BrewerFan

Penix Jr seems like a backup to me. If we're taking a QB who's already got limited tools...everything had really better hit. McCarthy seems like the consensus #3 and a top ~20 prospect on just about every site, but he's I haven't really watched him enough to form a very strong opinion. Sanders looks like he could be interesting, but I am curious if he wasn't Deions son, if he wouldn't be rated a bit lower? IMO, at this time, having not watched any All-22(it's virtually impossible to get a good feel for a QB without all-22) two guys are as close to locks as you can be in Maye and Williams. There's a guy in McCarthy who people are high on, Sanders who looks like he's got ALL the possible tools you could want, but just one year of FBS experience...and then Nix who was very unimpressive in the SEC and Ewers who again, I haven't watched. I don't know that any of those guys are better prospects than Levis was last year and I think you're worse off drafting a QB you're not confident in, then trying yourself to him for 2-3 years rather than just foregoing QB altogether, drafting around the QB and then targeting one next year when Allar looks like another really good prospect. But sure, if they're really high on Sanders or fine. The only one I really don't want is Penix. He's just too similar to a Teddy Bridgewater to me. Limited arm strength, limited athletic ability (good athlete, not great). I think he'd thrive in a place like Minnesota, but in GB...I want the bigger tools and then try and develop a QB. Which is why I've also not given up on Love. He's just so frustrating as he looks like he's aiming the ball too often instead of just letting it go as he was earlier in the year.

Yeah... there are probably 50 draft-eligible QBs. They're obviously not all created the same. If you're going to replace Love at this point, without seeing him play with receivers who have more than 1 season under their belt, an OL that's been bad, and one of the worst running games, you need to be damn sure the guy you're using a 1st rd pick on is at least an upgrade on what you have. I suppose they may end up believing that's Ewers or McCarthy, but the consensus is there are two elite QBs and then a huge drop-off. If we're just drafting a QB and hoping, then we end up in a cycle like the Bears.

Yeah. And it is. I'm not saying the Cards have "one winnable game left." You are. I said it was unlikely the Packers could end up with a top 2 pick(BEFORE playing the Rams without their starting QB) and spelled out pretty clearly what I didn't agree with. Show me a contradiction. I don't THINK the Packers finish top 2(again, before their win yesterday) but I think your rationale is flawed. How about the Bears losing by ONE score to the Saints despite 5 additional turnovers? Is this really the hill we're dying on? Me saying it's illogical to say that 8 games into the season you can't say the Cards and Bears have just one more win? Hmmkay...

No, he wasn't. They sent down McCarthy and Philbin down there. Then Thompson and I believe Harlan went down there. BOTH groups to try and talk him out of retirement. He was adamant this time he was FINALLY retiring. Then we went through the off-season with Rodgers as the starter, we drafted Brohm, we drafted Flynn, we had 3 QBs, he wanted to come back and they said he'd have to compete for his job. He was not "pushed out." They asked him to come back...several times, then when they were well past that, he wanted to come back and was upset they didn't just hand him the starting job. So he had no reason to be upset with the Packers and I don't see how anyone argues he was pushed out. ****I GUESS if you want to make a steal man argument for Favre, he was "pushed out," that camp when they didn't just give into him...but I think that's a loose definition of the phrase pushed out.

Now...this is cute. The team that generates MASSIVE revenue and still ACTUALLY pinches pennies relative to revenue vs the Brewers! People can't really just look at this and go "oh...payroll higher, owner cares more," right? It's Chicago. Their ownership cares FAR more about real estate investments than the product on the field...

I have absolutely zero doubt he'd pass on one of these two QBs if they had as high of a grade on him as seemingly EVERYONE else does. What I hope he doesn't do is draft a guy like JJ McCarthy just to get another QB. If they think he's a legit QB, fine. I'd prefer they just build around Love(at least for one more year). It's nearly impossible to know what Love is with what we have at the moment. I'm kinda at that point where I can't actually root for them to lose, but...I'm not all that invested in them winning as it's counterproductive long-term, but it seems impossible(even before yesterday) to move below AZ, Car and Chicago. I think someone already pointed out, and the issue was already debated, but the Packers just aren't bad enough to catch up in the tankathon with the Panthers, Cards, and Bears. I'll guess we actually end up picking ~12th or so.

