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Too Early 2023 Ideas (or beyond)


As I look at our top prospects playing well, I was daydreaming about the near future. So I was thinking about what to do next year.

Obviously we have a ton of Outfield talent and 7 quality starting options for next year (counting Small).

Here is a go in no order.

1)Decline Wong's 10 million option (maybe pickup and trade if he ends the season well). 

2) Trade for a middle of the order bat. I need to organize my thoughts on who but we need someone to impart more consistency in this lineup. I doubt we have money to afford a quality free agent.

3)Pickup Boxburger option.

4)Offer Rogers and Peterson fair deals but don't overpay. Something like 2/14 to Rogers and 1/4 with a 2nd club option for Jace.

5) Let Omar and Cutch walk. We have 4 (or 5) decent options at catcher and enough DH options that can do as well as Cutch.

6) Trade a starter, this might go with #2 depending on who is available.

 

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Middle of the order trade options.

Obvious) Reynolds, Mullins, ???

Interesting) Nick Castellanos, Cody Bellinger, Austin Meadows, Brandon Lowe, Yancy Diaz, Luke Voit, Lourdes Gurriel

Keep Dreaming) Trout, Ohtani, Jose Ramirez, Devers, Cron, Munetaka Murakami ( Japan 3B sensation)

Free Agent Maybes) Mancini, JD Martinez, Brantley, Haniger, Bell, Pederson

There are some pretty iffy guys on the Interesting list and I am sure I missed a few.

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If you are trading either Woodruff or Burnes I don't believe it would be a good idea to invest much in free agency.  It would just be wasted resources to invest in free agency if you are trading Woodruff or Burnes.  

If the Brewers keep both Woodruff and Burnes then FA is probably not something the Brewers are going to play much in maybe if they can get someone on a one or two year deal around $15m annually at most. 

I think Mullins and Reynolds can be crossed off the list as possible trade targets.  It just doesn't make sense for the Orioles to trade Mullins unless it is in a deal for Burnes or Woodruff but then that doesn't make much sense for the Brewers.  I don't believe the Pirates will trade Reynolds unless they get a Soto like return or more.  I don't see any team giving the Pirates that for Reynolds so he is going to stay with the Pirates.  I don't believe a single team even got farther than asking if Reynolds was available this deadline.  The Pirates are just not interested in trading him unless a team severely over pays.

If the Brewers go the FA route I think they go with someone like Gallo and hope for a bounce back year for him on a one or two year deal.  I think that would be the only OF they would go after.

At 1B/DH I think the Brewers just move Yelich to DH permanently and don't go after a FA to play there.  Maybe at 1B the Brewers add someone like Mancini to platoon with Tellez.  I don't believe the Brewers will spend all that much in FA this coming off season and if they do it will be maybe one or two players but that is about it.  

As for trades I just don't see anyone who will be available that will be a major improvement over what the Brewers already have.  The only player that will be available who would be an improvement over what the Brewers have now is Ohtani and I just don't see the Angels trading him.  The options are limited in the trade market.  With how the Orioles have played this year I think they will be looking to add and not substract from their MLB roster so as previously pointed out Mullins is off the table.

The best option this off season would be to trade Burnes or Woodruff and try to do a soft reset and bring in as much talent as possible. 

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For next year: Decline Wong's ($8.5M  w/ $2M buyout) $10M option.  Let Omar ($5M), McCutchen ($8.5), Peterson ($1.8M), and Rogers go. With Hader's and Cain's salary gone, it should provide more than enough to sign a decent FA (Drury?)and pay all the arby guys. Put Urias at 2B where his greatest value lies. Hiura becomes the DH. Bring up one of the young CFs from AAA and let Taylor be the 4th OF.  Turang (2B-SS-CF) takes Peterson's place as the super utility guy along with Brosseau. Caratini becomes the main catcher and it's time to see what Feliciano can do as the back-up. Stearns has to make the tough decision on Woodruff and Burnes. Both would be highly desirable with two years remaining before FA. 

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6 minutes ago, wntrtxn21 said:

For next year: Decline Wong's ($8.5M  w/ $2M buyout) $10M option.  Let Omar ($5M), McCutchen ($8.5), Peterson ($1.8M), and Rogers go. With Hader's and Cain's salary gone, it should provide more than enough to sign a decent FA (Drury?)and pay all the arby guys. Put Urias at 2B where his greatest value lies. Hiura becomes the DH. Bring up one of the young CFs from AAA and let Taylor be the 4th OF.  Turang (2B-SS-CF) takes Peterson's place as the super utility guy along with Brosseau. Caratini becomes the main catcher and it's time to see what Feliciano can do as the back-up. Stearns has to make the tough decision on Woodruff and Burnes. Both would be highly desirable with two years remaining before FA. 

I agree with most of this. It would be interesting to see what we could get back by trading Woodruff or Burnes, but it would sadden me too considering both are homegrown. It would be mind-blowing to trade both, but then all signals would point to punting 2023. Trading one for an area of need and prospects would be reasonable. 

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1 hour ago, rickh150 said:

I agree with most of this. It would be interesting to see what we could get back by trading Woodruff or Burnes, but it would sadden me too considering both are homegrown. It would be mind-blowing to trade both, but then all signals would point to punting 2023. Trading one for an area of need and prospects would be reasonable. 

Good catch. I didn't mean to trade both. The Brewers can't remain competitive if they trade both.  Obviously Burnes has the most value and I believe he would bring quite a haul if traded to the right team.  Trading Woodruff could fill a hole and bring a young SP. I wish the Brewers had the money to keep both for 4-5 more years, but baseball reality says no way. 

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I was thinking more along the lines of trading Lauer, however if getting a bat means Woody (or Burnes) has to go so be it.

