What's the plan for Kolten Wong next year?

[torts]

If he keeps hitting dingers they're gunna keep him

[RobDeer 45]

After tonight we should not only sign him but extend him too!

[torts]

4 minutes ago, RobDeer 45 said:

After tonight we should not only sign him but extend him too!

Now we're talking!

[Matt Breen]

The moment I talk down Wong he goes all Judge-like. 

Well done, Kolton.

[UpandIn]

3 hours ago, NBBrewFan said:

I don't think it's uncharacteristic since he peaked defensively in 2019 and has been getting worse each year since.  Last year he was significantly worse than 2019 and this year the trend continues as he is significantly worse than last year.  

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/kolten-wong-543939?stats=statcast-r-fielding-mlb

https://fieldingbible.com/FieldingBiblePlayerTotals

 

Yeah...not uncharacteristic for him at all. ?

[Robocaller]

Wong has been hot since June. I'm warming to the idea of having him return, though I'm still worried about his defense falling off a cliff.

Can Wong, Adames, Urias, Turang, and Brosseau cover 2B-SS-3B?  Might be a little short at 3B unless Urias is the (nearly) everyday 3B. 

Turang is LH hitter, but has reverse splits this year (even last year).

[Robocaller]

5 hours ago, torts said:

If he keeps hitting dingers they're gunna keep him

I dunno. He doesn't strike out enough. #BrewerDNA

[UpandIn]

I didn't expect Wong to go out and have a 3HR game, but he's not sitting at .252/.335/.441 with a .776 OPS

117 WRC+ 15/15 HR/SB

If he finishes this season strong...I really picking up the option and then dealing him is the way to go. With a limited FA market at 2B, Segura is the #1 FA in the "rankings" I've found, but...10M for one year of a player who will have been worth 6 WAR the two previous years and his defense has been much stronger the last couple months. 

I went from thinking it'd be a way to just save a couple million and pick up a low ranked prospect, to...maybe you can get a nice ML reliever for him or a solid prospect. Not saying you'll get a top 100 or a teams top 10, but at 10M for 1 year for a team looking in free agency? That represents pretty good value. 

It might suck, but a deal with the Cards? Gallegos has 2 years left of arbitration, they've got some kids in AAA who can sling it.

Just saying...with each of those Wong bombs, the chances that we might be able to go from paying 2M to get rid of him to actually getting paid by a team to take him...it might bend more towards us actually using him as an asset. 

And hell, if you have to send 2M in a deal to get a nice reliever, a guy who throws in the upper 90s and can be a dominant 7th inning guy, you were gonna spend it either way. 

 

 

I don't know his contract situation or if he has a no-trade, but Tommy Edman is gonna be their SS moving forward(I think) and I'd suck it up and deal with those clowns and he'd almost certainly accept. 

[monty57]

I posted Tuesday that Wong had a wRC+ vs RHP of 130. Hitting 3 HR in a night is a nice surprise, but he's hit RHP really well all year. His overall numbers are lower because he's been horrible against LHP, but as the "big side of a platoon" guy he's a nice player to have around, and offensively a Wong/Brosseau platoon is really good. Defensively, not so much.

As I said earlier, it seems likely that the Brewers decline the option and save $8M, making a spot for Turang. But I don't think it's a "slam dunk" move, as Wong is probably worth the $10M he'd be paid. Having "too much talent" at a position is probably a good problem to have going into an off-season, so we'll see how Stearns works this out.

[NBBrewFan]

11 hours ago, UpandIn said:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/kolten-wong-543939?stats=statcast-r-fielding-mlb

https://fieldingbible.com/FieldingBiblePlayerTotals

 

Yeah...not uncharacteristic for him at all. ?

Plotting so it's a little easier to see (adjusted for fielding Innings):

 

The uncharacteristic data point is OAA for 2019. 

[wntrtxn21]

If Stearns is open to trading Wong, the Mariners come to mind as a good team looking for a reliable 2B. They have players the Brewers would be interested in to make a deal. 

[MrTPlush]

I mean there is a DH spot open. We spent $8.5mil hoping Andrew McCutchen could hit to a mid .700s OPS. I am pretty confident Kolton Wong could do that next year. I am not sure how much better you could expect to get out of the DH spot for $8mil. This is assuming they really don't like Hiura and he won't fill the DH spot next year. Which, honestly, might be the most likely outcome.

In the event Turang mightily struggles it is going to be way easier to shift Wong to 2B and fill the DH role. If you let go of Wong and Turang struggles....well, that's a black hole. 