Yeah, I didn't say anything about Gary or Jones there bud and LouisEly cited several examples of players who WERE cut relatively quickly which...flat out disproves the claim he WON'T do that. Try and keep track of who you're talking to. Now I'll just cut and paste the response that was coherent and made sense in response to your claim; "Gutey hates to cut any of his higher draft picks and admit defeat no matter how evident it is that his pick is a failure." You cited a STs ace, a solid CB who wasn't as good as projected, but unquestionably one of the best 53, and a 4th rd Guard who's a backup and in his 3rd year... And you're still arguing this despite ample evidence to DIS-prove your point; @LouisEly made this comment...and was right.

His job isn't in jeopardy and if he did go out and spend a 1st on Maye or Williams, he's not going to be "punished" for that. They're spending significantly less money this year on the players on their team than anyone in the NFL after 3 straight years of winning 13 games trying to win an SB, they've completely turned over their roster, and Gutekunst isn't going anywhere while Murphy is here and that's through at least next year. I think the pretending would be a late 1st rd QB NOT being a franchise QB would mean he's fired. In any event, the argument went from he holds onto bad players too long to an ENTIRELY different argument that IF this QB isn't good, we can't "pretend," won't get him fired. Two...entirely different issues, and I don't care to go further into the 2nd as it's pointless.

Right. That is just TOTALLY made up out of nowhere. People don't like Gute because he drafted Love(I guess...really no other good reason) so they're convincing themselves he wouldn't cut bait and take a top 2 QB. The idea he doesn't cut high picks who fail quickly enough comes from nowhere.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of people making this about Attanasio or an organizational failure. It's basically the same people who always Sixto and then Brewer888 who said the Mets were going to give Counsell 15M a year and it was a lock he was going there.

No, you said the last time you were this disappointed IN A BREWER...inferring you were as disappointed in Moilitor as you were today. This statement I agree with though. This is a punch in the gut.

Molly was basically told he was not wanted in Milwaukee any longer. The level of disrespect shown to him is...not even remotely close to what happened here.

Yeah...I know. I was just trying to be nice, it was a decent write-up about the prospects...and then out came the "blown opportunity like they did in 2008 at 3B," and I realized...what's the point?

There's no question with Braun, I'm not touching this. Just STOP. I tried to compliment you, but you have these crazy ideas I've been reading for years. Didn't you want to move Frelick back to the IF? The Braun at 3B is insane and not worth entertaining and if Baez is as bad at 3B(he's so far away, he may not be)...but no, I'm not throwing a guy who commits an error on 10% of the plays, you're negating his bat and it's entirely counter-productive. The players you've suggested play these different positions they're not physically capable of playing...I'm out. Braun at 3B loses MOST of his value, how are you STILL making this argument?

You're kidding, right? It's so hard to tell as ANY time some thread's not strictly sticking to OPS+ and Baseball, you have people...bizarrely jumping in telling mods to lock it. Don't post in it if you don't want! Now...maybe you were kidding, I'm not sure. But it's still weird.

It has VERY little to do with age. One of the most powerful people in the Country and one of the Men most responsible for Unions who was tied to organized crime just vanished without a trace and people are interested in what happened to him. People will always want to know what happened with Amelia Earhart, and JonBenét Ramsey...they'll want to know if Hitler made it to Argentina, or This is the old kid in history class who says, "who cares, I wasn't even alive when this happened." Now if you just don't care how he died...fine. It's pretty well established he was killed by the mob and disposed of(The original story I heard made the most sense, shot, incinerated at a crematorium, and gone). This happened...15 years before I was born...and I find it fascinating.

Welp...I tried to have a serious conversation...