Obviously Devers would be perfect but to trade him we would need to trade Yelich and sign Devers. All of that seems next to impossible, I'm sure Devers would want 8 ish year at close to 30 mill.

Here is my idea.

Trade= Yelich, Urias, and Woody(probably a prospect or 2 from Boston)to Angel's, Boston gets Ohtani, We get Devers and a secondary piece from somewhere. Devers get 8/240 with an opt out in 4 years.

Would Eric Lauer (maybe a smaller secondary piece) get someone like Brandon Lowe or Yandy Diaz? 

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16 hours ago, wntrtxn21 said:

For next year: Decline Wong's ($8.5M  w/ $2M buyout) $10M option.  Let Omar ($5M), McCutchen ($8.5), Peterson ($1.8M), and Rogers go. With Hader's and Cain's salary gone, it should provide more than enough to sign a decent FA (Drury?)and pay all the arby guys. Put Urias at 2B where his greatest value lies. Hiura becomes the DH. Bring up one of the young CFs from AAA and let Taylor be the 4th OF.  Turang (2B-SS-CF) takes Peterson's place as the super utility guy along with Brosseau. Caratini becomes the main catcher and it's time to see what Feliciano can do as the back-up. Stearns has to make the tough decision on Woodruff and Burnes. Both would be highly desirable with two years remaining before FA. 

So you've got

2-Caratini

3-Tellez

4-Urias

5- Free agent

6-Adames

7-Yelich

8- Rookie

9-Renfroe

DH- Hiura

How does that make the team better, unless they sign a proven all-star third basemen (which none project to even be free agents in 2023 and its even less likely the Brewers would sign a 20+ million dollar per year free agent anyways)? You're probably right that they will decline the option on Wong, and the other players on expiring contracts will walk as fee agents, but this is a 2nd rate lineup. I would sure hope they would mix it up more in actually trying to make their offense better. 

Moreover, if the Brewers trade Woodruff or Burnes it means they're not intending to compete in the immediate future which would in turn render Renfroe, Caratini (not to mention Matt Bush and Trevor Gott) surplusage and they should probably be jettisoned to in that type of scenario as well. 

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Mark A thought signing McCutchen at one year and $8.5 million was a big deal so that tells you all you need to know about free agency for the Brewers. Don’t get your hopes up. Anything big will have to be done via trade.

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I think the Brewers will have to seriously consider trading one of Burnes or Woodruff this off season.  With the Brewers budget constraints I don't see how the Brewers improve the team next year over what the Brewers currently have.  

The Brewers will already have to depend on at least three of Feliciano, Frelick, Mitchell, Ruiz, Turang or Wiemer.  Rookies can be a huge question mark performance wise as they adjust to MLB and as MLB adjusts to them.  Not to mention that Yelich and Hiura are both huge question marks offensively.  Both Hiura and Yelich are both DH only at this point right now as Yelich has completely declined in the OF.  

With little money to spend on a free agent I just don't see the Brewers playing all that much in free agency if they do it will probably just be bringing McCutchen back or someone like Gallo on a prove it type of a deal.  I think the Brewers are going to have a hard time improving the team without trading one of Burnes or Woodruff.  

Yelich is unlikely to be traded and if he is you would have to bring back another bad contract like Rendon but even that would require the Angels to kick in about $30m to even out the value.  If you don't want to bring in a bad contract then you will need to add Yelich to a Burnes package and then you are getting even less prospects back.  You may only get back one 50FV prospect back in that deal maybe even less.  

The Brewers are basically stuck with Yelich right now so any trades involving him are pure fantasy at this point.  The other problem is Yelich can block a trade to any team so the Brewers would have to ask Yelich on teams he would approve a trade to.  This will hurt Yelich's value even more.   

As for Lauer and Houser you are probably looking at prospects at A ball or lower for them.  I don't think you will get MLB ready pieces for them and if you do it is probably a AAAA type of a player or someone who is blocked.  Lauer I believe has more value than Houser due to Houser's recent injury.  

I think a trade with the Rangers for the Brewers makes the most sense either Burnes, Lauer or Woodruff.  Something like Lauer for Acosta would be fair right now though if Acosta continues to hit in A ball like he has he maybe worth more than what you can get back for Lauer.  

If you are trading Lauer or Houser then you will be relying on Small to be that #5/6 starter and if you are trading one of Burnes or Woodruff he is basically in the rotation as your #5 depending on what comes back in the Burnes or Woodruff trade(s).  

I still believe a soft reset is what the Brewers are going to do this off season.  I am not sure that is the right answer but a full blowup isn't needed either.  Frelick, Turang, Ruiz and Feliciano all should be up at some point in 2023 those are guaranteed call ups I believe.  Then you have Mitchell, Wiemer and Small as strong possible callups in 2023 and then you have Gasser with a slight chance of being called up in 2023.  This would then set up the Brewers rather well in 2024.  

I think 2023 will be a down year for the Brewers with 2024 being a rebound year.  I believe the best option would be to trade Burnes this off season and try to get as many players back as possible.  

I think this trade works for both the Brewers and the Orioles.  The Orioles need some pitching to go with their younger prospects and they could possibly extend Burnes as they don't have much in the way of payroll currently.  This would be a better option than going the FA route for a pitcher.  

Orioles get: Burnes

Brewers get: Mayo (1B), Norby (2B), Rodriguez (RHP) and Westburg (2B/SS) or Brewers get: Henderson (3B), Johnson (RHP) and Mayo (1B).  

The Brewers would get a top of the rotation starter who could be in the rotation in 2023 in Rodriguez.  Mayo is a slugging 1B who was recently promoted to AA.  Norby and Westburg are the wild cards here and both have hit better as they moved up a level.  Norby is in AA and Westburg is in AAA.  The second trade gives the Brewers a new starting 3B for 2023 in Henderson and then also Johnson who the Orioles received in the Mancini trade.  Johnson is currently recovering from TJ surgery.

