Solomon Torres Strikes Again

[bleacher10]

I'm a Giants fan. This is courtesy of Wikipedia: Torres is best-known for starting the last game of the 1993 season for the Giants, when he gave up three runs over 3? innings to the arch-rival Los Angeles Dodgers.

 

Brewers fans...I feel your pain and know what you're going through..Accept my sympathy.

 

Lets get a Torres rant going on!

[1992casey]

First, welcome to the board.

 

Secondly, let's not rant and whine because that goes against the type of post we like to see over here. Any objective Torres discussion is welcome, of course.

[pretendastronaut]

It's kind of hard to rant against Torres, even if he has looked rough as of late. It is quite probable that we wouldn't even have a chance at this point without him stepping into the closer role for us. (Yes, that statement can cut both ways depending on your viewpoint I realize.)

[lcbj68c]

Torres has looked rough all season, IMO. If not for the gigantic failures of Gagne, we'd be complaining more. The whole bullpen has been horrible.

[rluzinski]

The only reason Torres is the closer is because we have no one better. He's an OK reliever but I think everyone knows he's nothing special.

[1992casey]

We've been getting posts throughout the season saying to expect some kind of regression to the mean. The mean isn't bad, but it isn't outstanding, either. It's not like I'd be against bringing Solomon back next year, but it'd be nice to upgrade the team's closer if the opportunity presents itself.

 

The weird thing is the deja vu all over again mentioned in the lead post. Hopefully, something can happen to make yesterday's appearance less memorable.

[kramnoj]

Torres was a 21 year old pitching in what amounted to an elimination game. Basically the last great pennant race game ever, as I think the odds of a team winning 103 games and missing the playoffs in the future is quite small. If you want to blame somebody, blame the Giants GM for assembling a team that put a CF in the season for 522 ABs with a 70 OPS+.

 

Torres has been a benefit to this team for the vast majority of the season, and Melvin gave up very little to acquire him. He's certainly not a dominant reliever, but he got the job done much more often than not and the team is better for having him on the roster. I hope he's back next year.

[logan82]

I hope he is back next year as well. I would prefer that he comes back as a middle reliever or setup man instead of our closer.

[joepepsi]

Torres seems to be the most articulate player in the game. I like that he faces the media after a game, is willing to take the blame, and is eager to go back out there and give it another go. He's a closer by default, not by any sort of overwhelming talent. As said above, I think even the most irrational, fair weather fan understands that. He''s also been consistently good all year. Do I want him back next year? Heck yes! Just not as a closer. Find a good closer type, bring Salomon, Villy, Shouse back; maybe Mota, and you have the foundation for a pretty good bullpen.

 

Strangely enough, yesterday's 9th inning fiasco isn't considered a blown save. So, Torres technically has 7 blown saves. Kerry Wood has 6. IIRC, Wood had at least one 9th inning like that this year. Against Cincy, I believe.

 

Giants fans can't let the 1993 game go anymore than Oriole fans can stop hating Mussina for signing with the Yankees. Both are irrational emotions that fans need to get over.

 

Torres is a classy guy. Look him up in Wikipedia and you'll find this:

Giants fans blamed Torres for ruining a promising season and apparently never forgave him; he is still heckled when he returns to San Francisco as an opposing player. Said Torres: "They come to the park and they pay my salary, so they have the right to heckle me. If that's going to make them feel better and get over what happened in 1993, OK. But it's time to move on.... I don't think I was treated fairly by some of my teammates. And I still don't think I'm being treated fairly by the fans."

[bleacher10]

Joepepsi - Talk to me when the Brewers win 103 games and don't make the playoffs...Then I might listen.

[bleacher10]

Torres was a 21 year old pitching in what amounted to an elimination game. Basically the last great pennant race game ever, as I think the odds of a team winning 103 games and missing the playoffs in the future is quite small. If you want to blame somebody, blame the Giants GM for assembling a team that put a CF in the season for 522 ABs with a 70 OPS+.

 

Torres has been a benefit to this team for the vast majority of the season, and Melvin gave up very little to acquire him. He's certainly not a dominant reliever, but he got the job done much more often than not and the team is better for having him on the roster. I hope he's back next year.

Think about what you just said. BLAME A GM FOR A 103-WIN SEASON!? Are you kidding me?

Should we also blame the GM for 3 earned runs in 3.1 innings too? COMMON MAN GET REAL http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/mad.gif

[kramnoj]

Think about what you just said. BLAME A GM FOR A 103-WIN SEASON!? Are you kidding me?

 

No, I'm not. He put in a CF that cost his team about 2 wins that season with his bat. He also assembled a team and a system whose best option to win the last game of the season was a 21 year old pitcher who had already pitched over 220 IP that season. Blame baseball for not expanding the playoff system earier so that the Giants missed the playoffs. But don't blame a pitcher because he had one poor outing.