It's the NFL, they definitely have more than "maybe one winnable game left," when you literally just cited two. They're also getting their star QB back. They have at least 5 "winnable" games left. And I'm not sure how much you've seen them. They've been competitive in several games and at least hung around vs some of the best. And that was without Kyler Murray. The Bears have the same record as the Packers. It's odd that we're zeroing in on Safety play, but Eddie Jackson, their AP has played 31 snaps since week 1 and is on schedule to be back this week. Otherwise...you're talking about two groups of sub-par safeties with not a whole lot of difference...unless Jackson is back. Again, Cards are getting their QB back, and...you've watched the NFL long enough to know you cannot POSSIBLY script this out with 9 weeks left in the season. Again, the Cards could VERY reasonably beat the Browns, Falcons, Texans, Rams, the Seahawks the last week of the season. Hell, they could beat the 49ers who have lost 3 straight to the Browns, Vikings, and Bengals. I'm not predicting the Packers end up with the 1st or 2nd pick...they could just as easily end up with the 12th, but your rationale in how you get there is deeply flawed claiming the Cards only have one possible win left...and trying to project the last half of the season. We just saw the Texans win the last game of the year last year. You could easily look at the Packers' schedule and say they've only got 1 or maybe 2 wins left. Given the huge dropoff in Love's play since their 2 wins in the first 3 weeks(mostly due to the OL getting hurt/struggling and the WRers being terrible). There is WAY too much season to go and WAY too many massive upsets nearly every week to be this confident about the Bears and Cardinals not winning more than 1-2 more games left.

They LITERALLY did NOT do the same thing I'm proposing(not even proposing, simply pointing out is plausible and would have an enormous impact on their prospects. You know how I know it's not the same thing(and the statement that it backfired on them the past TWO seasons? Did I say a word about signing 40-year-old aces? Or did I talk about a 25-year-old potential ace, the greatest player we've seen play Baseball in maybe ever, and then a middle-of-the-order 3B. Oh, and IT-DID-NOT-BACKFIRE-THE-PAST-TWO-SEASONS. They were a 101-win team two years ago. Last year they started losing extremely important players, including one of, if not the most dominant closer in baseball. But fine, lets use your "it backfired," logic. Every year the Brewers have ever played Baseball, including the year it was the Seattle Pilots, their moves backfired. There's no success other than winning a WS? Because 101 wins seems to do just fine. What's more, they took those 40-year-old aces who they signed and you're claiming I "literally" do the same thing again this year and they flipped them for multiple top prospects. I don't believe they did, I think you're taking what a guy who got fired said when explaining to Scherzer why they were trading him and used the transition year...EITHER way, you argue that the Brewers and Guardians are teams who are more likely to win soon. I'm saying the team that can spend 350M dollars and also has a strong farm system and is one year removed from a 101 win season is probably at least as likely...and in fact MORE likely. But tell me, the Brewers by ALL accounts are trading Burnes. So two teams, the Brewers will likely be trading their most valuable player, the Mets will almost certainly be in on some of the premiere talent in baseball in 2024 and even "they" said they don't "plan to contend in 2024," that still in no way supports your argument that they're CLOSER. The Brewers don't seem all that likely to contend in '24 if/when they trade Burnes. So not sure that was actually said and it's not a strong argument. And I'M saying the Mets added a LOT of talent at the deadline, they can spend literally 3X what the Brewers can spend and that more than makes up for the difference in the rankings of each respective farm systems. I'd also suggest if you look at where the Brewers system ranked last year. With SO many elite young talented players in LowA/A ball, they're a system that could rise quickly. But again, more importantly...the fact they can add a couple hundred million in salary. C'mon...you've been signing Stearns praises for years now(and so have I). But now it's the "he may struggle with TOO much money." Stearns was trading away his best players in advance or preparing to because he had financial restraints...and YET, he STILL took over a team everyone thought was looking at a rebuilding year, won 73 games, then 86 and then took the Brewers to Gm7 of the NLCS his 3rd year in Milwaukee. He signed big contracts...well, a big contract for the Brewers, not for the Mets. 5/85 is not a significant move for the Mets and hardly crippling. In any event, he took over a team with 1/3rd the payroll and a significantly worse farm system and by his 3rd season, he was a game away from the World Series. I am genuinely skeptical you believe this argument. No clue. I didn't argue one way or another about Counsell going to New York. I said the claim they were so much further away then the Brewers and Guardians is silly. Yes, we will. He's given more than enough to the Brewers...and I'm not going to hold a desire to win a WS against him a few years later if he didn't end up getting it done. Just as I didn't hold it against Molitor.

