Packers 2022 Discussion Thread

[UpandIn]

2 hours ago, GreatNWwi said:

My son and I had this exact conversation yesterday.  We are unsure of the answer but lean towards its a Rodgers thing.

I half expect the seemingly even tempered MLF to slam his headset to the turf on the next 3 and out that consists of two bombs and another bad pass.

I think it's a Rodgers thing...and that's especially obvious on the RPOs...like the 4th down play where Myers drove his man 3 yards into the endzone and Dillon would have had a walk in TD. I don't even remember the 3rd down play or if they opened a hole, but it was basically the same play. 

Rodgers said he gets a choice of 2 plays about 40-50% of the time and then he gets the option to audible 100% of the time.
Mercedes Lewis said about 50% of the playbook is Rodgers, 50% is LaFleur's. I thought we saw a pretty clear contrast last year when Love played. They blitzed the hell outta him and the OL did a terrible job picking it up, but just the look of the offense. We weren't running inside zone out of shotgun on 4th and short. That's a very distinctly Rodgers preference it would seem.

Looking at MLF's last year and...only year calling plays before GB, he ran the ball more than he threw it. 

Shanahan runs the ball 1st. They certainly ran the ball well in Atlanta. 

I think that Rodgers is a very smart QB. I think he's one of the best at off-schedule plays, I think he's...one of the most talented to every play. But it's also obvious he's...very confident he's smarter than most people in every room and that he pre-determines where or what he's doing on quite a few plays. At least it seems like it is.

 

This has been a very frustrating season. 

 

-Still think the Packers can get the OL to gel and...IDK, maybe find a WR to stretch the field who can actually say on it so they can stretch the field. I'm pretty confident the defense will be fine as the seasons goes on.

I'd really hate to think where this team would be without Jones, Gary and Clark. I'd add Jaire, but...they're hardly using him like you'd expect an elite CB to be used, something I expect MLF will take a bigger hand in when the time comes as he's done in the past. 

The good news is there doesn't appear to be any dominant teams...so hopefully we can get our **** together like the Rams did last year and go on a run.
 

[Fear The Chorizo]

I posted something similar to this in the game thread...but what drives me nuts with Rodgers from time to time is him seemingly adjusting plays/using RPOs too often to try and force the ball to "his guys" in a way that makes the offense feel way too 1-dimensional and disjointed.  Randall Cobb should never, ever get targeted 13 times in a game.  That honestly feels like what Favre did towards the end of his tenure in GB with Donald Driver, while largely limiting targets to younger and more athletic receivers.  Sure, rookie wideouts need time to develop trust with a veteran quarterback...but that quarterback has to give them opportunities to earn that trust.  Amari Rodgers looks to be a bust, but then again the role he's likely best suited for has been taken by Cobb, which has neutered any opportunity for Amari to get offensive snaps.

Cobb was targeted 13 times to the tune of 99 yards and 7 catches...roughly 8 yards a target with one catch netting 1/3 of that yardage.  Lazard was targeted 8 times for just 4 catches and 35 yards...only 4.5 yards a target.  There is zero downfield threat in the passing game right now because the players on the roster who could legitimately provide it are not being thrown the ball in those scenarios.  Doubs is getting there, but Watson needs to be more involved than jet sweeps and flip passes while he's streaking across the formation in motion.  Basically 40 passing plays and 20 rushing plays in Sunday's game, an unacceptable ratio when at one point the team was up 2 touchdowns and ran the ball just fine throughout when RB's actually were handed the ball.

[CheezWizHed]

Ironically, I thought the biggest problem Rodgers had was simply in forcing the ball down field too much and in succession. Hitting Cobb a lot was fine...because he was open and often made for big plays.  It bothered (or still bothers?) me how he forced the ball to Adams in last year's playoff game because he often wasn't open and rarely made a big play (often incomplete or tackled immediately). But I see what happened with Cobb as a completely different (and more positive) outcome by comparison.