 

Personally I think the best route to give opportunity to prospects and maximizing our ability to compete next year:

2B: Turang

DH: Wong

LF: Yelich

CF: Mitchell/Frelick

RF: Renfroe

Odds are Mitchell/Frelick and Turang aren't both going to just tear the cover off the ball. Not impossible, but realistically it is 10x more likely both suck if anything. Once one of those two just aren't hitting shift guys around. You definitely could let two of the younger guys take starting roles while holding onto Wong. Then in 2024 the OF really can open up with Renfroe gone and Yelich likely going to 1B/DH.

 

[endaround]

Can we stop with the square pegs in round holes? Turang's bat is passable at shortstop with a decent glove.  It isn't at 2B.  And that is ignoring that he hasn't played 2B.  The Brewers have a capable 2B if Wong goes in Urias (Urias has neither the glove nor the bat for 3B) and a decent 3B platoon if Peterson is re-signed.  The difference between Peterson last year and this year isn't his bat (wRC+ 98 vs wRC+ 101 is basically noise) but playing more 3B where he's a good defensively (DRS 10, UZR 1.9, RAA 4) vs 2B where he's bad (DRS -3, UZR -1.6, RAA -1).  Otherwise  trading for a 3B makes sense (Diaz is 31 and about to enter his 2nd arby year so it's likely Tampa will be looking to deal).

I like Turang but I do not see a place for him with the Brewers outside of a utility role which while providing depth doesn't help to actually improve the team.

 

[wiguy94]

2 minutes ago, endaround said:

Can we stop with the square pegs in round holes? Turang's bat is passable at shortstop with a decent glove.  It isn't at 2B.  And that is ignoring that he hasn't played 2B.  The Brewers have a capable 2B if Wong goes in Urias (Urias has neither the glove nor the bat for 3B) and a decent 3B platoon if Peterson is re-signed.  The difference between Peterson last year and this year isn't his bat (wRC+ 98 vs wRC+ 101 is basically noise) but playing more 3B where he's a good defensively (DRS 10, UZR 1.9, RAA 4) vs 2B where he's bad (DRS -3, UZR -1.6, RAA -1).  Otherwise  trading for a 3B makes sense (Diaz is 31 and about to enter his 2nd arby year so it's likely Tampa will be looking to deal).

I like Turang but I do not see a place for him with the Brewers outside of a utility role which while providing depth doesn't help to actually improve the team.

 

Diaz is one of if not the worst defensive 3B in baseball. He should be viewed as a 1B/DH not a 3B.

[NBBrewFan]

Can we stop ignoring Mike Brosseau?

He's played about 40% of his Innings at 2B in his career with a DRS that is equivalent to 2019 Kolten Wong.  His history at 3B isn't as positive, but he's also not as bad as Urias at 3B.  You have an excellent platoon partner for Turang whether he is playing 3B or 2B with Brosseau and you are saving about $6m letting Wong go. They could use the $6M to keep Peterson and have a plan to both bring up/play Turang and having backup across the infield.  That means no 3B upgrade via trade, but more money for the Bullpen and maybe to sign a veteran 6th SP so Ashby can spend another year in the bullpen as a multi-inning/long relief.

Then have Yelich and Renfroe man the DH with Mitchell/Frelick in CF/RF or CF/LF depending on who is DH and maybe add a 1B platoon for Tellez who can also man DH depending on how Frelick/Mitchell are doing.

[monty57]

I like Brosseau and hope he's back, but only as a platoon / utility guy who mainly starts against LHP. We need guys on the roster who can hit lefties, and Brosseau has done that his whole career. He is a bad defender wherever you put him, and he has a career wRC+ of 86 vs RHP, so I really don't want him penciled in as an everyday guy.

I like the year Peterson has had, and his versatility is valuable. I have no faith that he will put up good numbers as an everyday player even for one more year, much less for the multi-year deal he's likely to sign. Let someone else make the mistake of thinking that he's suddenly "found it" at age 32 and can continue his success through a multi-year deal.

Urias has shown that he's not good defensively at SS or 3B, and should probably be moved to 2B. However, if someone put the proverbial gun to my head and asked which of the three would be the best everyday 3B for the next couple of years, I think Urias would outperform (total value) Brosseau or Peterson as an everyday 3B.

So, if we're not going to fix the problem by finding an actual third baseman, then we should just go with Urias and not try to convince ourselves that either a career journeyman who had a career year at age 32, or a guy who plays poor defense but can hit LHP well are good options as an everyday 3B for a team that hopes to win their division in 2023.

As to Turang, he has played 2B, but only has 44 games there through his minor league career. He's mainly a SS, but would likely be able to play 2B for a season until Adames is gone (probably after next season), at which time he'll probably move over to SS. If the Brewers do acquire a 3B, then Endaround has a valid point that Urias could be our everyday 2B, meaning that Wong's option could be declined and Turang could remain in AAA for a bit longer. He is still young, so that wouldn't hurt him.

