Brandon Webb/Chris Young

[JohnBriggs12]

Webb will be a FA and is just now ready to pitch. Padres have an $8.5 million option on Young who's been very good so far in his few outings since returning.

 

Both when healthy are premier starting pitchers. The Brewers FA strategy in the recent past is to pay for reliability and ignore guys with potentially higher rewards who've had recent injury issues. That strategy hasn't worked.

 

Personally, I'd like the Brewers to make a run at both Webb and Young. The Pads might pick up Young's option but even if they did, he might be had in a deal for some offense.

[trwi7]

At this point, Chris Young is a worse version of Dave Bush. He can barely hit 85 on his fastball and he walks almost as many as he strikes out. He's horrible.

[thebruce44]

Webb will be a FA and is just now ready to pitch. Padres have an $8.5 million option on Young who's been very good so far in his few outings since returning.

 

Both when healthy are premier starting pitchers. The Brewers FA strategy in the recent past is to pay for reliability and ignore guys with potentially higher rewards who've had recent injury issues. That strategy hasn't worked.

 

Personally, I'd like the Brewers to make a run at both Webb and Young. The Pads might pick up Young's option but even if they did, he might be had in a deal for some offense.

 

I like Webb, but I wonder how successful he would be with the Brewers defense behind him.

[RockCoCougars]

Webb intrigued me for a while, but the fact that he hasn't been able to make it back to this point makes me very leery- especially because I'm sure he's busted his butt to get back due to his impending free agency. I'm not sure that I want to take another gamble on a guy that might miss most of next season (a la Doug Davis). For the money that I'd give Webb (heavily incentive laden based on starts), I would guess that Arizona would match.

 

I'd rather bring Cappy back as the #5 and try to swing a trade for an additional starter to put between Yo and Wolf. If a trade could be pulled off, perhaps another #3/#4 could be added through free agency. Go ahead and laugh, but I'd still like to pursue Rich Harden even though his velocity is down this year. Narveson, Rogers and Jeffress could all be fallback options.

[JohnBriggs12]

Webb will be a FA and is just now ready to pitch. Padres have an $8.5 million option on Young who's been very good so far in his few outings since returning.

 

Both when healthy are premier starting pitchers. The Brewers FA strategy in the recent past is to pay for reliability and ignore guys with potentially higher rewards who've had recent injury issues. That strategy hasn't worked.

 

Personally, I'd like the Brewers to make a run at both Webb and Young. The Pads might pick up Young's option but even if they did, he might be had in a deal for some offense.

 

I like Webb, but I wonder how successful he would be with the Brewers defense behind him.

He was 1-2 in the Cy Young voting from 06 to 08, and Arizona was in the bottom half in fielding all 3 years. The Brewer defense isn't as bad as you make it out to be. McGehee is just a -5 in runs saved vs. average and has a fielding pct. better than league average. Escobar was just a -3. Weeks is still shaky with a -10 and Fielder was a -6. Cain has been tremendous. His runs saved over a full season would be 27 over average. Braun's actually shot into positive territory too at a +5 and so has Hart with a +4.

[Invader3K]

Yeah, I'm getting tired of the, "Our defense sucks and makes our pitching worse", argument. I can buy that our defense costs a run here and there. I just think the main issue is that overall, our starting pitching staff hasn't been very good since Sheets and Sabathia left. We aren't going to win a championship with Gallardo/Wolf followed by a bunch of #5 type guys.

 

I think our defense is going to improve next season with Fielder probably departing, and hopefully Weeks and Escobar continuing to improve. You can put Cain and maybe even Lucroy in that latter category as well.

 

This staff obviously needs a #1/2 to help Gallardo carry the load. I don't know if Webb would be the answer, but it could be worth looking into.

[thebruce44]

JohnBriggs12[/b]]

JohnBriggs12[/b]]Personally, I'd like the Brewers to make a run at both Webb and Young. The Pads might pick up Young's option but even if they did, he might be had in a deal for some offense.

I like Webb, but I wonder how successful he would be with the Brewers defense behind him.