The RPO passes vs runs is challenging... It worked great with Doubs against the Patriots.  But we clearly stopped using Jones (again) last week. Balance is the obvious need as Rodgers seems to get compulsive about his options and gets unidirectional.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Hitting Cobb a lot was fine...because he was open and often made for big plays. 

But Cobb only caught half the balls thrown his way...early in the game he did make some big plays, but the 2nd half pass distribution was very frustrating...

Rodgers threw at either Lazard or Cobb 11 times, going 4-11 for 49 yards.

Rodgers threw at everyone else on their roster 4 times, going 3-4 for 26 yards.  There was also an incomplete deep throw towards Dobbs that resulted in an illegal contact penalty.

Part of this issue is the defense just not getting off the damn field from midway through the 2nd quarter until the end of the game whenever the Giants had the ball, really limiting GB's offensive possessions.

[igor67]

I feel like Rodgers trust issues stem from being paranoid about interceptions and overly focused on giving one up because the receiver is in the 'wrong' spot

[HarveysWBs]

I agree with a lot of what has been said here.  

Interestingly, Andy Herman had Cobb as the second-highest graded Packer in the Giants game—which is great! Until you realize that it mostly came in the first half, and Cobb had a brutal drop in the second half when the Packers desperately needed offense, and oh by the way the only player to grade higher was Romeo Doubs who got like four targets… But by some metrics, the offense is tantalizingly close. The staple plays (designed runs as well as run/pass options) of the system are actually more effective this year than last year.

But want the nightmare scenario?  Rodgers has been solved.  

In this offense they use so many RPOs (which is both a MLF system thing and a Rodgers likes to diagnose pre-snap thing) that a defensive play caller can effectively dictate to the offense what is going to happen, ala Wink Martindale in the second half this past week (as the antithesis to Joe Barry, who probably hasn’t dictated anything in his life, not even to Siri).  How, you ask?  By simply loading the box and showing single safety and/or cover zero.  Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, Rodgers checks to the pass (thus neutralizing Green Bay’s best player on offense, Aaron Jones), most of the rushers come but maybe a random one drops into coverage, and one of three things happens next:  1) Newman folds like a cheap suit for a sack/throwaway, 2) Rodgers forces the ball to his predetermined target with no time to go through progressions for a short gain/incomplete, or 3) finds the guy who has beat single coverage.  Now you’d probably think, “ok, the defense is gambling on getting options one or two, but three is a big win for the Packers, right?”  Except Rodgers has become Drew Brees in just the last two years.  He can’t throw deep, to the point that even attempting it is now actively hurting the offense.

As I and others have said, getting Newman off the field will help a lot, but it may be academic if Rodgers can’t start connecting on deep balls.  If that part of his game stays this bad, the Packers are probably cooked.

[UpandIn]

4 hours ago, HarveysWBs said:

 He can’t throw deep, to the point that even attempting it is now actively hurting the offense.

As I and others have said, getting Newman off the field will help a lot, but it may be academic if Rodgers can’t start connecting on deep balls.  If that part of his game stays this bad, the Packers are probably cooked.

I don't think the problem is that Rodgers CAN'T throw deep...but who is he throwing to? Doubs isn't going to be a consistent deep threat when he's THEE deep threat on the field. Cobb was never a deep threat. He snuck behind the defense a couple times in big plays, but he's never been a guy you want lining up on the outside and going up and getting the ball. 

I think losing MVS hurt a lot. Last year he looked like he was really breaking out, he just kept getting hurt. He looks really good in KC(and he'd almost certainly be back if the Adams situation was decided earlier). 

So we bring in Watkins who is an alright deep threat, but one you know isn't going to play regularly.

Watson is a great deep threat...when he can stay on the field, catch the ball and Rodgers actually trusts him. Rodgers can still put the ball where he wants it. 

