Hunter Renfroe to Angels for 3 pitchers

[AdvantageSchneider]

3 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

So many of the posts here are focused on downplaying Renfroe which is telling. Have yet to see anyone offer up a hidden nugget uncovering what the Brewers might see in one or more of the pitchers they got in return. That's probably because none of them even have extreme youth on their side. Usually a prospect is either putting up eye popping minor league numbers or is young for the level they were playing at. That's not the case with any of these guys.

It's easy to see why the Brewers were looking to move Renfroe rather than pay what he'll get this year but they didn't have to trade him for Junk.

We are talking about Hunter Renfroe here not Mike Trout.  We traded for him just a year ago giving up JBJ and two mid tier prospects.  It seems reasonable to state that trading JBJ was a salary dump so one of those prospects was the payment for Boston taking on JBJ's contact.   Which means last year when we got Renfroe he was worth one mid-tier prospect.  That was when he only cost $7.5M and had 2 years of control left.  This year when we traded away Renfroe we got one mid-tier prospect and two other arms.  Sure seems to me that is the value of Renfroe and the Brewers did well to get what they did for him.

[MVP2110]

This is a good trade, Renfroe was really good for us and I enjoyed him here, but dealing away 1 year of a 31 year old OF coming off a career season for 3 young controllable pitchers is the exact type of move the Brewers should be making. You are selling high on an asset, while simultaneously opening up ABs for your young OFs like Frelick, Ruiz, Mitchell, Wiemer, and eventually Chourio, not too mention adding 3 pitchers who have a shot to help the club this year either in the pen or as rotation depth(something we really lacked last season). 

We also don't need to act like the offseason is over on Nov 23. If the Brewers go into next season with a payroll down 20-30 million from last year then I'll agree with some of the negative takes. But let's see the offseason play out first

[UpandIn]

1 hour ago, torts said:

we basically salvaged the Jackie Bradley signing by getting a year of 20 hrs and 3 arms.  That in itself is a win.  

That was a win with or without the trade. Getting 29 HRs, 124 wRC+ from our RFer for JBJ was the win.

Getting what looks like two soft tossers and then the lowest rated prospect being the one with the best stuff doesn't make it more of a win. 

 

Again, if this would have been Wong, that would have made sense. You're trading a LHed hitter on a team that desperately needs hitters who can hit lefties and you'd be replacing him with a lefty. What we're doing is trading a RHed hitter and likely replacing him with rookies who are LHed hitters.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

BUT...we'll see what they do. There are a dozen more moves coming. I just wish at least if we were going to get a bunch of AAA/AAAA arms(thus far in their careers) the "higher rated" arms would have been more power arms.

I also think the "5 teams in 5 years so maybe something is going on there," is an argument made in bad faith. We watched him all year last year. He went out, played hard, hit the ball well. Never heard a word about it. He was in SD for several years, traded as part of a deal that sent Jake Cronenworth and Tommy Pham back to SD from Tampa Bay.

He has the ONE bad year of his career in TB, hits .156 and Boston signs him(3rd team). 
We come in, make a trade that EVERY Brewers fans is praising Stearns for as being a genius...getting out from JBJ for a power hitting RFer. Then when we go ahead and trade him after absolutely no signs that he was anything but a good teammate, professional and a good hitter and start inferring there must be some character flaw for him to have played on so many teams?

 

C'mon...that's a lazy point. 

[brewcrewdue80]

1 hour ago, BlightyBrew said:

6th most wins since 2018...So, do you get a trophy for that?  We didn't win anything.   Love how you take a small sample size of 4 years as some measure stick of success.  But its the Brewers we don't have much success. We haven't won anything in 53 years other than 1 pennant.

Franchise record payroll....   I'm so impressed but it is still below average for the league.  Maybe a conversation should begin on whether or not Milwaukee is a viable market for MLB?  I'm mean they had 2 tries and this is the 3rd.  Maybe it just doesn't work and Milwaukee is a AAA market no shame in that.

Financial standing withing the MLB hierarchy... Thats a valid point so maybe but until they open their books, or any major league team opens their all this talk of what they can't or cannot spend is pure speculation.  Mark A said at the trade deadline that they could of went after any player including Soto. I guess he was lying then. Nobody knows what they can spend or not other than those in the room.  

This trade made a not very deep lineup worse.  The players they received back don't move the needle at all.  Depth at most.  