It's long. I don't know what's hard to follow. You're saying they're further away from the Brewers/Guardians and can't spend their way. I just outlined how they could easily spend their way there and wouldn't be less competitive than either team. 1-No, they did not backfire on them; They won 101 games two years ago and lost 2-1 to the Pads. They were besieged by injuries this year, almost from the start of the year. Saying it "backfired on them," would be like saying signing Counsell backfired on us. Why? Because they didn't win a WS? It's been 2 years and again, won 100+ in one of them. 2-So what? The Brewers don't have Woodruff, they're likely trading Burnes...oh, and the Mets can spend ~350M on their payroll and sign any 3-4 FAs they want(literally). That difference matters a bit more in how quickly you're going to build a contender. The Mets reshuffled last year, they cut some salary, added some prospects and made a huge jump. The Brewers having the #3-5 farm system is not the end all you are arguing. The nearly unlimited financial resources are at LEAST as big of a factor that's being overlooked because we want Counsell back. If he wants the best chance to win a Title, he won't be back in Milwaukee(and no, it won't made what he said about winning a title the last thing he needs to do ring hollow). I still believe he'll be back, I just think your logic is...flawed or maybe wishful thinking. I don't know which.

Dude...there are a ton of players we could have kept, signed, but didn't want to pay 3M more for. Corey Knebel after he went through TJ on the Brewers dime, then came back and threw really well. We had...what, 5-6 players making 5M or more last year. We had a 1B who hit 41 HRs, put up a ~.830 OPS and we non-tendered him because his salary was projected to go from 2.5 to 5.5 and then he ended up signing for 3.5. THAT was another purely financial decision. If you asked what stars we've lost, I don't know, but 3 million MORE? Yeah, we've lost players for that "little" amount. I'm guessing most we'll never know about. 3M is not the insignificant figure you're suggesting. Especially when it's ANOTHER 3M to some hypothetical player and you're claiming that we've never lost a player over a number that small... I'd actually imagine, particularly on the fringes, we've lost several players in this manner(Manny Pina for example).

This is where I disagree. Just in this thread I've seen several people state that the Brewers and Cleveland are in a better position. The Mets could EASILY go out and spend 100M this year(as in new salaries right now) in free agency. Would anyone really be THAT shocked if they signed Ohtani, Yamamoto and Chapman(for example). Hell, they could add Snell on top of that and still not be as high as last year. That's a middle-of-the-order bat who plays an elite 3B, a LHed power hitter(in year 1) who would be the top FA if he only hits, and then a potential young ace from Japan who's considered the #2 FA on the market now. They already have a lot of really good pieces, their payroll is pretty clean in '25 and they saved a lot last deadline. Their primary target; Based on TheAthletic.com projections(roughly)- That's a 10/500 for Ohtani 7/210 for Yamamoto 6/125 for Chapman With all the money they cleared? DH-Ohtani 1B – Pete Alonso 2B – Ronny Mauricio/McNeil SS – Francisco Lindor 3B – Matt Chapman CF-Brandon Nimmo| LF-Starling Marte-Drew Gilbert probably gets some time RF-D.J. Stewart Sengi, Yamamoto, Quintana, Snall, Tidwell a trade Diaz in the pen with Adam Ottavino, Brooks Raley I'll assume some Aroldis Chapman type signings, and They also have a VERY good farm system with little Acuna, a top ~40 prospect, Drew Gilbert, another trade deadline acquisition who was elite in AA. Maurico who's MLB ready at SS/2B, Prada who's coming up behind Alvarez(one of the elite prospects in the game a year ago) and a VERY big trade chip. Williams, another SS who's likely to be on the block. There is a LOT to work with before FA just by getting healthy and growing and then you consider their money and what they CAN do in FA and again, this is a team that won 100 games just a year ago(so the claim you can't spend your way to being a competitor is false). They could REALLY easily be back to a legitimate contender next year. You CAN buy yourself into contention....if you're willing to use it and Cohen is. And again, I touched very little on what's a very good, young farm system not so different from ours headed into last year with a LOT of young guys with high ceilings in A/AA who would be VERY attractive in a trade. They could absolutely end up beating ATL or Philly, especially in a series.

If the Brewers had traded Burnes, Woody and then Hader last year or the year before when their farm system was ranked in the mid to low 20s and then after two terrible years, they had the system they have RIGHT NOW, people would have considered that an exceptional rebuild. It seems very likely based on all the reporting that Counsell will be back.

