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Cameron: not a "sure" fix


Greg Vaughn

I will concede that Mike Cameron is a great outfielder (and alleged good clubhouse guy) and will improve our defense tremendously and help us win baseball games, however, plugging him into the 2 hole is just crazy.

 

He is basically a Bill Hall clone at the plate, which equals a ton of K's, with some bombs. He is just flat out, not the same player he used to be.

 

He batted .242 last year with 160 K's....people need to start realizing what we are really getting here. A great defensive outfielder and an offensive player that basically mirrors many on our current roster.

 

He's a no contact hitter on the downside of his career, with a lot of the flaws that people aren't acknowledging.

 

Listen....I want him to be successful and improve our club offensively....I just don't see it happening. Those who think he's going to be "THE ANSWER" are going to be sorely disappointed.

 

 

(edit: less incendiary thread title --1992)

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Cameron walks alot more then Hall, and has been playing in a pitchers park basically his entire career. I don't think any one is thinking he is going to save us, but with his great defense in center and his speed he also provides will be huge. And it also sends Kapler and Gwynn to the bench, and Kapler becomes a righty off the bench.
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I agree he'll be better than what we have now. It just seems that everyone has been holding their collective breath for his 25 game suspension to be up and then we'll break out.

 

I also really don't understand why we would bat this guy in the 2 hole....I truly don't. Anyone who strikes out 160 times has no business in the 2 spot in the order....IMO.

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ELCABALLO45[/b]]
Greg Vaughn wrote:

I also really don't understand why we would bat this guy in the 2 hole....I truly don't. Anyone who strikes out 160 times has no business in the 2 spot in the order....IMO.

Who would you rather bat 2nd?

I don't want to turn this into a line-up thread but I'd rather have Hart or Kendall most definitely.

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My first question would be what do Ks have to do with batting 2nd because I don't get it, it isn't quite as bad as this he Ks too much to hit leadoff nonsense which is the most flawed logic I've ever seen. Cameron goes deep into counts and has a decent OBP and a little pop plus some speed, he is exactly what you want in a #2 hitter. He gives Weeks a chance to steal, has the speed to stay out of a double play and the power to knock Weeks in with a double or HR. This big aversion to strike outs is just absurd, yeah I'd rather the whole team had 0 but it just isn't not this huge negative that people think it is.

 

As for him not being the same player, he got hurt in spring training and played through it to start the year. From May 1st on last year he put up the following line.

 

.253/.341/.473/.815 in the most extreme pitcher park in baseball. That is not a player who has fallen off the map due to age in my book.

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My first question would be what do Ks have to do with batting 2nd because I don't get it, it isn't quite as bad as this he Ks too much to hit leadoff nonsense which is the most flawed logic I've ever seen.

 

As for him not being the same player, he got hurt in spring training and played through it to start the year. From May 1st on last year he put up the following line.

 

.253/.341/.473/.815 in the most extreme pitcher park in baseball. That is not a player who has fallen off the map due to age in my book.

First off....strike outs are bad in any batting position, however, putting the ball in play is crucial to moving the runner over from 1st. If he's consistently striking out in front of Prince and Braun...then he isn't putting any pressure on the defense.

 

My question to you is, why has Ned just annointed him the #2 spot.

 

My guess is:

 

1.) He's fast and can avoid double plays.

 

2.) He has some stolen base potential.

 

That's really all I can point to.

 

 

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I would think K's are the most harmful in the 2-hole just because one of the main jobs of the 2-hitter is to advance the leadoff man. Especially with Kendall batting 9th, Cameron is going to come up with runners on base a lot. "Productive outs" are pretty overrated, but he's not going to be very productive advancing any runners if he's striking out 160 times. I agree that strikeout numbers are next to irrelevant for a leadoff man, but I think they mean a little more for a #2 hitter.
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Ks hurt the most from number 7 through number 9. The #2 hitters job is not to move the leadoff hitter to 2nd, it is to drive him in! Bunting with your #2 hitter is a catastrophic mistake for this very reason, it is just a huge tactical mistake to make. You want a guy who won't hit into a double play and who can take pitches to let your leadoff hitter steal. Even if Cameron Ks a lot he can still hit a weak grounder to 1B to advance the runner and lower our chances of scoring if that is what the manager wants.
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Ks hurt the most from number 7 through number 9. The #2 hitters job is not to move the leadoff hitter to 2nd, it is to drive him in! Bunting with your #2 hitter is a catastrophic mistake for this very reason, it is just a huge tactical mistake to make. You want a guy who won't hit into a double play and who can take pitches to let your leadoff hitter steal. Even if Cameron Ks a lot he can still hit a weak grounder to 1B to advance the runner and lower our chances of scoring if that is what the manager wants.

If the #2 hitters job is to drive in runners, why on earth do we have Gwynn batting #2 whenever he is in the lineup?

 

 

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Because Ned Yost for some obnoxious reason wanted to stick with a lineup that mirrored what we would have when Cameron came back. He basically didn't want to jerk Hardy all over the lineup which makes absolutely no sense to me since batting 7th is terrible in this lineup and 2nd would have let him get some offensive momentum going. That is the same reason he hit Gross 2nd for so long until it became an obvious problem while he struggled.
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This is my basic point for this whole post:

I've read for 23 games now (I'm not exaggerating), that we just have to stay afloat until Cameron comes back and that will solve all of our offensive woes.....as if he's Albert Pujols or something.