[BrewCrewRising]

What steams me about Torres is that he said we'd catch the Cubs. And then he repeated it late last week.

 

Then he basically gives up all the runs to possible to the Cubs to ensure that his vow can not come true.

[bleacher10]

Think about what you just said. BLAME A GM FOR A 103-WIN SEASON!? Are you kidding me?

 

No, I'm not. He put in a CF that cost his team about 2 wins that season with his bat. He also assembled a team and a system whose best option to win the last game of the season was a 21 year old pitcher who had already pitched over 220 IP that season. Blame baseball for not expanding the playoff system earier so that the Giants missed the playoffs. But don't blame a pitcher because he had one poor outing.

Here are Torres' season stats pal:

 

3-5, 4.03 ERA, a 27-to-23 WALKOUT-to-strikeout ratio (notice, its not strikeout-to-walk ratio), in 8 games!

 

I'm not going to let this one go.

[bleacher10]

Where are you getting your numbers from!?

[kramnoj]

Where are you getting your numbers from!?

 

Minor league innings count too. Baseball-reference.com is a great resource. As far as the rest of his major league stats that year go, since Torres wasn't dominant before that game, it just puts more blame on the manager and GM for making him be the guy to decide the season.

[1992casey]

bleacher10, you need to work on the tone of your posts. "GET REAL" and calling people "pal" when you're calling them out cross the condescension line.

 

Please give the Rules of Conduct a reread. Also, take a look at the membership application you read before becoming a member, specifically the part about "smack talk."

 

I've edited out the multiple emots in reply #10. And while it's occasionally justified, try to respond to more than one post at a time and avoid consecutive posts.

 

As examples of how to post, look at the tone of the messages from others above.

[cwolf2012]

He was 21 years old when he pitched that game...

 

I don't understand how fans can possibly hold a 3.1 IP 3 R start against that young of a player who had already pitched 220 innings that year between the majors and the minors. And even so, it's not like he blew up and gave up 8 earned in 1.2 innings.

[jeffy]

The real problem is that every major league manager is a near automaton when it comes to using "the closer". The rules which must not be broken include (but certainly are not limited to):

 

When the closer has been put in the game, no matter how ineffective he is, he must remain in until the game is lost/tied or until the end of the inning.

 

The closer shall rarely (preferably never) be used in a non-save situation. This rule shall be followed even if he is a pitcher who is more effective with regular use.

[Thurston Fluff]

Jeffy if that was true Torres would not have been in the game when he was. It wasn't a save situation. That was the second game in a row he was put in a non save situation wasn't it?

[jeffy]

I did say rarely in that second rule.

He also went unused for a week, when no save situations came up, didn't he? If our announcers are to be believed, lack of work can lead to an ineffective Torres.

[bleacher10]

Well,

 

We almost had another Torres "incident" on Saturday..I was getting ready to write a column or eulogy on Torres, but alas, C.C. came to the rescue on Sunday..Congrats on the playoffs!

[TooLiveBrew]

The whole bullpen has been horrible.

 

This is a myth that needs to die.

 

 

I hope he is back next year as well. I would prefer that he comes back as a middle reliever or setup man instead of our closer.

 

I actually would like to see him back as the closer in 2009, largely because I agree with rluz: "The only reason Torres is the closer is because we have no one better. He's an OK reliever but I think everyone knows he's nothing special." Instead of having a manager take a better RP (should we add one) & arbitrarily stick him in the closer role, I'd prefer to see Torres retained as CP (he's a proven vet! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif ) so a better RP can be used more as the 'fireman'.

[dadofandrew]

The whole bullpen has been horrible.

 

This is a myth that needs to die.

 

 

It goes along perfectly with my belief that most people know little about which they speak. That's why I'm a contrarian, and whatever the masses believe (the market is horrible, time to get out, it's a "crisis") is undoubtedly the opposite of what one should do (market up 360 as I type).

 

While it's an idea based on a sitcom episode, I find it frighteningly accurate.

[RobertR]

Other than Gagne, there wasn't a whole lot to complain about the actual performance. Mota probably outperformed expectations a bit (albeit in rollercoaster fashion), Riske underperformed, and everyone else was in the ballpark of what could be expected. I have more questions about the roles that were assigned and how inflexible the bullpen usage was, than what we got out of the players we had. I think it's pretty clear that overall Villanueva was at worst our second best relief pitcher and I never felt that he was used to maximum benefit of the team.

 

But, I'll give them credit. They pulled the plug on Turnbow and didn't dither forever on Gagne.

 

Robert