I like the first trade better as it gives the Brewers more rolls at the prospect dice and more ammunition for a future trade with Norby and Westburg added to the mix.  

Option one gives the Brewers a rotation in 2023 of: Woodruff, Peralta, Ashby, Lauer and Rodriguez.  Still a good rotation that should allow the Brewers to compete.  The offense on the other hand will be about the same.  In 2024 is where this deal shines where you have Woodruff, Peralta, Ashby, Rodriguez and Gasser.  Lauer and Houser would have been traded in the 2023 deadline for a prospect or two.  You could even trade Woodruff and place Small as the #5 for 2024.  

Option two gives the Brewers a slightly better offense in 2023 though with the risk of a lot of rookies in the lineup. The 2024 season though would be a make or break year for the Brewers as Woodruff will be on his last year.  Though the Brewers could trade Woodruff during the 2023 deadline and bring in more prospects.   

C : Caratini and Feliciano

1B: Tellez, Hiura and Brosseau

2B: Turang and Urias

3B: Henderson, Brosseau and Urias

SS: Adames, Turang and Urias

RF: Renfroe and Taylor

CF: Frelick, Taylor and Turang

LF: Yelich, Renfroe, Taylor and Frelick

DH: Hiura, Tellez, Yelich and Renfroe

There are some other options where the Brewers could trade both Renfroe and Adames to clear some space financially.  Urias is also another possibility to be traded.  Still though the Brewers best option this off season is probably to trade one of Burnes or Woodruff.  

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41 minutes ago, nate82 said:

I think the Brewers will have to seriously consider trading one of Burnes or Woodruff this off season.  With the Brewers budget constraints I don't see how the Brewers improve the team next year over what the Brewers currently have.  

The Brewers will already have to depend on at least three of Feliciano, Frelick, Mitchell, Ruiz, Turang or Wiemer.  Rookies can be a huge question mark performance wise as they adjust to MLB and as MLB adjusts to them.  Not to mention that Yelich and Hiura are both huge question marks offensively.  Both Hiura and Yelich are both DH only at this point right now as Yelich has completely declined in the OF.  

With little money to spend on a free agent I just don't see the Brewers playing all that much in free agency if they do it will probably just be bringing McCutchen back or someone like Gallo on a prove it type of a deal.  I think the Brewers are going to have a hard time improving the team without trading one of Burnes or Woodruff.  

Yelich is unlikely to be traded and if he is you would have to bring back another bad contract like Rendon but even that would require the Angels to kick in about $30m to even out the value.  If you don't want to bring in a bad contract then you will need to add Yelich to a Burnes package and then you are getting even less prospects back.  You may only get back one 50FV prospect back in that deal maybe even less.  

The Brewers are basically stuck with Yelich right now so any trades involving him are pure fantasy at this point.  The other problem is Yelich can block a trade to any team so the Brewers would have to ask Yelich on teams he would approve a trade to.  This will hurt Yelich's value even more.   

As for Lauer and Houser you are probably looking at prospects at A ball or lower for them.  I don't think you will get MLB ready pieces for them and if you do it is probably a AAAA type of a player or someone who is blocked.  Lauer I believe has more value than Houser due to Houser's recent injury.  

I think a trade with the Rangers for the Brewers makes the most sense either Burnes, Lauer or Woodruff.  Something like Lauer for Acosta would be fair right now though if Acosta continues to hit in A ball like he has he maybe worth more than what you can get back for Lauer.  

If you are trading Lauer or Houser then you will be relying on Small to be that #5/6 starter and if you are trading one of Burnes or Woodruff he is basically in the rotation as your #5 depending on what comes back in the Burnes or Woodruff trade(s).  

I still believe a soft reset is what the Brewers are going to do this off season.  I am not sure that is the right answer but a full blowup isn't needed either.  Frelick, Turang, Ruiz and Feliciano all should be up at some point in 2023 those are guaranteed call ups I believe.  Then you have Mitchell, Wiemer and Small as strong possible callups in 2023 and then you have Gasser with a slight chance of being called up in 2023.  This would then set up the Brewers rather well in 2024.  

I think 2023 will be a down year for the Brewers with 2024 being a rebound year.  I believe the best option would be to trade Burnes this off season and try to get as many players back as possible.  

I think this trade works for both the Brewers and the Orioles.  The Orioles need some pitching to go with their younger prospects and they could possibly extend Burnes as they don't have much in the way of payroll currently.  This would be a better option than going the FA route for a pitcher.  

Orioles get: Burnes

Brewers get: Mayo (1B), Norby (2B), Rodriguez (RHP) and Westburg (2B/SS) or Brewers get: Henderson (3B), Johnson (RHP) and Mayo (1B).  

The Brewers would get a top of the rotation starter who could be in the rotation in 2023 in Rodriguez.  Mayo is a slugging 1B who was recently promoted to AA.  Norby and Westburg are the wild cards here and both have hit better as they moved up a level.  Norby is in AA and Westburg is in AAA.  The second trade gives the Brewers a new starting 3B for 2023 in Henderson and then also Johnson who the Orioles received in the Mancini trade.  Johnson is currently recovering from TJ surgery.

I like the first trade better as it gives the Brewers more rolls at the prospect dice and more ammunition for a future trade with Norby and Westburg added to the mix.  

Option one gives the Brewers a rotation in 2023 of: Woodruff, Peralta, Ashby, Lauer and Rodriguez.  Still a good rotation that should allow the Brewers to compete.  The offense on the other hand will be about the same.  In 2024 is where this deal shines where you have Woodruff, Peralta, Ashby, Rodriguez and Gasser.  Lauer and Houser would have been traded in the 2023 deadline for a prospect or two.  You could even trade Woodruff and place Small as the #5 for 2024.  