He's not the savior some make him out to be....that's my main point.

We shall see....I hope I'm proved wrong.

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Ok fine, but CameronsOBP is higher than Kendalls and Hardy's over the last three years so he is the best option. I already adressed why last years stats are misleading, nothing but a slow april which doesn't suggest age related massive decline at all. Cameron is the best OBP guy out of the 3, he goes the deepest into counts, he is the fastest of the three. It makes no sense to say he shouldn't be batting 2nd unless you are harping on the Ks which have nothing to do with it.
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Ennder[/b]]Because Ned Yost for some obnoxious reason wanted to stick with a lineup that mirrored what we would have when Cameron came back. He basically didn't want to jerk Hardy all over the lineup which makes absolutely no sense to me since batting 7th is terrible in this lineup and 2nd would have let him get some offensive momentum going. That is the same reason he hit Gross 2nd for so long until it became an obvious problem while he struggled.

Has he ever batted (for an extended period) in the 2 hole before? I honestly don't know.

 

If not, why not?

 

Has Ned magically discovered his "natural" spot in the lineup?

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First off....strike outs are bad in any batting position, however, putting the ball in play is crucial to moving the runner over from 1st.

 

A #2 hitter who puts a lot of balls in play is also probably going to hit into a lot of double plays, so I don't really see why it matters. I'd rather have a #2 hitters who's going to make the least amount of outs of any kind. I'm not sure if Cameron is the guy to do it but his strike out rate is irrelevant to me.

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His top 2 positions by PA are 2nd and 6th. 1569 at #6, 1373 at #2. his 3rd higest is 825 PA at 7th. 4th highest is 747 at 5th. 5th highest is 722 at leadoff.

 

His career OPS as a #2 hitter is .790 vs .786 overall (keep in mind that is almost completely in pitchers parks). His career OPS on teh road is .809 at home is only .762. I expect somewhere around a .340 OBP and .800 OPS from him playing in miller park in that lineup.

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Ennder[/b]]Ok fine, but CameronsOBP is higher than Kendalls and Hardy's over the last three years so he is the best option. I already adressed why last years stats are misleading, nothing but a slow april which doesn't suggest age related massive decline at all. Cameron is the best OBP guy out of the 3, he goes the deepest into counts, he is the fastest of the three. It makes no sense to say he shouldn't be batting 2nd unless you are harping on the Ks which have nothing to do with it.
K's have nothing to do with it....in your opinion. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

I think combining Hart's OBP, speed, power and lack of striking out would be a MUCH better option....but what do I know.

 

Again....I didn't mean to turn this into a lineup thread....it's meant to discuss Cameron's overall impact on the offensive production.

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Ennder[/b]]His top 2 positions by PA are 2nd and 6th. 1569 at #6, 1373 at #2. his 3rd higest is 825 PA at 7th. 4th highest is 747 at 5th. 5th highest is 722 at leadoff.

 

His career OPS as a #2 hitter is .790 vs .786 overall (keep in mind that is almost completely in pitchers parks). His career OPS on teh road is .809 at home is only .762. I expect somewhere around a .340 OBP and .800 OPS from him playing in miller park in that lineup.

Fair enough......what do you think about my Hart alternative?

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I am not sure that anybody here thinks Cameron is going to be "The Answer", but he is better than what we have right now and will help us. He has far and away had more plate appearance in the #2 hole over the last 3 years than any other spot in the order. In fact almost half of his AB have been in the #2 hole over the last 3 years.

 

I completely disagree with Gwynn/Kapler in the #2 hole. All I can say is dumb, dumb, dumb. However, order in the lineup makes little difference over 162 games. Not enough to get to upset about it, but enough to be annoying.

Fan is short for fanatic.

I blame Wang.

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Brewer Fanatic Contributor

I don't think Mike Cameron will suddenly make every guy in the lineup a better hitter, that's ridiculous.

 

I'm excited to get him back because I know he will make the team better, there is no question of that. Tuesday is the first day this team will have its projected lineup on the field - which is not a bad thing.

 

Not only is Cameron the best defender on this team, he is also either the best, or second-best base runner, he knows what he's doing out there. He's also a guy who takes his brain with him into the batters box, he'll make pitchers work to get him out, and he'll exploit mistakes.

 

No, Mike Cameron is not the savior of this team, but he is absolutely a positive addition.

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I think a good example of why it will help came in the 9th inning today. Weeks was up with a guy on base and one out. The Marlins weren't going to give him much to hit because Gwynn was on deck and they realize he can't hit it further than 300 feet. If Cameron's in that position, the Marlins pitcher is more likely to go after Weeks, because he wouldn't want to face Cameron with two guys on base and one out. I realize situations like that won't arise too often, but on the whole he is a much better offensive player than either Gwynn or Kapler. We'll also have more than 3 pinch hitters, and hopefully 5 pretty soon.
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