A whole lot of the Brewers' problems could be helped out by simply finding a good third baseman.

[wiguy94]

9 minutes ago, monty57 said:

A whole lot of the Brewers' problems could be helped out by simply finding a good third baseman.

There just aren't many realistic options for upgrading 3B this offseason. The easiest 3B solution for the Brewers would be extending Adames then moving him to 3B. HIs defense likely plays better at 3B than SS because his range to his left is his defensive weakpoint. His bat is definitely good enough to be a 3B and he becomes a plus baserunner as a 3B. 

We can move Urias to 2B. Brosseau can platoon with Rowdy at 1B. Wong can either have his option declined, picked up and traded, or picked up and splitting his time between 2B and DH against RHP. We would likely need to sign a short term stop gap at SS (maybe Jose Iglesias on 1/2.5) to split time with Turang at SS and get the AB's against LHP at SS.

Against LHP the infield would be Adames, Iglesias, Urias, Brosseau. Against RHP the infield would be Adames, Turang/Iglesias, Wong/Urias, Tellez. 

This way we have 3B (a weak position in our farm system) locked up long term and it gives the Brewers a year to decide whether Turang is good enough to be an everyday SS.

[monty57]

48 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

There just aren't many realistic options for upgrading 3B this offseason. The easiest 3B solution for the Brewers would be extending Adames then moving him to 3B. HIs defense likely plays better at 3B than SS because his range to his left is his defensive weakpoint. His bat is definitely good enough to be a 3B and he becomes a plus baserunner as a 3B. 

We can move Urias to 2B. Brosseau can platoon with Rowdy at 1B. Wong can either have his option declined, picked up and traded, or picked up and splitting his time between 2B and DH against RHP. We would likely need to sign a short term stop gap at SS (maybe Jose Iglesias on 1/2.5) to split time with Turang at SS and get the AB's against LHP at SS.

Against LHP the infield would be Adames, Iglesias, Urias, Brosseau. Against RHP the infield would be Adames, Turang/Iglesias, Wong/Urias, Tellez. 

This way we have 3B (a weak position in our farm system) locked up long term and it gives the Brewers a year to decide whether Turang is good enough to be an everyday SS.

I've mentioned moving Adames to 3B, and think it could be a good idea. Turang is a natural SS, and Urias' best position is probably 2B (or, to topic we could exercise Wong's option). Your notion of extending Adames makes sense, and might allow for him to make the move to 3B. Would really just depend on how likely it is to extend him. He'd be a nice player to hold on to.

I also think that they could pick up a 3B through trade. A couple of guys who have been mentioned are Baty from the Mets and Jung from Texas. These are really good prospects, and if we're going to trade one of Burnes/Woodruff, they are guys who could be targeted. 

[wiguy94]

9 minutes ago, monty57 said:

I've mentioned moving Adames to 3B, and think it could be a good idea. Turang is a natural SS, and Urias' best position is probably 2B (or, to topic we could exercise Wong's option). Your notion of extending Adames makes sense, and might allow for him to make the move to 3B. Would really just depend on how likely it is to extend him. He'd be a nice player to hold on to.

I also think that they could pick up a 3B through trade. A couple of guys who have been mentioned are Baty from the Mets and Jung from Texas. These are really good prospects, and if we're going to trade one of Burnes/Woodruff, they are guys who could be targeted. 

I think we could extend Adames in the 7 year $100M - 120M range this offseason based on what guys like Story and Baez got this previous summer. I also think the only way we can move Adames to 3B is if we extend him because moving a SS to 3B two years before he's a FA is just something that usually doesn't go over well with the player.

 

Yeah Baty or Jung would be great options if we choose to go that route. I think going into this offseason our 4 biggest question marks are bullpen, catcher, third base, and first base. Getting a guy like Baty/Jung would give us a solution for half of a decade. 

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, wiguy94 said:

There just aren't many realistic options for upgrading 3B this offseason. The easiest 3B solution for the Brewers would be extending Adames then moving him to 3B. HIs defense likely plays better at 3B than SS because his range to his left is his defensive weakpoint. His bat is definitely good enough to be a 3B and he becomes a plus baserunner as a 3B. 

We can move Urias to 2B. Brosseau can platoon with Rowdy at 1B. Wong can either have his option declined, picked up and traded, or picked up and splitting his time between 2B and DH against RHP. We would likely need to sign a short term stop gap at SS (maybe Jose Iglesias on 1/2.5) to split time with Turang at SS and get the AB's against LHP at SS.