But at least there's a chance. Get Watson out there, just hit a couple(also though, maybe sit him the next couple weeks as he's obviously just re-injuring that leg). 

A DJ Moore trade could be outstanding. I'd even give up a 2nd if the Panthers restructured his contract to give him a 10M SB right now and take 10M off his guaranteed base salary next year.

 

 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

9 hours ago, UpandIn said:

I don't think the problem is that Rodgers CAN'T throw deep...but who is he throwing to? Doubs isn't going to be a consistent deep threat when he's THEE deep threat on the field. Cobb was never a deep threat. He snuck behind the defense a couple times in big plays, but he's never been a guy you want lining up on the outside and going up and getting the ball. 

I think losing MVS hurt a lot. Last year he looked like he was really breaking out, he just kept getting hurt. He looks really good in KC(and he'd almost certainly be back if the Adams situation was decided earlier). 

So we bring in Watkins who is an alright deep threat, but one you know isn't going to play regularly.

Watson is a great deep threat...when he can stay on the field, catch the ball and Rodgers actually trusts him. Rodgers can still put the ball where he wants it. 

But at least there's a chance. Get Watson out there, just hit a couple(also though, maybe sit him the next couple weeks as he's obviously just re-injuring that leg). 

A DJ Moore trade could be outstanding. I'd even give up a 2nd if the Panthers restructured his contract to give him a 10M SB right now and take 10M off his guaranteed base salary next year.

 

 

I have been continuously writing off a potential OBJ deal, but the skillset he would provide does make a lot of sense given what they currently have in the WR corps. Health would have to check out, obviously, but having a proven deep threat out there, even as a decoy, would go a long way toward opening up the offense.

[UpandIn]

27 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

I have been continuously writing off a potential OBJ deal, but the skillset he would provide does make a lot of sense given what they currently have in the WR corps. Health would have to check out, obviously, but having a proven deep threat out there, even as a decoy, would go a long way toward opening up the offense.

Yeah...I'm not a big fan of OBJ either...and I'm not sure he's a deep threat any longer(maybe he is). 

DJ Moore is the guy. Might be a Von Miller type situation though. Get the Panthers to convert ~10M of his 2023 base into a signing bonus and we just might have to give up a 2nd rounder for him(maybe throw Amari back just because...why not). 

Or sign Will Fuller? He's fragile.

And I still think Watson will play a role. Maybe it'll be later in the season, but you can't count on that. So if it IS OBJ, or if it's Moore, or you trade with Detroit for DJ Chark. He was an obvious trade target.

But sure, I don't care who it is. I do think some of this is gonna kinda start coming together. I think the OL will get better, I think the chemistry with the young guys will get better. The defense will get better. But maybe more than ever, it's important to go out and get another piece for this team. No sense in pushing in 950K in chips and then folding. Push that last 50K in.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

6 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Yeah...I'm not a big fan of OBJ either...and I'm not sure he's a deep threat any longer(maybe he is). 

DJ Moore is the guy. Might be a Von Miller type situation though. Get the Panthers to convert ~10M of his 2023 base into a signing bonus and we just might have to give up a 2nd rounder for him(maybe throw Amari back just because...why not). 

Or sign Will Fuller? He's fragile.

And I still think Watson will play a role. Maybe it'll be later in the season, but you can't count on that. So if it IS OBJ, or if it's Moore, or you trade with Detroit for DJ Chark. He was an obvious trade target.

But sure, I don't care who it is. I do think some of this is gonna kinda start coming together. I think the OL will get better, I think the chemistry with the young guys will get better. The defense will get better. But maybe more than ever, it's important to go out and get another piece for this team. No sense in pushing in 950K in chips and then folding. Push that last 50K in.

Moore would be a terrific get. But the Packers are notoriously conservative when it comes to these types of potential deals, which makes me think that if Moore is really on the table, they will be outbid.

What about Robbie Anderson? They've flirted with him in the past, and the price to get him I imagine wouldn't be nearly as high ... maybe a mid-round pick? He would bring speed and big-play ability.

