense is predicated off getting big plays off play action and nobody cares about PA when you can't run) and your #1 WRer is in and out of the lineup. Your PB RB is in and out, your TE, that shiny new weapon, he's been in and out. I agreed with moving off Rodgers, it was time, but I remember saying...Love's best years will probably look closer to Rodgers worst. I think it's possible we have unrealistic expectations and it'd be wise to let this play out through next year and try to develop this offense with-the-caveat that Williams is the guy you take irrespective of how you look the rest of the year and Maye is worth considering, but you only take those guys if they come to you, but this strategy of "If they're not HOF caliber, you move on," you end up being the Bears/.Browns. Really good QB play can win your SB and then those QBs become HOF caliber long after people dismissed them. Brees, Warner, Young, there's a lot that comes to mind. Now, I'm just never going to be compelled by the College Stats. It's a totally different game. https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/love-led-nation-in-ints-heres-why-to-not-worry

The Reds can still sign him for 250K without it counting against their pool, correct? So if they go over 250K, does that then get added to the previous years pool and then the penalties applied or would that count against their future pool? I was of the belief that you were just strictly limited to 250K, but I don't know that to be the case.

He had the best record in 1 run games ever...at least at one point this season. It was better than Earl Weaver. I think that's pretty telling. And he was consistently year over year well above the league average in that area. I'd say that argues he's a good manager. There aren't many that can quantify wins and losses. Bobby Cox the Cleveland manager Hargrove or Davey Johnson(but primarily Cox) kinda show the volatility in post-season Baseball IMO.

I'm not happy losing to Marquette...don't get it twisted, but once March comes, I'm pulling for Marquette...after Wisconsin obviously. I just...never got into the whole UW-Marquette thing.

It's just a respite from the real world. I have a little cousin with stage 4 bone cancer(2nd cousin actually, she was 5 when her father and my best friend died from the same type of cancer). I have a 1st cousin on the other side who has had open-heart surgery with 4 young kids(she's fine, it was planned, but it's still a significant issue and scary as hell). I love watching the Brewers, the Bucks, the Packers play well. I care, but...this whole, "he was never really one of us," or how he'd somehow be a dishonest person if he watched someone else manage the Brewers? LOL...that I could not care less about. And even when they lose, I generally feel number for a while and then I just think, "eh, this is gonna suck to hear about on Twitter." But this should all really be a part of your life, not a central focus of it.

I think Caminero can play SS, I just don't think they were planning on him playing there until the whole Franco thing happened. In any event, this is about the Brewers moves, so if it's Caminero, Mead, Williams...they're likely not trading for Adames, right? That feels like it's more the takeaway.

I think this is the best...run down of Jordan Love I've seen so far. I'll just say I flatly disagree with the premise that you have to decide on signing him by the end of this year. I'd rather wait until his final year or when he's due to be a FA than overpay him. But setting that aside...it's a good read; https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/10/25/23931156/jordan-love-green-bay-packers-offense-contract-dilemma

LOL...my apologies!

The Rays have a top 5 prospect and Mead to play SS. I don't think they're trading for a year of Willy. The Rays are likely trading Glasnow, but...I doubt they're in the market for a SS. I also have no clue what's going on with Franco. I haven't paid attention to that story at all, but even assuming he's done, I think they're fine there.

LOL...if he leaves after 9 years, it means he was lying and didn't really want to win a WS in Milwaukee, his words mean nothing and he was never "one of us?" He won't lose any respect from me. He was here for 9 years and if he decides he wants to play in New York(Where you've already got him signing as this is a mere formality) I'll still consider him "one of us," as he's lived here longer than I've been alive and he's...also a grown man who's earned the right to make that decision.