Against LHP the infield would be Adames, Iglesias, Urias, Brosseau. Against RHP the infield would be Adames, Turang/Iglesias, Wong/Urias, Tellez. 

This way we have 3B (a weak position in our farm system) locked up long term and it gives the Brewers a year to decide whether Turang is good enough to be an everyday SS.

So, Adames has become one of the elite defensive SS in the game and now you want to move him off the position? We finally have an elite SS. Let's just keep it that way. 

[NBBrewFan]

15 minutes ago, monty57 said:

I also think that they could pick up a 3B through trade. A couple of guys who have been mentioned are Baty from the Mets and Jung from Texas. These are really good prospects, and if we're going to trade one of Burnes/Woodruff, they are guys who could be targeted. 

I've been a proponent of Jung for months, but now that he's up with the Rangers and is striking out 50% of the time it's clear he's no better than Hiura.

If they trade for a prospect/Rookie for 3B like Baty or Jung it likely means you've dealt Woodruff or Burnes and that hit to the rotation and the growing pains of that new 3B will likely reduce the multiple apple bites approach for 2023.  At that point would it be better to clear out both Woodruff and Burnes and shoot for 2024/2025 as the start of the next multiple apple bites? Personally I don't see Attanasio going that route, I see it most likely they try again with most of the current roster (sans Wong and McCutcheon) and see if Stearns can wheel and deal some upgrades at the fringes (Bullpen, 1B platoon) with Frelick/Mitchell likely taking over 1 full-time OF spot and likely more playing time at another spot. I would prefer they do a larger roster overhaul, I just don't see it given the owners MO.

[NBBrewFan]

9 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

So, Adames has become one of the elite defensive SS in the game and now you want to move him off the position? We finally have an elite SS. Let's just keep it that way. 

That just doesn't take into the account of the bigger picture. If the defense is significantly better with Adames at 3B (provided he's 100% for it either through an extension or some other inducement), Turang at SS and Urias at 2B than having Turang/Brosseau or Peterson at 3B, Adames at SS and Urias at 2B or Urias at 3B, Adames at SS and Turang at 2B then you should do it.  It's the overall performance that matters more than whether 1 player is elite at SS, but the rest of the infield is still subpar.

[Outlander]

He was mentioned in trade talks but I do wonder what kind of contract Drury will be looking for at 3B. Urias is second year arbitration and not exactly cheap anymore, would explore trading him as well. May make sense to pick up Wong option and see what the best possible return is on Urias/Wong and keep the other. Then can go Wong/Brosseau or Urias/Turang depending on who they keep. Either way I don't want Urias at 3B anymore.

[MrTPlush]

Wait....I just looked up Turang's stats. Why are bending over backwards to figure out how to dump Wong for Turang at 2B? .765 OPS in AAA isn't anything to be ashamed of...but like, Wong has an OPS just as high hitting MLB pitching. 

[monty57]

6 minutes ago, NBBrewFan said:

I've been a proponent of Jung for months, but now that he's up with the Rangers and is striking out 50% of the time it's clear he's no better than Hiura.

If they trade for a prospect/Rookie for 3B like Baty or Jung it likely means you've dealt Woodruff or Burnes and that hit to the rotation and the growing pains of that new 3B will likely reduce the multiple apple bites approach for 2023.  At that point would it be better to clear out both Woodruff and Burnes and shoot for 2024/2025 as the start of the next multiple apple bites? Personally I don't see Attanasio going that route, I see it most likely they try again with most of the current roster (sans Wong and McCutcheon) and see if Stearns can wheel and deal some upgrades at the fringes (Bullpen, 1B platoon) with Frelick/Mitchell likely taking over 1 full-time OF spot and likely more playing time at another spot. I would prefer they do a larger roster overhaul, I just don't see it given the owners MO.

It's all speculation now, but it will be interesting to see how the Brewers navigate the next few years. We will either trade some guys and add a few rookies to the roster over the next few years, or we will lose a bunch of guys to free agency and go into rebuild without the extra firepower of the guys we would have received if we had traded some people (does that make sense?).

I think that we are going to have to trust some rookies each year. Turang, Frelick and Mitchell will probably play significant roles in 2023. If we do trade one of Burnes/Woodruff, we will probably target guys who are either in AAA or have limited MLB experience. 

I guess when it comes down to it, I would rather trust some talented rookies instead of trusting less-talented veterans. There is risk to everyone, and we're at the point where we're going to start some rookies.

It's a fun "experiment" to think about the prospects we could bring in if we were to clean house and trade away all the pending FAs, but I highly doubt that's what's going to happen. We're going to have to trust some prospects, but we're still going to try to remain competitive.