 

Way to take the recent success as a small sample and comp it to the franchise success overall.  Then take an early date offseason move "Nov 22nd" as if the offseason was over and lament how the Front Office does business. 

Zero brain power up there huh?  Tomorrow  must be Opening Day. There's clearly no other moves coming.

Just crap on the team attitude pretending you're a fan.  Attendance throughout much of Miller Park's shows that Milwaukee is a viable ML town.  The market is small and will never bring fans who think it's good business to run it like a big market. Suggest the team relocate? That will just be a smaller market. Look how the expansion teams have done monetary. Miami, Tampa, Arizona,  and Colorado.  None of them are top 10 or 15 in payrolls. Milwaukee is better for Baseball than removing them from the ML circuit.

 

Big picture brain power.  Team has multiple top 100 Outfield prospects Chourio, Frelick, Wiemer, and Mitchell graduated off. All AA and higher level.  They can't play if a guy like Renfroe is blocking them.  You keep blocking them that "can't  expect and rely on rookies to produce right from get go"? Well, you can't remove the label rookies if you just wait for 2024 to play them. Then it's another offseason complaining the team won't fix its offense problems playing these rookies.  I remember  when a group like Braun, Fielder, Weeks, and Hart splashed on the scene and made us pine for better pitching to compliment them.  We have SPs. We have 4 top 100 OFs to plug in to the lineup by the time September  rolls around.  What we don't have is a bullpen solidified. 

This trade doesn't answer the bullpen future, but gives options the team needed.

Renfroe being the team's best hitter in 2022 is a small sample. Adames, Wong, Tellez, even Yelich isn't far off. But just look at that 28gm sample of Garrett Mitchell coming in above them all in terms of OPS+.   Nov 23rd.  Come back April 23rd and nothing else was done to lament the trade.

[UpandIn]

17 minutes ago, AdvantageSchneider said:

Yes but Boston is a better hitters park which is why his OPS+ was only 114 last year compared to 126 this year.  Going by OPS plus which is a better metric than any of the stats you quoted his second best year was 2018 in San DIego.

He was hurt this year too.  For a small market franchise it's better to let go a guy one year too early than one year too late.

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense when you're talking about a player under team control. Not an everyday position player with one year left on his contract who's a bridge to your RHed.

And I understand what you're saying with your "better to let a player go one year early than one year late." And it's kinda nonsense. It just justifies pretty much every trade and again, it's really applicable when you're contemplating extending a player.

There's virtually no reason to expect Renfroe...who's been REMARKABLY consistent during his career save for the 2020 Covid year...to no longer be able to perform at 31. 

 

But by this logic, it would seem like this would be the time to trade Wong(no-brainer...he's far less likely to produce the same offensive numbers next year than Renfroe). 
Woodruff-Gotta trade him. That's a case where the risk/reward skews HEAVILY toward trading him now. He's going to be on the wrong side of 30 and almost certainly had his career year two years ago and was injured last year.
Peralta...shoulder fatigue? Better trade him now while you can still get prospects in return than wait another year and maybe he has more serious issues and you can't get back significant value for him. 

You can go and do this for nearly every player who's no longer pre-arb and justify a trade. 

[MVP2110]

It's also worth pointing out the Brewers were 3rd in MLB in Home Runs last season, for fans who want a more "balanced offense" with guys getting on base, stealing bases, etc. replacing Renfroe with the young OFs likely moves us in that direction 

[monty57]

Thanks @Eye Black for the scouting reports. Junk will likely be the swing man this year, slotting into the rotation in the coming years as we lose guys to trade/free agency (unless someone is traded this offseason). The other two add cheap bullpen depth, of which we are in need. We are still in line to lose most of our rotation after the 2024 season, with Peralta leaving the following year, so adding someone like Junk, even if he's only a middle-to-back-of-the-rotation starter, should add a lot of value over the coming years (for those who care about the team beyond the coming season).

As to this year, according to Cot's, we're now looking at a payroll somewhere around $102M for 2023. Even a budget hawk like me thinks that we should have room to add some salary to the payroll for the season. 

I had thought they might hold onto Renfroe and use him and Yelich as corner-OF/DH guys. Now it looks like Yelich, Mitchell, Frelick, Taylor should get most of the OF reps, so I'd guess the extra payroll will go to acquiring a corner-IF/DH guy. Having some cheap bullpen arms helps here as well, since we won't have to piece together a bullpen through FAs. They may not cost a ton, but a couple million here and a couple million there really eats into payroll. In that regard, guys like we picked up will really help out.

