Prince's defense!

[RoseBowlMtg]

I have been watching his d fade for awhile now and it is not just because he is short but for ex: Watch JJ and Billy get ready to defend. They are relaxed and take the two little steps to get on their toes when the pitcher throws the ball. Perfect fundmentally. Then look to the right side and you see Rickie do the same thing which brings us to Prince. Prince also is relaxed then gets into position by bending down a bit but not on his toes. That almost blew the game today when a high hopper was hit to him and he got back on his heals and butchered the play. It looked like he was surprised it was hit to him. So imo it is not his weight or lack of height that is his problem but his unwillingness to play defense like everyone else in the infield. His other little short cut is when he holds a runner on first he is edging off the bag even more now so when a throw is thrown over there it is like a catcher catching a throw from the outfield in front of the plate then reaching back thus taking too much time. Another team might spot this and get that little bit extra leadoff that could help them on those bang bang plays on steals. Fundamentally cheating because why?

 

Anyone notice or have thoughts?

[brucrustu]

I think he makes up for his shody fundamentals by holding the tag on guys for like 5 seconds or tagging them 6 or 7 times. I especially like the multi-tag when the ump signals safe for each tag.

 

I read an article a year or so back in which Prince said he really wanted to get better at defense. It doesn't appear that he was really committed to this.

 

He's never gonna win the gold glove but it would be nice to see more effort at times.

[CportBadger]

Prince will also commit to the bag to early on ground balls, leaving him in poor position on throws that are off target. An average high school first baseman will get to the base, put both heels up against the bag, and then commit one foot and stretch once the throw is on its way and you can tell where it is headed. This allows you to get in the best position to where the throw is headed. You shouldn't get crossed up this way, but Prince will often commit before waiting for the throw, and this allows poor throws to cross him up and put him in bad position.

[2hoophead]

Prince will also commit to the bag to early on ground balls, leaving him in poor position on throws that are off target. An average high school first baseman will get to the base, put both heels up against the bag, and then commit one foot and stretch once the throw is on its way and you can tell where it is headed. This allows you to get in the best position to where the throw is headed. You shouldn't get crossed up this way, but Prince will often commit before waiting for the throw, and this allows poor throws to cross him up and put him in bad position.

You are right-on, CportBadger on your above post.

I also knew that there would be a time, and it has happened, where PF is not paying enough attention to the pitcher and the throw to the bag on a pickoff attempt got away.

Let's just call the thread title, "Prince's (lack of) defense

His gaffe today was SO bad it was hilarious; fortunately it did not lose the game for the team, tho, this time.

[DHonks]

What bugs me with Fielder is his constant indecision on grounders to the right side. He sometimes takes his time and signals to the pitchers that he'll take it alone, only to have to sprint at the last second (see Gallardo injury). He is terrible with feeds to pitchers. And the most frustrating is that he doesn't bend for balls in the dirt. Sexson, despite being nearly a foot taller, used to have his right knee muddy each night from getting it down to be low for throws. Fielder doesn't bend for balls, and has terrible footwork near the bag.

 

Fielder has great offense, but I've completely changed my view. I don't see myself ever defending his athleticism and defense ever again, because he's been ridiculously awful this season. I used to praise his potential defensively. I still think that one day he'll join Canseco's header on the highlight reels, as a routine throw from 3b or SS will miss his glove and hit him in the face.

[rluzinski]

I just don't think Prince has been good at defense or ever will be good at defense. Not every guy has every skill. Its been said even before Prince was in the majors.... he's destined to be a DH.

[holybannana]

He's a pork chop. Pork chops don't defend well.

 

I gave up on pretending this team can play consistent defense awhile ago. Take my advice: The game is a lot more enjoyable when you quit getting mad at them doing the things they're bad at, poorly.

[TheRealMattKain]

But when Prince does make a good play doesn't it just leave you in a state of shock/amazement/happiness for the rest of the game? Like that diving catch he made on a bunt attempt in Manny's start against (I think) LA a week ago. He also had an amazing leaping grab to end an inning a few weeks ago (wish I could remember the game). Does anyone have any links to Prince's fielding gems (especially the one in the game with Manny)?

 

Edit:

I only look at the bright side of Fielder's D:

http://milwaukee.brewers....o.jsp?mid=200808163317210

http://milwaukee.brewers....o.jsp?mid=200808033247107

[RoseBowlMtg]

I just don't think Prince has been good at defense or ever will be good at defense. Not every guy has every skill. Its been said even before Prince was in the majors.... he's destined to be a DH.

 

rlu you might be right but you know the coaches are constantly teaching him the correct way to do things. It appears he chooses not to do them whiich imo is worse than just being bad at defense. His lack of desire to improve to be mediocre makes me wonder why?

[joepepsi]

He needs to realize a DH with a slugging pct in the low 500's is not going to win a premium contract. Carlos Lee makes $6 million more a season than David Ortiz and for several more years. He needs to decide if he wants to be a premium player or just the next Aubrey Huff. (Admittedly Huff is having a great season, but his reputation is that of a sloppy slug with poor work habits, aloof attitude toward teammates, and a porn star lifestyle.)