[UpandIn]

2 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Moore would be a terrific get. But the Packers are notoriously conservative when it comes to these types of potential deals, which makes me think that if Moore is really on the table, they will be outbid.

What about Robbie Anderson? They've flirted with him in the past, and the price to get him I imagine wouldn't be nearly as high ... maybe a mid-round pick? He would bring speed and big-play ability.

Well...I think Moore would be actually cheap if they just traded for his current contract. I don't know a lot of teams would want to take on that nearly 20M base next year. We do get the benefit of getting him at a discount and we could restructure.

But I think the tendencies are kinda out the window. They traditionally never pushed money down the road and I don't know what Gutekunst will do. This is a guy who just traded two 2nd round picks to move up in the 2nd(a very aggressive move) to get a WRer. That particular WRer may take longer, and with the very real chance that we're looking at Rodgers final year, who knows?

Robbie Anderson would be good as well. 

Mike Gesicki is still a guy to keep an eye on. He's basically a slot. He's not a deep threat, but he is an explosive talent. Curtis Samuel is another guy I was really high on, but with Cobb and then Rodgers, that seemed less likely. The thought being here, if they're going to lean on the deep threats they currently have, they could at least add some guys who can open up the field a little more with the intermediate routes. 

 

Kinda wonder what this offense would look like with Darren Waller if Adams had signed the franchise tender(without it, they couldn't include players, only picks, so the proposed 1st+Waller became a 1st+2nd). Then we went back and tried talk about Waller for a 2nd and the Raiders balked. 

 

Really, the whole Adams situation may play out well in the long run. Love Quay has huge upside as does Watson, but the timing was really bad for our WRer room outside of just him. ONE week earlier and maybe we sign MVS, JuJu, OR...DJ Chark who is a pretty damn good player and a really good fit in this scheme. Also seems like the type of guy Detroit signed almost so they could flip him like a Baseball team would. A 1 year deal? Now they have Williams coming back, St. Brown and a pretty nice WRing core and Chark is on a one year deal?

 

Call everyone. Don't let some stupid team trade a D-Hop for next to nothing. 

 

[HarveysWBs]

12 hours ago, UpandIn said:

I don't think the problem is that Rodgers CAN'T throw deep...but who is he throwing to? Doubs isn't going to be a consistent deep threat when he's THEE deep threat on the field. Cobb was never a deep threat. He snuck behind the defense a couple times in big plays, but he's never been a guy you want lining up on the outside and going up and getting the ball. 

I think losing MVS hurt a lot. Last year he looked like he was really breaking out, he just kept getting hurt. He looks really good in KC(and he'd almost certainly be back if the Adams situation was decided earlier). 

So we bring in Watkins who is an alright deep threat, but one you know isn't going to play regularly.

Watson is a great deep threat...when he can stay on the field, catch the ball and Rodgers actually trusts him. Rodgers can still put the ball where he wants it. 

But at least there's a chance. Get Watson out there, just hit a couple(also though, maybe sit him the next couple weeks as he's obviously just re-injuring that leg). 

A DJ Moore trade could be outstanding. I'd even give up a 2nd if the Panthers restructured his contract to give him a 10M SB right now and take 10M off his guaranteed base salary next year.

 

 

I partially agree with you, since I don’t think Rodgers has really hit the wall as hard as the numbers suggest (although in the first half of the Giants game, he had Cobb for six up the seam and just threw a duck into the defender’s back instead of putting it out in front, so it isn’t like this is all just an MVS/Watson dropped passes situation).

However, you are absolutely correct in that having a player that can get open without always having to be schemed open is an issue, and that in theory, the solution is in-house.  But the law firm of Watson and Watkins is currently in the ambulance instead of chasing it.

