More Trade Value? Parra or Escobar

[chuckcrim]

If we end up making a push for Peavy, who do you think has more trade value, Escobar or Parra?
I think it's Escobar based on a higher potential ceiling. I like Parra and would rather trade him, but I think we can get more for Escobar.

[naivin]

Depends on the individual team I suppose, but Parra and its probably not close. A 26 year old LHSP with electric stuff (even if he hasn't quite matched the mental aspect of the game with the physical) has far more value than a decent hitting, defensive middle infielder without power.

[Invader3K]

I think if the Brewers do end up making a trade for Peavy, Parra will almost certainly need to be included at this point. Though with Josh Wilson as their best option at SS right now, you would think Escobar might be appealing to them as well.

 

I guess that's my way of saying "I don't know for sure."

[Ennder]

I would think Escobar has more value but if we were to trade for a SP we would need to make room for a SP so Parra would likely be part of the deal.

 

Of course he'd probably go into a catatonic state and be unable to pitch if he were traded since he is so mentally weak that he can't throw strikes, if he were just a mental giant he would never throw a ball out of the strike zone again.

[Invader3K]

Ennder, you don't need to go that route every time Parra or his "mental makeup" get mentioned, seeing how it's been talked about by more than just people on this site.

[naivin]

Of course he'd probably go into a catatonic state and be unable to pitch if he were traded since he is so mentally weak that he can't throw strikes, if he were just a mental giant he would never throw a ball out of the strike zone again.

Well, there you have it. Parra's struggles have nothing to do with his mental make up or his mental approach...he's just bad. Thanks for clearing that up.

[TheCrew07]

When did Hardy get resigned?

[Invader3K]

Also, if the player himself mentions it, there must be nothing to it at all.

[naivin]

Ennder, you don't need to go that route every time Parra or his "mental makeup" get mentioned, seeing how it's been talked about by more than just people on this site.

Including himself and his coach. I'm sure Ennder knows better though.

[CheezWizHed]

Whether its for Peavy or not, I have a feeling JJ is probably going to be traded before Escobar and a good possibility its during this season.

[Ennder]

Ennder, you don't need to go that route every time Parra or his "mental makeup" get mentioned, seeing how it's been talked about by more than just people on this site.

Every single time Parra is mentioned people don't have to take a knock at his mental makeup either. Does it really help the conversation in any way? There is no proof that it has anything to do with the problems and even if does is it any different than him just not being able to throw strikes like tons of other young pitchers?

 

Including himself and his coach. I'm sure Ennder knows better though.

 

That isn't what he or the coach said at all, it is what people read into the statements. Not being mentally prepared at the start of 2008 does not mean mentally weak.

[naivin]

"I don't think he got tired," said pitching coach Bill Castro. "I just think he had too much going on in his head."

"I think I overanalyzed and tried to make too many adjustments, a lot of times, instead of just staying with what I do best," said Parra,

"At times, I'm my own worst enemy. If I would have just stayed with what I was doing most of the time, I probably would have been fine. I kept feeling like, if I had one or two bad games, I had to make an adjustment."

"He'll talk to three or four different guys and think about all that stuff instead of just concentrating on one thing," said Castro ..."His stuff is plenty good. He just needs to make things simple and just pitch, not worry so much."

said Kendall. "He tends to over-think at times, which he doesn't need to do because he has such electric stuff."

If those comments don't speak to his mental make-up/approach/development, what exactly do they speak to?

BTW, I didn't say he was mentally weak (that's just what you read into the statement). I said the mental aspect of his game has not matched the physical. Do you really disagree with that?

 

[logan82]

I see nothing there about him being mentally weak. He just isn't doing what he is asked to do.

[Never Outhustled]

I'm not sure why we'd trade Parra for a pitcher who's road ERA might be similar to what Parra puts up overall. If we aquire a pitcher, I'd want an Ace type, then I'll consider trading Parra, but replacing Looper or Suppan would make more sense.

[Ennder]

Most people who claim he is mentally weak say he cannot deal with adversity that comes up in a game and he breaks down when anything goes wrong and that isn't the case.

 

What you posted is basically saying Manny Parra is a normal young pitcher. Do a search on "pitcher overanalyze baseball" in google once. I did just that to give you examples but found over 100 so didn't feel like posting them all. That is just normal.

[naivin]

What you posted is basically saying Manny Parra is a normal young pitcher. Do a search on "pitcher overanalyze baseball" in google once. I did just that to give you examples but found over 100 so didn't feel like posting them all. That is just normal.

Never said it wasn't - again you read 'mentally weak' into my comments. Everyone cannot be Yovanni Gallardo, but it doesn't make it any less real or any less of a problem for the Brewers here and now. But, to get back to the original question and my initial response, it would appear to be something that can improve over time, therefore making Parra a far more valuable commodity than Escobar.