The offseason is still young, and we're getting a clearer picture of what we have. Most of the roster is set, and we could have $10-20M to fill in the holes. 

[UpandIn]

5 minutes ago, brewcrewdue80 said:

Big picture brain power.  Team has multiple top 100 Outfield prospects Chourio, Frelick, Wiemer, and Mitchell graduated off. All AA and higher level.  They can't play if a guy like Renfroe is blocking them.  You keep blocking them that "can't  expect and rely on rookies to produce right from get go"? Well, you can't remove the label rookies if you just wait for 2024 to play them. Then it's another offseason complaining the team won't fix its offense problems playing these rookies.  I remember  when a group like Braun, Fielder, Weeks, and Hart splashed on the scene and made us pine for better pitching to compliment them.  We have SPs. We have 4 top 100 OFs to plug in to the lineup by the time September  rolls around.  What we don't have is a bullpen solidified. 

This trade doesn't answer the bullpen future, but gives options the team needed.

Renfroe being the team's best hitter in 2022 is a small sample. Adames, Wong, Tellez, even Yelich isn't far off. But just look at that 28gm sample of Garrett Mitchell coming in above them all in terms of OPS+. 

Mitchell didn't graduate off, he fell off. He wasn't a top 100 prospect when we called him up. 

But...setting that aside, we do have a very deep group of OF prospects. And among them, you can reasonably count on ONE of them to produce at the ML level in 2023...which is likely the last year with Burnes and Woodruff and that's Frelick, the left handed LFer who is a perfect fit for this team...that hit for power and needed a high BA/OBP contact hitter atop the lineup to hit in front of the power hitters we have/had. Expecting Wiemer to step in and produce early as a RFer is asking a lot from a guy who struggled at AA and then hit very well at AAA in ~40 games.

The last paragraph REALLY makes very little sense. Mitchell's OPS was under .700 and jumped up about .140 points based on 5 games. You're calling Renfroe's year last year being our best hitter a small sample size, THAT is a small sample size you're using for Mitchell. 

And again, it's not just about who's BETTER between Mitchell, Frelick, Yelich...it's the fact that we struggled so badly vs Left Handed pitching...an area in which Renfroe thrived.  

[igor67]

It's very much the opposite of naive (going back a few pages). Because of the defensive profiles even if 1 or 2 of the OFers struggle at the plate they only detract from the team value so much and Taylor is basically your built in replacement level guy to take up some of those ABs, and you still have 4 guys to try for 3 full time spots. So I'm assuming at least 1 struggle significantly and we are still almost certainly come out way ahead. If 2 of the 4 struggle mightily then we are seeing more Yelich in LF and someone else is picking up more DH ABs. And because of the way value works if we get some replacement level performances from the rookies we only need 1 out of the 4 to have a big year and come out way ahead. As others have pointed out Renfroe is post 30 and with an older player skill set, so there is no guarantee he doesn't drop off a fair bit either. What I have no confidence in picking is which one of those 4 prospects is going to have a big year. I just like the odds of 1 of them being awesome if given the chance and giving them more opportunities increase our odds of playing the right one.

[DR28]

Hopefully we add Haniger or Conforto to replace Renfore.

Mitch would be a great fit in RF... Should have never traded him.

[monty57]

7 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

You can go and do this for nearly every player who's no longer pre-arb and justify a trade. 

Yes you can, and you probably should. Very few quality Brewer players should be held onto until free agency. It sucks, but it's a reality of small-market baseball.

The question really becomes "when is the best time to trade them?" rather than "should they be traded?" 

I figured they may hold onto Renfroe mainly because I figured one year's worth of production may be worth more than the value of what we might get in return. We'll see, but if Junk can be a #3-5 starter for a few seasons, we'll get more value from that (plus what he'd be traded for down the road) than we'll get from one year of Renfroe.

Honestly, what we got is more than I thought we would. Now we just have to see if the money that has been freed up is used to pick up a bat for either 3B, 1B, or DH.

[BlightyBrew]

20 minutes ago, brewcrewdue80 said:

Way to take the recent success as a small sample and comp it to the franchise success overall.  Then take an early date offseason move "Nov 22nd" as if the offseason was over and lament how the Front Office does business. 

Zero brain power up there huh?  Tomorrow  must be Opening Day. There's clearly no other moves coming.