I’d be all the way down for a trade.  If Moore or Claypool comes available, I’m not sure I’d even balk at a 1st rounder, if they have reason to think Rodgers is done after this year.  But I’m not expecting anything to happen, because we’ve all seen this movie before.

[NBBrewFan]

18 hours ago, UpandIn said:

A DJ Moore trade could be outstanding. I'd even give up a 2nd if the Panthers restructured his contract to give him a 10M SB right now and take 10M off his guaranteed base salary next year.

Good Idea!  Can we swing it for a 3rd round plus?  We don't need that pick anyways since we never get anything of value for them through the draft.

[UpandIn]

1 hour ago, NBBrewFan said:

Good Idea!  Can we swing it for a 3rd round plus?  We don't need that pick anyways since we never get anything of value for them through the draft.

I hate the 3rd round. 4th round however seems outstanding. 

[UpandIn]

7 hours ago, HarveysWBs said:

I partially agree with you, since I don’t think Rodgers has really hit the wall as hard as the numbers suggest (although in the first half of the Giants game, he had Cobb for six up the seam and just threw a duck into the defender’s back instead of putting it out in front, so it isn’t like this is all just an MVS/Watson dropped passes situation).

However, you are absolutely correct in that having a player that can get open without always having to be schemed open is an issue, and that in theory, the solution is in-house.  But the law firm of Watson and Watkins is currently in the ambulance instead of chasing it.

I’d be all the way down for a trade.  If Moore or Claypool comes available, I’m not sure I’d even balk at a 1st rounder, if they have reason to think Rodgers is done after this year.  But I’m not expecting anything to happen, because we’ve all seen this movie before.

I wouldn't love a 1st, but I'm real confident the OL is going to be fine, I think the defense is way too talented to not be good...so yeah, screw it...give up a 1st if it means Claypool. I wouldn't do it for Moore though. 

[CheezWizHed]

I saw ESPN propose Claypool+7th rounder for Amari Rodgers+4th rounder.  I couldn't do that trade fast enough... ?

Except maybe give away a 3rd rounder instead of a 4th...

[HarryDoyle]

I thought this was hilarious.

https://wisportsheroics.com/espn-roasts-packers-joe-barrys-defense-for-being-soft-video/?fbclid=IwAR3r4Iz4mCscRCiafwGGdklAgMPFa2g6j2dJ3_6Ftaa6O8rqlWWU5smB3GM

At the top it says Barry is making changes to the defense this week, but that could mean DBs will be playing 12 yards off instead of 8.

[HarryDoyle]

In more somber news, Tyrone Davis passed away the other day.

https://www.packers.com/news/former-packers-tight-end-tyrone-davis-dead-at-50?fbclid=IwAR36VGLn8vpqGuYUi4N2_n5mDaUo1g2oEUDMd1-pwfqd5UrDR0Ovieu6JBg

[adambr2]

Good news, fellas. The 2023 NFL draft is absolutely loaded with potential franchise QBs, and the way we're playing, by golly, we just might have a shot at one. 

[HarryDoyle]

31 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Good news, fellas. The 2023 NFL draft is absolutely loaded with potential franchise QBs, and the way we're playing, by golly, we just might have a shot at one. 

Aw, come on. You know they're going to use it on defense again.

[adambr2]

Imagine if the Packers had taken this. The Packers would have had:

3 1sts and 3 2nds this year to add talent.

A couple likely top 15 picks in '23, one of which they could have used to draft their future franchise QB.

Instead, Gute went all in on one more ride with Rodgers.  He must be absolutely kicking himself. 

[HarveysWBs]

Saw this from Saleh after the game and...what can you say?  I mean, I don't know how MLF even gets out of bed tomorrow.  The man is your best friend on the planet earth*, and his team doesn't just emasculate yours on the field, he talks about how he told his team that it was going to happen at halftime, and that your team would let it happen.  And that is exactly how it played out.