Yeah, winning SBs makes you a HOF caliber QB and Brady has also won 7 of them(and he wasn't HOF caliber the first several few when he needed Bledsoe to come into the AFCCG or was holding the Rams to 17 points, beating the Raiders with the Tuck rule). Brock Purdy would be my response to this general line of thinking. Or Jalen Hurts, but he's probably on his way to becoming a HOF-caliber caliber QB. The point is, a HOF QBs, they end up in the HOF as often because of the time because of team success. You're including 3 Manning runs in there, 2 by Eli who isn't a HOF caliber QB if not for two great defensive lines by his teams and Peyton when he didn't even start most of the year he won his last SB. But yeah, I said if Williams, you draft the QB. I've said as much about Williams since before Love took over. And everyone else knows who and what Caleb Williams is, so it seems unlikely that, A-we're going to pass up the Bears and Panthers in the "race" for Williams(I'd also include the Cards and a couple other teams in that group). And if it comes to trading up, you're most likely trading away massive draft capital, even if you're sitting at #5. The group of QBs that make you a SB caliber team just by virtue of their presence on a team is exceedingly small and we just had one for 15 years, but lost to inferior QBs regularly because...we didn't have that complimentary FB. We didn't have the defense or running games when Rodgers was losing to Wilson's who had a top defense 4 out of 5 years(#2 the other year) or Kaepernick/Jimmy G who had dominant defenses. As for College stats, I couldn't be less interested in what a QB did in College statistically. Josh Allen and Joe Burrow had a combined 1 year meeting your threshold as starting QBs and they're both QBs pretty obviously on their way to HOF careers. How they play, sure, but their stats? Case Keenum would be the greatest QB of all time if College States told you anything and June Jones would be the NFL version of Mike D'Antoni. If Jordan Love had gone to OSU, he probably have completed 70% of his passes and that wouldn't mean anything to me either.

"None other than Vrable!" LOL...that was a build-up but I'm not sure what! It sounds like Jim Garrison talking about the Grassy Knoll. But sure, it's Vrable. I'm not sure if that's a problem, part of the problem, or not. I don't have the first clue if this is WRers and their inexperience or poor coaching. It feels like when you have a good position group, that position coach is really good, when you have a bad one, they're bad. Was Edgar Bennett a great WR coach? I have no idea. I know people wanted Adams cut going into his 3rd year, so...I have no idea how to even begin to quantify how to divide up the blame, coach, players, youth, and natural progression...maybe Love called the play wrong. Maybe a WR broke off a route or is trying to get into an open area in the zone. I have no clue who's at fault here. Maybe you bring back Edgar? Or....I don't know. That's all beyond the purview of a fan IMO.

Sure. Your supporting cast can make you or break you. For an established ELITE QB, they can overcome it to some degree, but not to this degree and we don't have an established QB. As for Fashanu...yeah, it looks like he'll be gone. He could go...I guess as high as 2nd, but I don't think Chicago would take another OT, I think they'd trade the pick for a QB and would be more likely to take an Edge(Latu and or Verse could go). Maye, Harrison, and it's entirely possible a couple QBs go earlier. I wouldn't take him, but McCarthy could go(if for instance the Vikings ended up picking ahead of us...or NE). Pennix, Ewers. Or a couple could go back to school. But as of now, we should be in a position to get at least one of the 2.

I think several people have said they'll root for them and be on the bandwagon come March. We'll root for them. They're still not on top of mind when it comes to Wisconsin teams. Hell, the first person listed off "Wisconsin teams," in the next 2 years, they totally forgot Marquette and it took how many posts until someone pointed it out?

By the way...I don't recall anyone specifically complaining about Gary. IIRC, most of the usual posters were measured(I remember a couple were POSITIVE they could have traded back to 20 or so and still gotten him. But the main thing is I remember how many people were upset the 'Brilliant' Pats took Chase Winovich went in the 3rd round and we got the lesser of the two Michigan pass rushers at #12. Maybe a reminder for some that it's good to step back and now zero in so much on each game and take a look at the larger picture; https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/former-dolphins-patriots-de-chase-winovich-retires