Option two gives the Brewers a slightly better offense in 2023 though with the risk of a lot of rookies in the lineup. The 2024 season though would be a make or break year for the Brewers as Woodruff will be on his last year.  Though the Brewers could trade Woodruff during the 2023 deadline and bring in more prospects.   

C : Caratini and Feliciano

1B: Tellez, Hiura and Brosseau

2B: Turang and Urias

3B: Henderson, Brosseau and Urias

SS: Adames, Turang and Urias

RF: Renfroe and Taylor

CF: Frelick, Taylor and Turang

LF: Yelich, Renfroe, Taylor and Frelick

DH: Hiura, Tellez, Yelich and Renfroe

There are some other options where the Brewers could trade both Renfroe and Adames to clear some space financially.  Urias is also another possibility to be traded.  Still though the Brewers best option this off season is probably to trade one of Burnes or Woodruff.  

If you trade Burnes or Woodruff there is no reason to keep anyone who is already in arbitration. Those player will not be part of the next good Brewers team; so in such a scenario they should also move on from : the other Burnes or Woodruff, Renfroe, Adames, Urias, Houser, Lauer, Caratini, Bush, and Gott. 

 

 

 

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Don't know if the Rangers would be interested, but they've paid a lot for offense, but have little starting pitching.  I would trade Woodruff to the Rangers for Josh Jung and prospects (lower/lottery). Jung has more upside than anything we have near 3B in the system, and Urias slides over to 2B.  The rangers have Seager and Semian at 2B/SS for the long-term future, but they could move Semien to 3B and promote Foscue for 2B. Not sure what else the Rangers would need to include, but I like Jung. 

I'd also seriously consider bringing up Frelick and Wiemer for the OF (with Yelich the regular DH).  Slot in Jung at 3B and Urias at 2B and that doesn't really cost much more than Woodruff and likely solves some of the offensive issues.

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34 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

If you trade Burnes or Woodruff there is no reason to keep anyone who is already in arbitration. Those player will not be part of the next good Brewers team; so in such a scenario they should also move on from : the other Burnes or Woodruff, Renfroe, Adames, Urias, Houser, Lauer, Caratini, Bush, and Gott. 

 

 

 

Not necessarily.  Depending on the return that you get for a Burnes trade like the one I proposed Rodriguez or Henderson are both in AAA and should be available for 2023 at the earliest maybe 2024 at the latest.  So it wouldn't make any sense to do a complete tear down. 

If you are trading Burnes for players in A ball or lower then yes it would make sense to do a complete tear down but if you are trading for players in AA or AAA then no it does not make any sense at all to do a complete tear down.  You can also trade pieces at a different time.  If the prospects you get from a Burnes or Woodruff trade need more time then you can make another trade to get more prospects.  Doing it all at once doesn't really help at all.  The Brewers still have 2023 and 2024 for Burnes, Woodruff, Adames, Lauer and Houser.  Also Urias will only be heading into Arb-1 next year so he is here through 2025.

Even if you think the prospects are not ready having these players in 2023 start the year with the Brewers isn't a bad idea.  You could even keep them and roll the dice on 2024 with Woodruff/Burnes in the rotation and Adames, Urias and others on the team.  It is nearly impossible to say if the Brewers will be competitive or not in 2024.  

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In Woodruff & Burnes, the Brewers have two very high-end commodities that are not easily replaced.  To me, those two are guys untouchables..... unless you're planning to rebuild, which makes little if any sense at this time.

They have enough SP depth that I think the right type of trade could be a possibility, something along the lines of Grisham/Davies-for-Urias/Lauer.  To me, that's the sort of trade to look for, and I'd be willing to put Small or Houser in that deal.

Hiura HAS to figure out how to put his bat on the ball better.  If Stearns & Co. feel he can't, then I think you trade him while others might still think he has value/potential.  If Stearns & Co. feel they need to move on from Wong, then Hiura has to play everyday until he flat-out proves he either can or can't rediscover his rookie form.  In other words, this part-time thing for Hiura isn't giving him enough of a chance.

Narvaez has me perplexed.  When he's good, he's solid.  I'm not sure if he can be that guy enough of the time.

In short, I think the roster could use some tweaking, but not major overhauls.  I love the suggestions about giving rookies shots, but having at least somewhat proven Plan B's is essential (think role players like Jace Peterson, Mike Brosseau, etc.) if the rookies are flailing miserably.

I agree that with Hader & Cain gone, there are resources to pay the guys who are still here.  Assuming they do that, I think any hitters they bring in need to be good contact/batting average types because the endless stream of unproductive outs is tiring and painful.

I know I bring this up on occasion, but one of the cool innovations back in the late '90s the Brewers were onto for a couple years was a machine that pitched tennis balls at something like 125 mph.  The good-hitting guys of that era (Cirillo, Loretta, Vina, etc.) used that a lot, and it helped them a lot.  I wish the current Brewers would try that thing.  It certainly couldn't hurt.

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I think there is a serious dearth of "needle-moving" bats in MLB right now. In the hypothetical that we trade one of our aces for a big bat, I fear we would end up being very disappointed with the results.

It doesn't feel like it right now, in this post-Hader malaise, but I actually think the FO's strategy to rely on pitching and good depth across the roster (to try and prevent "black holes" in the lineup) is a really good strategy for the small market Brewers.

On paper, this team should be better record-wise. Their dominant pitching has suffered through above-average performance, and injury, and the defense has been the same. I would not be surprised if the Brewers go back to that strategic well one more time in 2023 before trading their aces. At that point, the Brewers will have a much better sense of what they have in Frelick, Wiemer, Chourio, Gasser, et. al, so that they will know what positions they will need to trade for in offseason 2023.