Someday, a sports historian will write the definitive history of the decade-plus since the Super Bowl over Pittsburgh, and their thesis can simply be this press conference.  All you had to do to beat the Packers was hit them in the mouth over and over again, and they would give in to you.  Maybe it would happen early, maybe it would be later, but the Packers wouldn't hit back.  And that is all she wrote.

 

*As a separate, but possibly related issue, maybe LaFleur should stop talking about football people being his friends.  These things don't seem to work out too well afterwards.  The only one he can beat consistently is McVay, while Shanahan and Saleh beat him like a rented mule repeatedly, especially when the Packers most seem to need a win.

I have seen more than a few observers question whether LaFleur has what it takes to be a top-level coach in this league.  I can't even begin to have enough information to make that determination, but I know that from the outside, games like this happening so frequently does nothing for the perception of his quality.  Of course, how well do any of us know anyone who is any sort of celebrity, but by all accounts LaFleur is one of the most genuine, kind-hearted, and stand-up guys in the business.  I recall an August article in The Ringer about LaFleur (in hindsight, rather cringingly titled "Is This the Year Matt LaFleur Finally Gets the Credit He Deserves").  In it is a salient passage talking to Dolphins HC McDaniel (another fruit off the Shanahan/McVay tree) and his insight into LaFleur:

Quote

“He is, and I mean this with all sincerity, out of all the people that I’ve known in life, in this profession or not, the most trustworthy human being I’ve ever met,” McDaniel said. “There’s no question in my mind I could trust him with anything. He will do something even if it’s worse for him. He will choose integrity over outcome or a game. You could trust him with your life or your family.” He said that if he was going through something and had to call one person who he knows would drop everything, it would be LaFleur. He guesses that if he called him 20 minutes before a Packers game and he’s got a problem, LaFleur might skip the pregame speech.

I have thought of this quote often as the last few months have progressed.  It suggests that, number one, virtues like those held by LaFleur are not the norm in this line of work.  And, number two, while I would certainly not pin all of the agonizing inability of the organization to reach the top on a sort of "aw, shucks, we're just too swell a guy to be a champion" line of argument, it has some legs to it.  LaFleur is miles away from a Belichick, or even a Saleh or a Shanahan.  You look at LaFleur and how he reacted to Shanahan after the 49ers tried to poach Rodgers during the offseason of discontent, and LaFleur seemed genuinely wounded.  The whole affair had noticeably soured their relationship as if LaFleur sincerely believed there were lines, even in football, that a man should not cross with his friends.  The post-game handshake after the regular season win in 2021 only reiterated this; they looked like anything but friends at that point.  Maybe none of Shanahan, Saleh, or McDaniels (who certainly has some of the luster off his reputation for virtue after the Tua incident this year), or any of the others in his circle ever win a championship.  And LaFleur's story seems far from finished at this point.  But I am reasonably certain whose mindset and attitude dominates this league, and it isn't LaFleur's.

I can't help but wonder, in twenty or thirty years time, who will be most condemned by this assessment, LaFleur or the league?  Will succeeding generations look back and wonder at our savagery, as we lifted up an industry and turned it into the most-watched, most-lucrative sporting spectacle in American history, and missed the inherent inhumanity of it all?  Will our descendants marvel with horror at our kinship with the ancient Romans, who spilled day after day into arenas across an empire not so different than our own, lusting for blood and bragging rights amidst a bacchanalian atmosphere of gluttony and intoxication, as men became monsters for our amusement?  And oh how we cheered that men might give of their bodies--and of their very souls--that their names might be etched on a monument of silver, and figuratively carry us to immortality along with them.

But, never mind.  Just another Sunday night for this faithful fan, and perhaps I'm just the one with too much intoxication.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Put the beverage down man

[homer]

Any guards or centers available via trade? Maybe three of them?

[adambr2]

1 hour ago, homer said:

Any guards or centers available via trade? Maybe three of them?

We have one of the best guards in the game. Who is also one of the worst tackles in the game. And we are playing him at...tackle.