He was 1-2 in the Cy Young voting from 06 to 08, and Arizona was in the bottom half in fielding all 3 years. The Brewer defense isn't as bad as you make it out to be. McGehee is just a -5 in runs saved vs. average and has a fielding pct. better than league average. Escobar was just a -3. Weeks is still shaky with a -10 and Fielder was a -6. Cain has been tremendous. His runs saved over a full season would be 27 over average. Braun's actually shot into positive territory too at a +5 and so has Hart with a +4.

How bad did I make the defense out to be?

 

Regardless, our entire infield defense is then below average from the stats you have provided. This coresponds with the eye test to me so I will go with this, even though I think they are worse than you are making them out to be (and since you actually provided something measureable I can say that to you). Since Webb is a ground ball pitcher, the infield defense is mostly what I care about in terms of his number being effected.

 

Now, a little off topic, but Braun and Hart are above average defensive outfielders? And you want me to take that seriously? Where are you even getting this from, URZ has Braun at -11 and Hart at -7.7. Thats terrible.

 

Back on topic, URZ has our starting infield defense at Prince (-9.2), Weeks (-0.2), McGehee (-5.7), and Escobar (+1.3). I'm sorry, but thats not going to do a GB pitcher any favors and I don't think you need defensive statistics to realize that.

 

I agree that for the most part our pitching just hasn't been very good, and I do think our defense is rapidly improving. However to just discount that aspect doesn't make sense, especially when bringing in the most extream GB pitcher in the game whose velocity has been decreasing.

[And That]

I like Webb, but only on a low guarantee/high incentive deal. Same with Justin Duchscherer, though I wouldn't pay him much more than the minimum guaranteed.

 

Chris Young's fastball velocity by year, starting with 2004, ending 2010: 91.2, 89.9, 89, 88.7, 87.2, 85.8, 84.7. Anyone else notice a pattern? No thanks.

[craigharmann]

If I have to choose between the two, I pick Webb.

[JohnBriggs12]

In Young's defense, he's still 6'10" and able to get a downward plane on his pitches guys like Dave Bush can't.

 

Duchscherer is another possibility as is Brandon McCarthy, a likely non-tender with Texas.

[trwi7]

In Young's defense, he's still 6'10" and able to get a downward plane on his pitches guys like Dave Bush can't.

So? It's not exactly helping him get groundballs. He gives up two flyballs for every groundball in his career while Bush is basically 1 for 1.

 

[thebruce44]

trwi7[/b]]

JohnBriggs12[/b]]In Young's defense, he's still 6'10" and able to get a downward plane on his pitches guys like Dave Bush can't.

So? It's not exactly helping him get groundballs. He gives up two flyballs for every groundball in his career while Bush is basically 1 for 1.

Speculation on my part, but if anything his height at this point could be making it harder for him to repeat his delivery, perhaps contributing to his walk rate increase.

 

 

[CheezWizHed]

I'm sorry, but thats not going to do a GB pitcher any favors and I don't think you need defensive statistics to realize that.

 

No, but that isn't a reason to not go after him either.

[trwi7]

I'm sorry, but thats not going to do a GB pitcher any favors and I don't think you need defensive statistics to realize that.

 

No, but that isn't a reason to not go after him either.

But him only throwing 81 mph is.

[endaround]

Webb looks to be one of those guys the Red Sox sign for $5m with hopes he's ready in July.

[dlk9s]

The Brewers should sign Brandon Webb just for the potential George Webb promotions.

[And That]

Pair him with Kottaras, and that's a winning marketing campaign.

[JohnBriggs12]

In Young's defense, he's still 6'10" and able to get a downward plane on his pitches guys like Dave Bush can't.

So? It's not exactly helping him get groundballs. He gives up two flyballs for every groundball in his career while Bush is basically 1 for 1.

 

I watched him last night against the Cubs (6 shutout innings). His fastball was 86-88 and he was blowing it by Cubs hitters up in the zone. Brenly noted that Young is adept at pitching at the knees and then when you're looking down there, beating you up in the zone. He stressed that he stays out of the middle of the zone. He also mentioned his fastball gets on hitters quicker than the radar gun shows because his stride is long and he looks like he's throwing from 50 feet instead of 60.

[thebruce44]

I'm sorry, but thats not going to do a GB pitcher any favors and I don't think you need defensive statistics to realize that.