Just crap on the team attitude pretending you're a fan.  Attendance throughout much of Miller Park's shows that Milwaukee is a viable ML town.  The market is small and will never bring fans who think it's good business to run it like a big market. Suggest the team relocate? That will just be a smaller market. Look how the expansion teams have done monetary. Miami, Tampa, Arizona,  and Colorado.  None of them are top 10 or 15 in payrolls. Milwaukee is better for Baseball than removing them from the ML circuit.

 

Big picture brain power.  Team has multiple top 100 Outfield prospects Chourio, Frelick, Wiemer, and Mitchell graduated off. All AA and higher level.  They can't play if a guy like Renfroe is blocking them.  You keep blocking them that "can't  expect and rely on rookies to produce right from get go"? Well, you can't remove the label rookies if you just wait for 2024 to play them. Then it's another offseason complaining the team won't fix its offense problems playing these rookies.  I remember  when a group like Braun, Fielder, Weeks, and Hart splashed on the scene and made us pine for better pitching to compliment them.  We have SPs. We have 4 top 100 OFs to plug in to the lineup by the time September  rolls around.  What we don't have is a bullpen solidified. 

This trade doesn't answer the bullpen future, but gives options the team needed.

Renfroe being the team's best hitter in 2022 is a small sample. Adames, Wong, Tellez, even Yelich isn't far off. But just look at that 28gm sample of Garrett Mitchell coming in above them all in terms of OPS+.   Nov 23rd.  Come back April 23rd and nothing else was done to lament the trade.

I been a fan since 78 so pipe down.  I will tell you Arizona and Miami have won at least one WS and Tampa has been to more than the crew.  So your right they must be doing something right that the crew cant figure out.  Seems the Brewers can't get over the hump but hey just keep drinking the cool aid and be a sheep.  

The Brewers have had a whole list of multiple prospects over the years and they have amounted to jack.  Might happen this time as well.

I did say in a early post that there might be other moves but right now this trade made a pretty thin offense worse.

[JosephC]

I don't see anything in this return to get excited about.

Junk, nearly 27 years old, 24 2/3 MLB innings, 4.74 ERA, 5.22 FIP, 1.42 WHIP, 7.7 K/9, 4.2 K/BB (OK, the K/BB is good), AAA numbers = 76 innings, 4.86 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 8.4 K/9, 3.9 K/BB

Peguero, 25 years old, 19 2/3 MLB innings, 9.15 ERA, 5.92 FIP, 1.93 WHIP, 6.2 K/9, 2.4 K/BB, AAA numbers = 52 1/3 innings, 3.44 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 9.8 K/9, 3.8 K/BB

Seminaris, 24 years old, AAA numbers = 34 1/3 innings, 5.24 ERA, 1.72 WHIP, 7.1 K/9, 1.7 K/BB, AA numbers = 30 2/3 innings, 4.70 ERA, 1.66 WHIP, 7.9 K/9, 1.9 K/BB

MLB data on Junk obviously is limited, but it's interesting that in 2021 he threw a slider 21.3% of the time and a curveball 21.9% of the time, but in 2022 the slider went up to 45.3% of the time and the curveball dropped to 8.2% of the time.  Could be the Angels were already looking to transition him to full-time relief.  His fastball averages 92.7 MPH, and so far in the majors, only his slider has been a positive pitch for him (throws fastball, slider, curveball and occasional change-up).

Peguero is fastball/slider.  Fastball is at 96.4 MPH but MLB hitters have had no problem with it as it has been a pretty significant negative by Pitch Value numbers.  The slider also is in negative territory.

The 2021 Baseball America Prospect Handbook noted that Seminaris has somewhat of a cross-fire delivery, so I'm thinking a funky delivery which the Brewers just seem to love.  But after viewing video on YouTube, I didn't see anything that looked overly deceptive to me.  Sets on the first base side of the rubber and does not have an exaggerated stride towards first...I didn't see anything that would indicate he could be a "death on lefties" type pitcher.  If anything, there is a pretty decent fading change that makes it look like he might actually be better against righties (based on one video that lasts only a few minutes, so not much information).

Just not a lot to get excited about.  Also not thrilled that two of these guys are on the 40-man roster immediately and neither of them seem like sure-fire bets for the 2023 26-man roster.  I also believe Seminaris is Rule V eligible after this season, but that probably isn't that big of a deal because his performance in 2023 very likely determines if the Brewers and the rest of MLB views him as a future big-leaguer or not.