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On 8/15/2022 at 2:51 PM, NBBrewFan said:

Don't know if the Rangers would be interested, but they've paid a lot for offense, but have little starting pitching.  I would trade Woodruff to the Rangers for Josh Jung and prospects (lower/lottery). Jung has more upside than anything we have near 3B in the system, and Urias slides over to 2B.  The rangers have Seager and Semian at 2B/SS for the long-term future, but they could move Semien to 3B and promote Foscue for 2B. Not sure what else the Rangers would need to include, but I like Jung. 

I'd also seriously consider bringing up Frelick and Wiemer for the OF (with Yelich the regular DH).  Slot in Jung at 3B and Urias at 2B and that doesn't really cost much more than Woodruff and likely solves some of the offensive issues.

I like the Josh Jung idea, Brett Baty (mets) and Miguel Vargas (Dodgers) would also be ideal middle of the order 3B prospects who will be MLB ready. In the case of the Rangers they would likely be more desperate for high level pitching.

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I would think Woodruff should get a package around Luis Castillo. Where Lauer would get a little less than Frankie Montas but thier numbers are close the past couple years and Lauer has less injury concern.

Woodruff for 3B Jung, P Owen White, 1B Dustin Harris, and P Cole Raggans

We would get 2 quality arms and 2 potential high end bats.

or 

Lauer for Jung and Raggans

I would guess the Ranger would be a little leary giving up Jung for a #3 starter so. The Woody deal makes more sense.

 

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On 8/16/2022 at 9:46 AM, Playing Catch said:

That makes for a potentially boring off-season, but I believe it is in the best interests of the team in 2023, and in the long-term.

I could really be convinced to go any number of ways. I think the most realistic is we run it back, hope we get more from our own bats and maybe push the payroll a bit with a Jose Abreu type signing. I see he's projected to get ~10-12 over 2-3 years. That seems light. I'd go 2/30 mutual option for 5M if we decline it. Run it back next year with a lineup or PROJECTED lineup by June of 

So, option A-The option I believe Attanasio is more likely to be in favor of, acquire a steady, middle of the order bat. Abreu is the most reasonable or would seem to be the most reasonable in terms of cost and also his production has been remarkably steady. Finally, the White Sox aren't exactly a run prevention team, but they can't really keep running out lineup's with 4-5 1B/DH types. Not spending just to spend or pushing the payroll just to show the fans you're doing something, so if the Sox want to keep Abreu and keep Jimenez, Sheets, Vaughn, etc....if they decide Abreu is too important to their culture, we could offer a package for Jimenez who is an outstanding bat and would become our DH. Lauer+a solid prospect may be a good match for both sides there. The quality of the prospect would be contingent upon the CHW throwing in any money.
Yelich-LF/DH
Adames-SS
Frelick-CF
Abreu-Jimenez/DH/1B
Tellez/Hiura-1B
Renfroe-RF
Urias/Brosseau/Jace-3B
Cartarini/Serverino-C
Turang-2B

Lefties in italics. It's a whole lot to ask Frelick to hit #3, but I think he'll hit near the top of the order and unless Yelich regains his power stroke, atop the order may be the best spot for him.

And you could swap Urias and Turang. I just like that old idea of that sorta 2nd leadoff man hitting 9th. Someone with speed, who walks a lot coming up before the top of the order, but it could create a situation where 3 of 4 hitters are lefties. Not ideal, but just a rough idea.


Option 2-

Put a 5 year 140M dollar extension in front of Burnes.  15/20/28/32/34 15M deferred, team option for 35. Maybe he bites. 
Woodruff maybe 5/110 with a similar structure and a team option.

I don't really expect either to bit, but if one does, then you sign them, play it out and you have a bit more wiggle room to possibly trade pitching for a big bat. You can now use Lauer, Gasser, Houser(though his value is low until he comes back and I'd still be worried he needs the TJ surgery). Point is, if you know that you've got one of those two, plus Ashby, Peralta for the next 5 years, you can be a LITTLE more aggressive in dealing pitching prospects. At this point, you're effectively in a post-Rodgers era. Not a terrible team, but one that wouldn't have World Series ambitions for a year or two(at least).

In the more likely scenario in which they turn them down, I'd look at teams like Texas, Philly, Boston, LAD...and maybe Detroit/Baltimore. 

Burnes+Hunter Renfroe to Texas for Josh Jung, Kumar Rocker, Owen White, Tekoah Roby

Yeah, you get 2 years of a Cy Young, you're gonna get taxed. And for a team that's just spend a defend sized European's GDP on it's IF, fired it's GM because the owner is growing impatient, this is the type of team I could see aggressively pursuing Burnes.

And they get Renfroe. Or hell, throw in Ruiz. But a 60H 3B and then three pitchers with TOR upside.

Woodruff+Devin Williams to LAD for Bobby Miller, Miguel Vargas, Gavin Stone, Dalton Rushing

I might go for Cartaya, but I suspect the Dodger would keep him off the table. MAYBE Williams does get it done, but I doubt it. I also will admit, despite constantly putting up dominant numbers, Williams decreasing velocity has be a bit concerned. When teams can just sit on the change....and if we're trading our two most valuable players, we might as well sell high on Williams.

Walker Buehler down for the rest of this year, won't be the same until 2024. Kimbrel is up and down...not that it matters, the Dodgers collect stud relievers like Yasiel Puig collects speeding tickets. 


I'm sure some will say those teams won't give up those prospects for 2 years of Burnes or Woodruff, I'm sure I'm asking for a lot, but two legitimate aces to two teams who are spending a whole lot to to win now.


I'd also consider a trade involving a swap of Woodruff+Adames+Yelich to Detroit for Javier Baez, 40M, Jung and Wilmer Flores younger brother...Wilmer Flores. If we're going to go through this..."reset," we might as well see if we can Baez back on track. Maybe he opts out after next year. Maybe he has a bounce back year and you can get another team to take on that contract. At Josh's younger brother and another high upside pitcher+ a couple lottery tickets and Detroit gets an ace, a replacement SS and they get their own hope at rebuilding a MVP caliber player. Doesn't seem likely, doesn't help that Willy's not really having a great year at the plate but he's still an upgrade on Baez.