Also keep in mind Barry wasn't his first choice. He was also forced to keep Pettine an additional year and wanted to hire Rizzi, the STs Guru that the Saints ended up paying like an NFL Coach. And also that this was a 6 win team when he took over. So we know that twice he didn't have complete autonomy over his Coordinators and a third he didn't get the Coordinator he wanted. I think these are growing pains made worse by again losing Bakh...Jenkins hasn't been back to normal and their young WRers/TEs look talented, but they're just young. As for him not being a "Sean McVay" hire, McVay was 5-12 last year. The Packers trounced him pretty good in the playoffs. If we had a healthy Bakh...I think MLF has a SB and all the cache, but it's a bit funny the degree of certainty we've got now that MLF ISN'T the guy. No, not a chance on McCarthy. I really doubt we're high enough to pick Maye and it'd be sillly...IMO, to give up on him with this youth and a terrible OL ONE season in. I guess you consider it if you can get Caleb Williams...maybe Maye, but nobody else is worth it. It also helps to really understand the problems, not just "offense sucks-QB sucks-coach sucks." Love has done enough that it's obvious he's capable of being a high-end starter. He's also struggled at times as....I think pretty much everyone expected. If you can't get one of the top 2...and I don't see how it's possible to finish below Chicago and Carolina, so it's really just the one at that point(and if Chicago is 1 and 2, they'd be wise to trade #2 to a team that needs Maye which means giving up future 1sts and less likely to be to GB) again, Other than that, you draft one of the OTs. At least one of the OTs and I'd draft Two in this class. Anyway, an actual breakdown on how 'bad' Love was.

Yeah, we talked about this a lot. I was hoping to see a OT drafted this past year, but understood this wasn't a great class and when Johnson went 6th overall, it became a long shot. I liked Wright...I like him even more now, I think Chicago hit there, but I wasn't sold at the time on a guy who's a RT only(I would guess he could play LT, but he's clearly more suited to RT). Broderick Jones is looking good, but this class is to OT what the '83 class was to QBs. I wouldn't "just" spend a 1st and a 4th on the OL. Ideally, I'd take Alt or Fashanu, both guys who are plug and play type players who could be PB and in Fashanu's case, an AP very early on in his career. And both fit this outside zone scheme perfectly. But you've also got guys like Mims, Fuaga, Latham, Barton(who's more versatile and probably more like a Tom type who can play all 5 spots)...you can go down and list 8 or 9 guys before you get to Jordan Morgan, a guy projected to be a 1st rounder last year before a torn ACL. So either take those 2nds, move back into the 1st around ~20 and get a guy like Mims, a big, monster who's agile and can move to play RT or see who's there in the 2nd. Morgan(and Barton) is the prototypical Packers type OL...the only problem with that, when you're not getting the premier talent, they're usually going to be much better in one aspect of the game and lacking in the other. We've prioritized pass blocking for obvious reasons, but a lot of these guys can do both. An OL next year of Alt/Jenkins/Tom/Myers-Walker-? with Mims or Fuaga at RT should solve your OL issues for the foreseeable future. Now...IF we're actually bad enough to be in position to draft a guy like Maye or Williams...I guess you'd have to but I have trouble envisioning a scenario in which we're bad enough that we end up with a top 3-4 pick and I also think a disproportionate amount of the blame has fallen on Love. I'd also disagree with regard to Walker. I don't think he jumped Tom. We went into the season with Tom having won a starting job, Bakh looked healthy and played well week 1 and Walker spent the whole pre-season preparing to be his backup. Obviously, there was the expectation he'd play some, but I think when Bakhtiari went down, it just made much more sense to keep Tom where he was, Walker at LT rather than ask each to play the other side. I also take your point with regard to Walker...I just think this class is so abnormally loaded with offensive tackle talent, rather than a 'wait and see,' type approach, I'd rather be aggressive. Lets change the identify of this team FINALLY. Even when we've been good, it's been a while since we've been a team that just dominated the LOS. For a while, Sitton, Linsley and Lang could certainly create holes inside with Bulaga and Bakhtiari outside. I hope Walker or Caleb Jones...who I'm a fan of, or Luke Tenuta...a guy the Packers are high on, I hope ONE of them comes on so strong they allow the Packers to be a bit more patient with the other OT(I think we all agree if one of the top guys is there in Rd1 we take him). It's just like a cheat code if you can throw out an OL like Philly has or Dallas has/had, the 49ers have. It takes sooo much pressure off the QB, it takes so much pressure off the RBs, your defense as you're not going 3 and out nearly as often. It opens up your entire playbooks. We can't do a damn thing right now. Any play that's a little slower developing is getting rushed and Love doesn't have the time to look off safeties. And it's not like we haven't seen what Love CAN do when he's playing vs a good secondary with time in the pocket. Chicago, ATL and NO, the later two both with good secondaries, but poor pass rushes, he sat back there for 3-4 seconds and looked calm, and patient and went through his reads and consistently made big throws on 3rd down. A dominant OL DRASTICALLY reduces the type of talent you need at QB. Brock Purdy is a nice player, but I will not be convinced he's a better or more talented player than Jordan Love...but he's certainly playing a much higher level. Beyond that, I don't see many needs on this team other than the OL. A new, more aggressive DC pushes this defense into the top 5, particularly if you have an OL that can run block. OL-Obviously #1 S-I'd let the season play out, but we finally start to have cap room and as good as this draft is in OT, Safety is the best position for Free Agency. Kameren Curl, the top graded under 25 player by PFF is a FA(estimates at 4/60). Budda Baker will be 28 years old, but is a legitimate super star. Antonio Winfield is one of my favorite players. His Dad was such a pain in the arse in Minnesota and he's the same in TB. He's tough, smart, very good in coverage. Kyle Dugger, like Curl, a bigger, more physical player. Jeremy Chinn, an interesting player if you were to bring in Jim Leonhard and want that bigger, physical safety. Jayron Kearse would be a cheap option. And I think Savage has really been good. The biggest issue is safeties just don't have the same value. RB-You definitely need a RB or 2. I think Emanuel Wilson will end up being a really good player. Aaron Jones will likely be back one more year, but a guy like Blake Corum, or the kid from Memphis, Watson. He's very similar to Antonio Gibson. These are 4th/5th round guys. MLBer-Smael Mondon is a guy I love from watching UGA to see Mims and Van Pran. He's stepped in for Quay Walker and you can see it. Not as physical, every bit as athletic, maybe a bit better in coverage. DE-You ALWAYS want DE. If Kris Jenkins would be an ideal pick. Culllen's nephew, he's a 2nd-3rd rd prospect. I'd just argue that when talking about which positions are a bigger priority, fixing this OL could potentially be the difference in the direction this entire franchise goes. If you have a weakness at safety and you have to start Ford and Douglas or whomever, you need your pass rush to be better and your CBs. Love's future, the guy we went all in on and created this chasm with Rodgers over, his future could depend on what we do with the OL this year.