[Ennder]

I still think Escobar is worth more just because of the service time etc. Maybe if Parra comes out and throws a couple really solid games things would change but he is still having problems throwing strikes late in May which can't help his trade value.

[Postseason2006]

Are we really going to throw Parra under the bus? Take this pitcher for example who struggled early on. Parra also threw a no hitter in the minors. Average guys don't do that kind of thing.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/glavito02.shtml?redir

[TheCrew07]

Most people who claim he is mentally weak say he cannot deal with adversity that comes up in a game and he breaks down when anything goes wrong and that isn't the case.

 

What you posted is basically saying Manny Parra is a normal young pitcher. Do a search on "pitcher overanalyze baseball" in google once. I did just that to give you examples but found over 100 so didn't feel like posting them all. That is just normal.

I recommend you read a book about or google sports psychology sometime.

 

As far as mentally weak or not, there's no doubt that he is, and there's no doubt that he's not alone. If everyone were perfect, no one would wash out in any sport. Some players have "it", some learn "it", others get by controlling "it". Zambrano was never mentally strong either, a couple of bad things would happen and he'd cave in, he's a guy who's learned control. All young pitchers do not struggle the way Parra has, but yes all pitchers will be up and down, that's the nature of the beast, because no one is able to perform at their absolute best every time out.

 

If someone hasn't come up with a way to measure a statistical impact, you don't believe, it's that simple. I'm in no position to tell people what to believe in but it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of what's wrong with Manny as a pitcher is mental and not physical in nature.

[Tbadder]

Parra's a lefty with stuff--gotta go through the growing pains. Escobar covers us in the middle infield, so I don't think you can trade him. Peavy's gonna cost too much later on--this trade doesn't happen I think.

[TooLiveBrew]

If someone hasn't come up with a way to measure a statistical impact, you don't believe, it's that simple.

 

I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous thing to throw at Ennder, and honestly just a lazy argument.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

If someone hasn't come up with a way to measure a statistical impact, you don't believe, it's that simple. I'm in no position to tell people what to believe in but it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of what's wrong with Manny as a pitcher is mental and not physical in nature.

For some incredibly strange reason I'll never understand, baseball writers decided a long time ago to promulgate the notion that things like velocity and movement on pitches are physical attributes while the ability to locate pitches precisely is a mental attribute. I've never bought that, at least not as a rigid dichotomy.

 

Parra doesn't have Steve Blass disease or anything (and even if he did, sports psychologists haven't been much help to his forerunners in that department, so...), he's just struggling a bit with his control. That could be related to mechanics, a new or previous injury, or any number of purely physical problems just as easily as it could be related to the tangled web of neuroses he, like each and every single one of us, is carrying around upstairs. Issuing walks doesn't mean he's a coward, or a thin-skinned sissy, or on the verge of a nervous breakdown, or any such thing.

 

Which isn't to say he isn't on the verge of a nervous breakdown -- for all I know he might be, but I'm at least willing to admit that I cannot gain any special insight into a person's character, mental state, or emotional state just by watching a brief stretch of his failures at a dumb game, or by piecing together a bunch of quotes that honestly seem to me to sound like somebody telling somebody else exactly what they already believe, want to hear, and would doubtless end up writing whether you feed it to them or not. At least this way, Parra gets to pretend that he knows why his command is off and knows how to fix it. The alternative (that it's a physical problem) is clearly a lot scarier to an athlete.

[Ennder]

"If someone hasn't come up with a way to measure a statistical impact, you don't believe, it's that simple. I'm in no position to tell people what to believe in but it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of what's wrong with Manny as a pitcher is mental and not physical in nature.

 

"

 

It isn't obvious though, he made some comments about overthinking and everyone just says it is true now. He isn't throwing strikes, could that be a mental thing, sure. It could be a physical thing too though. My point was really that it doesn't matter, the statistics at the end of the day are what matter. There is no need to sit here and try to say all his problems are just mental when there is no way on earth you could know whether that is true or not and it doesn't really matter regardless.

[southpaw121505]

Just to answer the original question. I'd guess Escobar still has higher value since he can be controlled longer and even though he is a prospect, it's pretty clear to everyone that at worst he'll be a stellar defensive player, if he hits he has crazy value.

[CheezWizHed]

Perhaps the Parra mental aspect can be moved to a different thread...

 

I don't see Escobar being traded. Especially with our middle infield in flux right now.

 

If we get Peavy in a trade, one of our SPs needs to go (well, I suppose Parra has a minor league option...). Parra, Bush and Looper are the most tradeable (assuming Gallardo is untouchable). Looper or Bush + ? for Peavy could be interesting. Parra for Peavy I would consider. I think Parra has the most upside of the three, but also the most "flame-out" possibility (injury, unproven).