Really just a convoluted way of trying to get out from under the 7 years left on the Yelich deal OR at least cut off a few years, but...I don't see that as likely. 

So we'll stick with

Burnes, Woodruff, Devin Williams, Hunter Renfroe for;

Bobby Miller, Miguel Vargas, Gavin Stone, Dalton Rushing, Josh Jung, Kumar Rocker, Owen White, Tekoah Roby

Lineup would be
1B-Miguel Vargas(He's not a very good defensive 3B due to a poor arm, but he's got the size, glove and athletic ability to be an outstanding 1st basemen).
2B-Luis Urias--->Tyler Black
SS-Brice Turang
3B-Josh Jung
LF-Garrett Mitchell
CF-Sal Frelick
RF-Joey Weimer
C-Cartarini/Severino
DH-Yelich

SP
Peralta
Ashby
Bobby Miller
Lauer
Gavin Stone
Houser
(Minors- Owen White, Kumar Rucker, Tekoah Roby, plus our own Gasser, Small, Miskiorowski, 

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Vargas, Frelick, Jung, all sign 6 years right out of the gates for 50-60M each coming with 3 option years in the 15-20M range.
See how Miller and Stone progress, but Ashby type deals for them could be in order as well. 

Brewers slash the payroll to ~80M this year saving the 50-60-70(Whatever they make) to push the payroll up in a few years when they're competitive to the 160-170 range with the new regional TV deal(that still pays them ~400M less than the big boys) and the 60-70M in National TV money every team is getting. So to use David Stearns analogy, we throw the apple away for the next couple years and get a whole bushel of them for the future. 

 

With all that said, they're ALMOST certainly just going to try and run it back with mostly this same lineup because...when pitching...always gives you a chance and we're really not that far away. We damn near made a world series with 'openers.' 

 

The Burnes/Woodruff scenario is more something I'd do if I was playing a video game and could sim through seasons to get back to the good part. I don't think you actually break up a pitching staff like the one we've got or that just finding highly regarded power arms is a guarantee of anything. But for the "prospect" fan in me, these trades offer a whole lot of future potential and are a lot of fun in theory, probably not so much in application.

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I would like the idea of Abreu and we could probably swing 2/35 or so if we make a trade or 2. However I can't see him leaving the Sox. 

Scenerio=

Trade Woody and Lauer to Rangers for Jung and 4 prospects.

Trade Renfroe and Urais to Miami for P Trevor Rogers

Trade Rowdy and Taylor for to Seattle for OF Kyle Lewis and a pitching prospect

CF Frelich, LF Ruiz/Lewis, DH Yeli, 1B Abreu, 3B Jung, SS Adames, RF Mitchell/Weimer, C Caratini, 2B Turang (4 of 5 young OF on mlb roster at a time)

Utl Brosseau, Utl Huira, C Feliciano/Severino. 

Burnes, Peralta, Rogers, Ashby, Houser, Small

Williams, Bush, Box, Milner, Cousins, Suter, Gott

Granted it would be a ton of overturn that lineup would have massive potential and the pitching would be enough to make a run at something. Also the team would save money and improve the farm (until prospect status ends on everyone)

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3 hours ago, jay87shot said:

I would like the idea of Abreu and we could probably swing 2/35 or so if we make a trade or 2. However I can't see him leaving the Sox. 

Maybe not...which is why I allowed to Jimenez in a trade(and immediately make him a DH).

BUT, despite Abreu being the...Godfather to all the Cubans the CWH have signed, and his production, the fact is, that's a team that has terrible, terrible defense and two pieces who are clearly part of their future who should not see any position on the field other than the dirt on the right side of an IF or the bench. Eloy Jimenez is brutal, Vaughn is already their DH. Sheets...they could do away with him, but he's bad. And Abreu is a FA and he's getting older. If they're going to get better, they'll need pitching. So I'd focus in on them for a bat. They re-sign Abreu, fine, I'd go Lauer+1 of Weimer/Ruiz/Mitchell for Jimenez+Reynaldo López.

I think the CHW with the way their roster is built, it makes the most sense to part with Abreu and the only reason not to would be loyalty. But they'll either keep losing, or reconstruct their roster in a smarter way at some point. This means moving on from someone who can't play defense, but who can hit. 

 

5 hours ago, jay87shot said:

Trade Woody and Lauer to Rangers for Jung and 4 prospects.

If it's Woody and Lauer, we'll likely get less than just Burnes. But I'd demand Jung, White and Roby as 3 of them. Then a couple lower level guys like Teodo and Church. A cornerstone at 3rd, a good pitching prospect and then 3 "Brewer guys" with great stuff, elite spin rates and command issues. 

5 hours ago, jay87shot said:

Trade Renfroe and Urais to Miami for P Trevor Rogers

I feel like I can say this with a certain degree of certainty...that's not enough to get Rogers. The Marlins have one of the best young pitchers, a loaded farm system, they've got more pitchers on their way. Why are they trading 5 years of pitcher who was worth 4-5 WAR last year in just 133 IP for 1 year of Renfroe and Urias?

I see zero upside for the Marlins here. 

6 hours ago, jay87shot said:

Trade Rowdy and Taylor for to Seattle for OF Kyle Lewis and a pitching prospect

This is another one, I just...don't see why Seattle does this. You're selling as low on Lewis as you can. ROY, injured in '21, struggles in '22 and you give him away for Rowdy...a nice bat, but not better than Lance. And Taylor does nothing for them. So it's basically Rowdy for a pitching prospect and then Taylor, who you know is pretty much maxed out, vs Lewis, who still has a ton of upside. Someone who COULD break out(Ala Carlos Gomez). Suarez, Crawford, Frazier(maybe), Lance. They have a whole lot of money to spend and a lot of pieces in place. 