That is a grossly overly simplistic statement. A rotator cuff, a torn labrum, a capsular repair, they're not all one in the same. There is a WIDE range of injuries with vastly different outcomes. In addition to what I just laid out, this is sniped from the newer, more innovative technique to repair this very type of injury that is less than 10 years old. 9 month recovery time. He should be fine. This is not "typically a career ender." This is not Jimmy Nelson's surgery or injury.

It's a gamble, but it's becoming less of one with this type of injury. And you're not talking about some 5/110M type deal, it's a 2/25M deal. I think that's worth the risk. Kendricks from the Cubs just had this...I think Urias had this done. In fact, this is becoming an increasingly successful surgery with a relatively new technique and while the sample size is limited, most pitchers come back to 100%. This is related to the type of surgery Woodruff is having. I'm not sure this injury is as big of a threat as is being suggested. ALL shoulder injuries can't just get lumped in.

Right. I feel like we've established they're good, they've got money...and yet there still isn't nearly as much interest in them. I don't know what we're arguing here. They hired Smart away from Texas, they have a good tradition. They're still not nearly as popular as UW. They also have a HUGE edge in recruiting with their academic requirements for athletes...and yet, Wisconsin seems to do just fine vs them year after year.

These are SOO stupid...I get it's a team account trolling another, but I remember that play. Giannis was coming over late and not really in a position to block it and everyone acts like Collins just "posterized" him. And I guess he did, but I'd rather have a guy who gets dunked on regularly and actually contests shots at the rim! One of the few joys on Twitter...watching other teams talk about how they're getting Giannis in 2022, 2024 when he asks out, 2025 when he's FA! I mean, it's already been a lock, he's going to Miami, Chicago, SA, Dallas, obviously the Lakers are just entitled to him and the Clippers were going to somehow swing it, Atlanta because...Milwaukee is too cold. I think the only fan base not talking about getting him are the other small market teams and Boston. And NOW...well, they don't really want him because he can't shoot and all he does is run and dunk and he's getting old anyway...at 28! The coping is funny!

He can do things to entire them like...give them a place to stay or let them stay at one of his houses(he's got a couple now I believe). But literally pay them? I'm guessing @LouisElysaid that a little tongue in cheek. That's a pretty obvious violation. I don't wanna say Giannis HAD to do this because...he's obviously free to do what he likes, but he did kinda owe it to the Bucks who have completely sacrificed their future to upgrade this team right now with Dame and trading Jrue away, PLUS what could VERY easily be 3 premium top 10 picks.