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I'd still consider Prince better than Ryan Howard defensively. Would you guys agree?

[joepepsi]

I would rather have Prince than Howard. Always felt that way.

[And That]

Fielder's RZR (OOZ per inning)
2006: .728 (.033)

2007: .668 (.022)

2008: .688 (.030)

 

Howard's RZR (OOZ per inning)
2006: .789 (.036)

2007: .723 (.017)

2008: .761 (.023)

 

So based on that, Howard seems to be the more solid defender, getting to more stuff in his zone. He's been about in the middle of the pack in RZR all three years. That tells me empirically (well, kind of) that Fielder isn't getting to the balls he should be getting to, while Howard gets to them at least at a decent rate.

 

Fielder seems to be slightly better at getting to stuff outside his zone while Howard struggled badly last season, and is only a bit better this year. Neither of them are quite average, though... best I can tell, "average" OOZ/inning is around .035, while high-end guys have a .040+ ratio there.

 

I'd take Howard over Fielder because I believe it's more important for a first baseman to field the stuff he should get to than to go outside his zone. Howard seems more "solid" I guess. I can see the argument being made for Fielder in the short-term due to age, but I'd rather have the guy who fields the stuff he should if both are just going to end up being DHs in a few years anyway.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

That is, of course, is if you take the Zone Rating statistics at full price. I, for one, don't.

[And That]

That is, of course, is if you take the Zone Rating statistics at full price. I, for one, don't.

I don't take them at "full price" either - hence words I used such as "seems" and "kind of." But defensive range statistics (UZR and RZR much moreso than ZR and of course fielding %) do have some merit. They're pretty useful as a comparison tool because everyone is judged by the same metric.

 

They're also useful when the counter arguments are "I'd still consider" and "always felt that way."

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

They're also useful when the counter arguments are "I'd still consider" and "always felt that way."

"Always felt that way"? You must not have gotten that quote from me. I am just using my judgement over a flawed statistic. That is just my opinion though.

Ryan Howard looks as clumsy as you can get at 1B. Even clumsier than Prince. Both are future DH's anyways. It's just a matter of time.

[TooLiveBrew]

Howard is not a good defensive 1B. He is definitely a nice upgrade over Prince, though. Howard actually has some athleticism in that big frame though, where Prince is just... big.

[Oldcity]

The one that drives me absolutely nuts is his inability to judge when to go for the grounder and when to stay back and cover first. Seems like once a week he ranges way to his right, turns to throw and nobody is there to cover. If he lets it go it would be an easy play for the second baseman.

[Fatter than Joey]

I'd still consider Prince better than Ryan Howard defensively. Would you guys agree?

 

I think Howard, while bad has been at least treading water -- Prince seems to have gotten worse.

 

I think Howard is better -- not that i could conclusively defend it -- Prince is probably the worst fielding 1b in the league, unless I am missing someone.

[brewers4eric]

Prince's defense is lousy. I don't see him getting much better with the glove in the short or long term. I groan as loudly as anyone when he botches a play, but the Brewers live and die by the offense that he generates.

 

In recent years, with Prince, Overbay, and Sexson, we've had a good series of run producing first baseman. Prior to Richie, however, the position was an offensive black hole filled by guys like Kevin Barker and Charlie Hayes. I'm not ready to go back to those days. For the time being, I'll trade 15 errors for 30 home runs and 100 rbis.

 

The comparison to Ryan Howard is interesting, as I agree that they are both destined for a DH role in the American League. The question in the back of my mind is whether you want an average fielding first baseman with good offensive skills (someone like Lyle Overbay), or the big stick with the hands of stone. The Brewer brain trust showed which way they wanted to go when they pulled the trade with Toronto. I just wonder if they truly felt that Prince's defense would be this bad after a few years in the majors.

[RoseBowlMtg]

I would like to know if some geared out stat source shows how many non-error bad plays Prince has. As for Howard I don't see him much but at 6'4" he has 7 inches on Prince which defensively is huge especially sideways when as mentioned prior Prince doesn't use his feet well to get the off target throws. A clubhouse leader who doesn't do the little things defensively might get noticed sometime from an infielder's error that should not have been. As for 7" yesterday I saw him nest to Tejada and they were equal. What makes it so much more noticeable and tiresome is watching Derreck Lee play the bag so well for the team we are trying to surpass.

[jeffy]

Prince also far too often goes for a tag play when he should just turn around and toss the ball to first. He has even done it a couple times where from the spot he fielded the ball he could easily just stepped on the base himself and he instead went for a tag.

[RightFieldCoder]

you know the coaches are constantly teaching him the correct way to do things. It appears he chooses not to do them whiich imo is worse than just being bad at defense. His lack of desire to improve to be mediocre makes me wonder why?

You can teach a 5' white guy how to slam dunk, but put him in the game and he can't do it. Prince just isn't a good defender, no matter how much work the coaches or Prince himself puts into it. Which makes you cringe at the thought of what he would look like if they didn't work on defense with him.