[AdvantageSchneider]

31 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense when you're talking about a player under team control. Not an everyday position player with one year left on his contract who's a bridge to your RHed.

And I understand what you're saying with your "better to let a player go one year early than one year late." And it's kinda nonsense. It just justifies pretty much every trade and again, it's really applicable when you're contemplating extending a player.

There's virtually no reason to expect Renfroe...who's been REMARKABLY consistent during his career save for the 2020 Covid year...to no longer be able to perform at 31. 

 

But by this logic, it would seem like this would be the time to trade Wong(no-brainer...he's far less likely to produce the same offensive numbers next year than Renfroe). 
Woodruff-Gotta trade him. That's a case where the risk/reward skews HEAVILY toward trading him now. He's going to be on the wrong side of 30 and almost certainly had his career year two years ago and was injured last year.
Peralta...shoulder fatigue? Better trade him now while you can still get prospects in return than wait another year and maybe he has more serious issues and you can't get back significant value for him. 

You can go and do this for nearly every player who's no longer pre-arb and justify a trade. 

You seem very worked up over the Hunter Renfroe trade.  Much more than you should be.  I suggest you get some fresh air go for a walk maybe and calm down.

I'll address each of your points.  

FIrst on Wong.  There was a lot of discussion on whether to pick up the option on Wong.  I was surprised they did.  You can certainly make the argument they shouldn't have.  I can't speak to why they did but perhaps they don't feel as good about Turang as they do the plethora of OF prospects they have to replace Renfroe.

As far as Woody goes, he's just turning 30 and is an all star caliber pitcher.  I missed it but what year was Renfroe an all star?  Best I can the only award Renfroe was ever given was NL player of the week back in 2016.  So Woody is just that much better than Renfroe.  That being said there certainly is a chance they could trade Woody too.

As far as peralta goes he's 26 years old and on a team friendly contact.  No reason to trade him even if he is coming off an injury.  I would think a brewers fan would know these things and not need to be told these facts.

[UpandIn]

2 minutes ago, monty57 said:

Yes you can, and you probably should. Very few quality Brewer players should be held onto until free agency. It sucks, but it's a reality of small-market baseball.

The question really becomes "when is the best time to trade them?" rather than "should they be traded?" 

I figured they may hold onto Renfroe mainly because I figured one year's worth of production may be worth more than the value of what we might get in return. We'll see, but if Junk can be a #3-5 starter for a few seasons, we'll get more value from that (plus what he'd be traded for down the road) than we'll get from one year of Renfroe.

Honestly, what we got is more than I thought we would. Now we just have to see if the money that has been freed up is used to pick up a bat for either 3B, 1B, or DH.

Well, I don't agree. I do think it's either "when" vs "should they." It's WHEN if you're talking about a player who's going to bring back multiple elite prospects. It's "should they" if it's a key player who's going to bring back...almost nothing of substance. 

Ok...but if you're going to do that and trade those players under the "better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late," then you should probably get some value back for that player. And it's really not applicable for players who don't have a lot of trade value, but they DO fit your team very-very well. We were already a team that couldn't hit lefties and we just took away our best RHed hitter. Now maybe he won't be the best next year. Could be Adames...I suppose...Urias could be(don't really see another option). But he's very likely to be a ~.800 OPS type hitter who crushes lefties and he was the perfect bridge to Wiemer, pretty much the definition of a rookie who is going to need 300-500 PAs before he makes the necessary adjustments(if he ever does, though I'm confident). 

Meanwhile, you're trading this player in a year in which your owner JUST talked about building around your core and trying to be aggressive and to win next year. 

 

And I hope the Brewers scouting picked up some players who have high ceilings. But I'm already skeptical of some of the selective scouting reports(such as the one that has Junk's FB between 93-97, yet his av FB velo is 92.5 in the limited innings he's thrown in the big leagues). 

There was no moving off Renfroe a year "too late" in this scenario. You had him for one more year. The last year with Wood/Burnes/Lauer and Adames-most likely. 

What would have been "too late?" You CAN let players get to free agency from time to time. 

 

I really don't see how the 26th ranked prospect in maybe the worst system in baseball as the headliner is "more" than you though we'd get for Renfroe. 

And I'll definitely have a different opinion if they can go out and get a corner IFer/DH in Free Agency. 