6 hours ago, jay87shot said:

Burnes, Peralta, Rogers, Ashby, Houser, Small

Here's the set back for me in this little exercise. 

This is a half measure to me. To win a WS without a major overhaul, you need 2 aces. I don't think you can expect several young OFers to click at once, plus Turang. 

So I'd really do either one of Burnes/Woody or both. Run it back with both of them, or deal both with 2 years remaining, add 7-8 players who are projected to be up by '24 or sooner(maybe a A ball player or two) and go that route. 

 

Those are two of those most valuable contracts in baseball. But that lineup, as improved as it may be, won't be elite. That pitching staff, unless Rogers bounces back(good bet, but that's why I don't see Miami trading him)...it's basically an ace, a couple 3s, a wild card in Ashby(he could develop into an ace or he could continue to struggle with the finer points) and then Small...who should be solid. 

 

So I'm of the all or nothing mindset at this point. 

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Abreu is not leaving the White Sox the only way he is leaving is if the White Sox don't offer him a contract and then he may just retire instead of playing for another.  All rumors that I have seen or heard say he wants to stay with the White Sox and the feeling is mutual with the White Sox.  So Abreu is not really an option unless the Brewers want to pay him $20m+ for the next 4-years.  That is basically the only way the Brewers would be able to get Abreu and even then I don't think he leaves the White Sox.

I don't believe the Brewers will play in FA this off season I believe what the Brewers have now is what they will go with next season.  Basically Frelick and Turang will be the additions at 2B and CF.  Ruiz may serve as the 5th OF.  That means Peterson, McCutchen, Wong, Narvaez and others will not be back for 2023.  The best option to improve for 2024 would be to trade one or both of Burnes and Woodruff.

I think the Rangers, Tigers and Orioles make the most sense here as they have the prospects to make the trade for either.  I put what I thought the Orioles could give up in a package for Burnes.  Both of the trades for Burnes from the Orioles would be for 2023 and beyond as they have two prospects who are ready in AAA right now.  I am just not sure the Orioles make the trade as they would be gambling on competing in 2023 and 2024 in the AL East.  It is possible but that is a huge gamble though the Orioles would definitely be able to extend Burnes by giving him a rather large contract to stay beyond 2024 as they basically don't have anyone on the books right now.  The Orioles could add $85m and they would be at about what the Brewers are at so if they offer Burnes a 5-year $140m deal I think he accepts that as it is basically the same deal DeGrom signed in 2014.  The Orioles would still have $57m left to spend on other free agents and increases to their own players.  

The Red Sox are also another interesting team to watch but I don't like any of their prospects in a Burnes or Woodruff trade.  Lauer or Houser though some of their prospects would be good to get in a trade.  The Mets would also be a team that I think sneaks in but I don't think they would give up Baty plus more for Burnes.  

For a Mets trade I think this makes the most sense:

Brewers get:

Baty (3B), Mauricio (SS), Ramirez (OF), Vientos (1B) and Ziegler (RHP).  This would give the Brewers their future 3B in Baty for 2023 and a future 1B/DH in Vientos in 2024.  Ramirez and Ziegler are the furthest away.  

With the Rangers recent shakeup in their front office I am not sure they make a trade for Burnes.  If they would have given their GM another year then yes I think they definitely make the trade for Burnes or Woodruff.  The Rangers really need some pitching and maybe they get desperate with how much they spent this past offseason.  I am just not sure how much the Rangers can spend and I think if they do trade for either Burnes or Woodruff they will want to be able to extend them.  I think Woodruff would be the cheaper option to extend and Burnes it would take a DeGrom like deal to get him to sign and you would be basically just buying out the two arbitration years and three free agent years.  

I think Burnes and Woodruff will definitely be the hot topic names this off season for the Brewers.  If Burnes or Woodruff are not traded then I think Lauer/Houser and Adames/Renfroe are probably moved instead.  I think Houser and Renfroe would be the two options the Brewers would prefer to trade as they have replacements for both in Small and Wiemer.  There really isn't a replacement at 3B and if the Brewers are trading players away then free agency wouldn't be an option.  Well it would be someone like Peterson being signed to platoon with Brosseau at 3B.  Urias would then move to 2B and Turang takes over at SS in this scenario.  

The Brewers are in a difficult position this coming off season.  They need to make a move and don't really have the funds to play in FA and nor should they.  

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2 hours ago, nate82 said:

Abreu is not leaving the White Sox the only way he is leaving is if the White Sox don't offer him a contract and then he may just retire instead of playing for another.  All rumors that I have seen or heard say he wants to stay with the White Sox and the feeling is mutual with the White Sox.  So Abreu is not really an option unless the Brewers want to pay him $20m+ for the next 4-years.  That is basically the only way the Brewers would be able to get Abreu and even then I don't think he leaves the White Sox.

I don't believe the Brewers will play in FA this off season I believe what the Brewers have now is what they will go with next season.  Basically Frelick and Turang will be the additions at 2B and CF.  Ruiz may serve as the 5th OF.  That means Peterson, McCutchen, Wong, Narvaez and others will not be back for 2023.  The best option to improve for 2024 would be to trade one or both of Burnes and Woodruff.