 

No, but that isn't a reason to not go after him either.

Agreed, there are a variety of other factors. I was responding to other posters who were claiming they were sick of the argument that our defense makes our pitching worse. For a GB pitcher, having a subpar defensive If is going to hurt them. Its pretty simple. Thats all I was pointing out.

[CheezWizHed]

Yes, I would agree that our infield defense won't do Webb any favors. But at the same time, it doesn't help any of our pitchers. The impact might be more for Webb, but in general, I'd take a GB pitcher over a flyball pitcher (all other things being equal).

 

I'm not saying lets get Webb. There may be other mitigating factors. I'm just saying, don't avoid GB pitchers just because of our infield defense...

 

Get good pitchers (and in general heavy GB pitchers are good pitchers), then work to improve the defense.

[thebruce44]

CheezWizHed[/b]]Yes, I would agree that our infield defense won't do Webb any favors. But at the same time, it doesn't help any of our pitchers. The impact might be more for Webb, but in general, I'd take a GB pitcher over a flyball pitcher (all other things being equal).

 

I'm not saying lets get Webb. There may be other mitigating factors. I'm just saying, don't avoid GB pitchers just because of our infield defense...

 

Get good pitchers (and in general heavy GB pitchers are good pitchers), then work to improve the defense.

I would also prefer a GB pitcher over a FB pitcher, but at the same time I would target guys with a high K/9 as opposed to guys that rely more on their defense. I agree that our defense doesn't help any pitchers, but that deficiency is minimized by a guy like Yo. Webb used to have a good K/9, but I worry that with his decreasing velocity he will be much more reliant on his IF defense to get hitters out. At that point, he may not be a very good fit for the Brewers.

 

But if I had to pick between him and Young or some FB pitchers, then yes, I would target Webb.

 

 

[nate82]

I would rather offer Vazquez a deal around $4m for a 1-year contract than either of Webb or Young who will be looking to get a similar deal. Webb won't be available until about June or July at the earliest and he won't be able to pitch much more than 100 innings unless you want to be the A's and have an injury to Webb like Sheets had.

[dadofandrew]

As pointed out, BOS or NYY can afford to take a $5M risk on Webb, the Crew can't, not based on one inning in instructionals. If the Crew can risk $5M, I promise you NYY can gamble $10M.

[JohnBriggs12]

I would rather offer Vazquez a deal around $4m for a 1-year contract than either of Webb or Young who will be looking to get a similar deal. Webb won't be available until about June or July at the earliest and he won't be able to pitch much more than 100 innings unless you want to be the A's and have an injury to Webb like Sheets had.

I disagree totally. Webb at his peak, which wasn't all that long ago, was better than either Vazquez and Sheets. Vazquez HR ratio is comparable to Dave Bush and that's not a good thing. Plus he's 3 years older than Webb. It's no coincidence Vazquez had his best year in the last 3 pitching in spacious Turner Field.

 

I will admit Webb is high risk. But he's also high reward, very high reward. In recent years the Brewers have been throwing millions at guys in their 30's who at best are 4th starters. Even if Davis hadn't gotten hurt this season, he wouldn't have made one whit of a difference as he was easily replaced by minimum wage Narveson. Losing him was essentially no loss at all. That's just plain stupid use of money as was the money given to Braden Looper the year before.

 

This year with lots of money off the books the Brewers are in the best position in recent memory to take a gamble that if it paid off would be enormous. All they have to do is use the money they are saving by having pre-arby Narveson as 5th starter instead of paying to get over the hill guys like Looper and Davis who never were a shadow of what Webb has been. If Webb fails completely, then go to plan B, the young guys.

 

To Al's point, Yankees don't need to gamble.

[kramnoj]

Yeah, I'm getting tired of the, "Our defense sucks and makes our pitching worse", argument.

 

Suppan had a 3.84 ERA this year with the Cardinals, which was better than league average.

 

URZ has Braun at -11 and Hart at -7.7. Thats terrible.

 

That's not terrible. You writing that it's terrible is terrible.

 

UZR is so subject to small samples that Braun and Hart both improved by the end of the season. Braun ended at -8.3 and -5.9. I would say that this season showed that they were merely bad to below average.