How are you using that? Playing a little moneyball is looking for an area that's undervalued and jumping on that. You're talking about signing high risk starters and hoping we can piecemeal a rotation together that combined with the loss of Burnes and/or Williams we'll make up for it. That's...very unlikely. There's a reason you're talking about getting back multiple top 100 prospects back for one year of Burnes. It's because he's really good. I think you're optimistic and that's cool. And MAYBE you're right...everyone thinks they're the realist and deems people more either pessimistic or optimistic based on their view. But I would look at next year as a transition year if we're doing this...and that'd be my preference. IF you can get Miley back, Ashby is healthy, Peralta, a deep pen, Gasser, Rodriguez, maybe you have a surprising season. Yeah, I understand your logic. I don't know that Porter is 2-3 years away. He was overwhelming and dominant in a full year of A-ball. He'll start next year in HiA and that could VERY easily be a mid-season promotion. If he spends the whole year in HiA, then he starts '25 in AA at worse(assuming health which for the sake of this argument, you always assume otherwise you could just as easily do so for Burnes). By that point, he's a phone call away. Leiter, he's in a hitter friendly league and the talent is unquestionably there and the Brewers manage to pull it out of pitchers. BUT, the prospects are just guessing. We just have a difference of opinion. I'm alright giving up on contending in '24 as I don't think it's worth losing Burnes for just a QO. You talk about a long way away, you're talking about an extra pick in the '25 draft. Porter is just the near ideal prospect IMO. If he was doing this in AA, he'd be a top 10 prospect and nobody would trade him for Burnes. So you give up a little longer wait for more upside. I'm sure you could get a Gasser type prospect(more specifically a Robbie Snelling for example). But I like the power righty with Cy Young potential even if it comes with a longer wait. I don't want to just fill a rotation though, I want to find Top of the Rotation type arms. They can obviously help develop arms, but there's always going to be a limit. And ideally, those arms line up with Chourio, Black...and all the rest. Misiorowski is one guy who COULD be an ace. He has a huge range of potential outcomes, but he's the one guy on this list you'd project to start a playoff series until you get to Knoth, a guy we just drafted out of HS. The Internationals? Absolutely some very interesting young arms, but again, a long way away. I see the trepidation about "wasting" the Burnes/Woodruff/Peralta era, I understand you don't want to punt on next year. I'm just as worried about having the exact opposite problem with the next generation and not having enough pitching when we finally have an offense with some studs in it. Re the BP, I agree, that we'll be fine on and you can always solve that when you need to if it's really an issue. I take your point, you should try and win while you can, but already being down Woodruff next year, I think stepping back and trying to regroup for '25-'30 gives us a better chance to win. Watching AZ go to the World Series though...it really does once again spotlight how young talent and getting hot at the right time can propel a team to the next level.

Read further back. "Everyone" is most definitely NOT giving JRJ a pass. Yes, we have two competent OL in Tom and Jenkins. I think Walker's going to be fine, but not at LT, he's more suited for G. I'm sure I've started to annoy people I've said we need to use our top 3 picks on the OL(though maybe just 2 if we keep losing). 1st-Whatever it takes to get Alt or Fashanu. That might take a 2nd to move up....and they're both elite OTs. 2nd-Another OT like Mims or Morgan depending on what the board looks like and move Tom to Center. But after the top ~10 the mock drafts are wildly inconsistent. If JRJ is the worst OL we've got, we're fine. The priority is getting one of the two LTs. If we can get one of the two just straight up with our 1st rd pick, then take both our 2nds and move back to ~20 and get the next BPA on the OL. But Runyan is definitely not given a pass, he's just not the biggest problem. LT and C are clearly bigger issues. Runyan at least doesn't blow his blocking assignments.

Yeah, I don't share the disdain for Marquette that a lot of people seem to, but it's not about their...Ken Pom rankings, it's just a much smaller school. They're a good team. I'll root for them. My Cousin went there for Track...but I can't muster enough to follow Wisconsin that closely anymore, much less Marquette. But I know they're doing well recruiting and somehow they're considered one of the best jobs in the Country($ plus no Football I guess). But sure, people just aren't as invested in Marquette...