I think the Rangers, Tigers and Orioles make the most sense here as they have the prospects to make the trade for either.  I put what I thought the Orioles could give up in a package for Burnes.  Both of the trades for Burnes from the Orioles would be for 2023 and beyond as they have two prospects who are ready in AAA right now.  I am just not sure the Orioles make the trade as they would be gambling on competing in 2023 and 2024 in the AL East.  It is possible but that is a huge gamble though the Orioles would definitely be able to extend Burnes by giving him a rather large contract to stay beyond 2024 as they basically don't have anyone on the books right now.  The Orioles could add $85m and they would be at about what the Brewers are at so if they offer Burnes a 5-year $140m deal I think he accepts that as it is basically the same deal DeGrom signed in 2014.  The Orioles would still have $57m left to spend on other free agents and increases to their own players.  

The Red Sox are also another interesting team to watch but I don't like any of their prospects in a Burnes or Woodruff trade.  Lauer or Houser though some of their prospects would be good to get in a trade.  The Mets would also be a team that I think sneaks in but I don't think they would give up Baty plus more for Burnes.  

For a Mets trade I think this makes the most sense:

Brewers get:

Baty (3B), Mauricio (SS), Ramirez (OF), Vientos (1B) and Ziegler (RHP).  This would give the Brewers their future 3B in Baty for 2023 and a future 1B/DH in Vientos in 2024.  Ramirez and Ziegler are the furthest away.  

With the Rangers recent shakeup in their front office I am not sure they make a trade for Burnes.  If they would have given their GM another year then yes I think they definitely make the trade for Burnes or Woodruff.  The Rangers really need some pitching and maybe they get desperate with how much they spent this past offseason.  I am just not sure how much the Rangers can spend and I think if they do trade for either Burnes or Woodruff they will want to be able to extend them.  I think Woodruff would be the cheaper option to extend and Burnes it would take a DeGrom like deal to get him to sign and you would be basically just buying out the two arbitration years and three free agent years.  

I think Burnes and Woodruff will definitely be the hot topic names this off season for the Brewers.  If Burnes or Woodruff are not traded then I think Lauer/Houser and Adames/Renfroe are probably moved instead.  I think Houser and Renfroe would be the two options the Brewers would prefer to trade as they have replacements for both in Small and Wiemer.  There really isn't a replacement at 3B and if the Brewers are trading players away then free agency wouldn't be an option.  Well it would be someone like Peterson being signed to platoon with Brosseau at 3B.  Urias would then move to 2B and Turang takes over at SS in this scenario.  

The Brewers are in a difficult position this coming off season.  They need to make a move and don't really have the funds to play in FA and nor should they.  

Well, I think this is so overly speculative, it's tough to get too definitive. I know how highly regarded Abreu is in Chicago and how much HE likes playing for Chicago. He's also helped them recruit quite a few Cuban players to that team. But the fact is...they've got a 36 year old 1B/DH and about 4 young players who shouldn't be playing elsewhere. 

So I came up with Abreu. Not just because I think it's up in the air if the White Sox bring him back(there's a lot of speculation both ways, but they aren't the most sentimental organization)...but because in looking at the FA's, there are very few who I see that both A-Meet the Brewers budget restraints even when pushed...as I think they will be next year and B-Are even worth bringing in.

Mitch Haniger, Joc Peterson I guess? Brantley could be an option on a cheaper deal...he hits lefties enough. Very little power, but he can put the ball in place. But I really don't think 10M for 36 year old who should be platooning is worth it.

So Haniger as a bridge to Weimer/Mitchell/Ruiz, none of whom I'm convinced as as ready to contribute. 

 

Burnes-If he'll sign a 5/140 deal with a team option for a 6th year, I'd make that offer. You've got a whole farm system with a ton of young talent. This would be the best chance we'd have to have an ace pitcher who's just on the front end of his prime. I am keenly aware of the Brewers financial limitations, but some players are worth working around. Arguably the 2nd best pitcher in the game...he's one of them. And hell, if things don't work out or you need to get out of it, you'd certainly be able to trade that deal in 2 years short of a serious injury(and even then, it'd be shoulder as we know TJ is a relatively straightforward recovery at this point). 

 

As for the Rangers...the owner seemed pretty pointed in his remarks. They spent big to make the playoffs, Daniels got fired because they haven't. Wouldn't be smart to trade for Woodruff IMO, but throw it out there. If they're willing to trade Jung+White and Roby for Woodruff...even if we have to throw in something like maybe Lauer or Renfroe(again, they're short on OFers and obviously Renfroe would be the preference)...maybe you get lucky. 

 

But as I said, I think it's more likely that the Brewers run it back, they make a fairly substantial trade, they push the payroll into the ~150 range for next year. Dosn't make them players for a big time FA, but we could take back a nice player. If only there were more talented players on the Rockies. Getting Arenado for 7/141 and not a single top 100 prospect was just a robbery. 

Maybe CJ Cron? He could fill a big hole. 1B/DH. Splits are pretty good. He just seems to hit everywhere he goes. And he's signed for one more year and the Rockies aren't close...so why not deal him?

 

There are just so few FA's who fit what we need and the ones who do are mostly coming off years that would make signing them...a poor idea. Josh Bell probably wants 5/85 at least, likely more. 

Drury is struggling, and I'm not all that eager for a 3B who's up and down as a FA and who's also likely to get more than he's worth coming off what has been a very good year. 

 

So you're probably right. A player here or there, nothing that really moves the needle unless one or more of the rookies do and...you just hope maybe Ashby can figure out how to put guys away on 0-2, Freddy can stay healthy, Lauer has another good year.

 

As long as you have 2 viable aces, 2-3 viable #2-3 pitchers and then Adrian Houser, we'll have a shot. I just don't think they're punting on the Burnes/Woodruff era at this point.

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I think the team in 2022 will look a lot like the team in 2023.  The Brewers should be actively seeking relievers.  Wong will be let go making room for a Huira/Turang/Urias platoon at 2nd and 3rd base.  If 2023 starts to fall apart look for the Brewers to make everyone available for the right price.   I don't think the Brewers will be able to keep Adames, Burnes, and Woodruff in 2024 while remaing competitive.

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