I'd say normally any team NOT taking a QB but picking 1st or 2nd overall would trade that pick as they'd likely be able to get future 1sts, but... a team may value one of these players so highly. I don't think most of the players you mentioned would fit that criteria though. I think it'd be Harrison Jr, or Fashanu, maybe Alt based on the pre-draft process. I don't know if I'd pass on Maye(or Williams)....but I wouldn't go up and go out of my way to get either. I still really believe Love can be a good QB, he just needs talent around him. The rate at which guys are running the wrong routes or blowing blocking assignments, he's got no chance out there. We've seen the arm talent, we've seen the athletic ability...and if he truly sucks, we'll still suck after building an OL and another 12-player draft. I also really can't make an argument FOR passing up on either for Love. Maye's talent is... comparable from a physical standpoint as Love, he's more refined at this point and he'll be under contract for 5 years. Caleb Williams is a more athletic Aaron Rodgers type of player. Throws from all platforms, athletic. You can never count on someone being as good as Rodgers, but again, 5 years. Ultimately, you're just limited when you're OL is this bad and you don't have WRers who can be where they're expected to be WHEN they're expected to be. Watching the All-22 with Love really shows you just how many times it's not his fault and it's not even like if he was a superstar he could make the play, there's just nothing there. Maybe Lamar or someone who could run, but look at Mahomes in KC. He's the best QB in the league, but they're struggling offensively and they have Kelce and some vets(and an OL). Also, I see you have Latham and Mims listed among the top picks. I've seen Mims mocked in the ~late 1st-mid 2nd range. I expect that changes, but that's what I'm talking about. Packaging the 2nds to a team that wants to move back and taking Mims after Fashan/Alt. I think you could win with Justin Fields if you have a 1995 Dallas Cowboys OL. That has to be the focus IF you don't get that QB.

There really isn't any RT worth signing in FA. -Jonah Williams is a solid RT, but not a stud. -Tyron Smith is old and injured(and an LT, but I'm being generous). -Mekhi Becton is an absolute monster of a human, but not healthy and not an upgrade. Yosh Nijman may be the best OT available. I'm 100% all in on Fashanu or Alt(assuming both QBs and Harrison Jr. are gone) and then taking those 2nds and moving back up for a guy like Amarius Mims or Latham. A big, athletic RT. Your 2024 OL, Fashanu/Jenkins/Tom/?/Mims That's an OL with a guy being compared to Orlando Pace, a 6'7 360LB mobile RT who's a monster in the run game. Jenkins...who I'm not sure of at this point. He was a stud, he's not the same. But Tom at Center...I believe he'll be a Jason Kelce type at Center and RG is the easiest position to fill. Rasheed Walker may be a better fit inside. OR we'll still have our 2-3rds, 4th, 3-5ths, 2-6ths, and a 7th. That's 9 more shots to improve at RB, S, IOL, CB, and the permanent mandate, DL. ALWAYS take a DL if he's the BPA after the 1st rd. I'd consider Harrison Jr, Maye, or Williams, but it's unlikely we're high enough for any of those three. There's also no way you can know Love is or isn't the guy yet even if you get Caleb Williams or Maye. Interestingly, Maye is passing Williams on many mocks. I think Williams' problem at this level is that he's just bored or maybe it's that he's looking for the big play all the time. Could be a bad habit, but I saw him throw three picks scrambling and extending the play looking downfield more. But I've also seen enough where he takes those easy plays. This draft has 5-6 truly rare players. Williams and Maye, we all know. Harrison Jr is again, one of those once-in-a-generation type talents at WRer people talk about, but it's seldom true. In his case, 6'4, sub 4.4, with body control of his much smaller father. Fashanu- Again, compared to a HOF LT, Orlando Pace Alt- Just watch this dude play. He's 6'8, but he is athletic, he moves like a TE, but also resets the LOS, gets to the 2nd level, he absolutely DOMINATED JT Tuimoloau, a guy who's in most top 50s on the big boards and Jack Sawyer, an edge who's another NFL prospect. Brock Bowers- He's probably I've paid far less attention to the likes of Turner or Kool Aid or Verse from FSU. I don't think we're going edge or CB(or WRer other than Harrison Jr).