Problem is, the best 3B FA is Jace Peterson. 
The top FA DH's available are Nelson Cruz and...JD Martinez. 
1B-You need Abreu if you're going to put out a lineup that is better vs left handed pitching next year sans any significant trades. 
 

Maybe Brantley could be that RHed bat? They're all more expensive, older and more injury prone. 

 

So of course I'll wait, but this trade...right now makes absolutely no sense to me when looking at our roster construction and how we're going to get better in what's likely the final year we're going to have our two aces. It DOES appear to be a cost saving move at a time when we're getting a significant bump in revenue sharing due to the TV money going up. 

Maybe Wilson Contreras wants the chance to catch in Milwaukee. That would certainly make this trade look good. 
Maybe it's Abreu. 

But RIGHT NOW...our lineup got worse and we just made a weakness from last year...an even bigger weakness and I'm not sure how we're going to be able to hit lefties. 
And the return certainly does not seem worth it.

 

Meanwhile, Angels fans are thrilled. They gave away 3 pitching prospects who didn't really factor into their team(a team that's not exactly flush with pitching) for a GOOD and relatively cheap RFer. 

 

[monty57]

One other thing that may have helped make the Brewers' decision is that I really think they disliked the poor defense they saw last year. Renfroe isn't atrocious defensively, but he's the type of guy that can cost you games... he has a cannon for an arm, but is sometimes horribly off the mark allowing baserunners to take extra bases or score runs when he should have just held the ball, and he sometimes took really bad routes to balls. The kind that turn outs into triples.

Other than Yelich, any of the OFs on the roster should be significant improvements defensively in every category other than arm strength. We're stuck with Yelich, but should get a defensive upgrade by moving on from Renfroe.

[Thurston Fluff]

Overall I think fans have to get used to the idea that the Brewers essentially have players for five years not six. Then they will be traded for far more value than one year of said player will provide. If they make good deals and develop players well they'll win more games than any other possible way they could operate. The alternative is to do what the Marlins did and the Padres seem to be doing now. Suck for years on end then trade all their young players, farm talent and spend wildly on free agents to go for it in a short window. What is not an option is to spend our way to winning. We just have to accept that. I do. In fact I like it this way. Winning one title this way is a no strings attached win. There is no "you should win given all the money you spent." The big spenders will never win as David only Goliath. Winning one as a Yankee or Dodger fan is  fun and all but they know they should win it given the advantages they have. They know deep down they're the kids cheering on the bully who just beat up the kid half his size who walks with a limp.

This trade make sense in that regard. I don't know what to think of the return. I like that they're all at high enough a level that they can help sooner than later if they can help at all. It sure does help our pitching depth if it doesn't provide immediate help opening day.

 

[UpandIn]

Quote

You seem very worked up over the Hunter Renfroe trade.  Much more than you should be.  I suggest you get some fresh air go for a walk maybe and calm down.

?
Yes...because I don't like trading away our best hitter...and not only that, one of the few hitters we have who could hit lefties...an area we were VERY bad at least year to save 11M dollars to be spent on upgrades at 3B/1B/DH...which will almost certainly not come to pass just based on the players available at those positions NOT being upgrades or the one or two who are being in their mid to late 30s and very much not fitting your "wrong side of 30" rationale for this trade...then I must go outside.

You seem equally upset because I just...simply don't agree with you and have responded with a very condesending explanation of why you're subjective rationale is so much more reasonable. Perhaps...you may need to go outside? I don't know...I personally just spent 4 days outside and it was cold and miserable. I'm nice, warm and happy right now, I'm just talking about a move the Brewers made that I don't like. Could it be you're projecting a bit because I'm not blindly agreeing with you? 

Quote

I'll address each of your points.  

Very kind of you. 

Quote

FIrst on Wong.  There was a lot of discussion on whether to pick up the option on Wong.  I was surprised they did.  You can certainly make the argument they shouldn't have.  I can't speak to why they did but perhaps they don't feel as good about Turang as they do the plethora of OF prospects they have to replace Renfroe.

But I thought it was better to get rid of a player one year too early rather than one year too late?
The guy who raised his OPS by about 20 points due to a 3HR game late in the year and who's defense saw a MAJOR drop off...I guess he doesn't apply to this line of thought because it's not the company line?
But you are right. You are just guessing. Which means you're stating an opinion. Something apparently when I do...it's not alright and I'm took worked up? LOL...alright. 

Quote

As far as Woody goes, he's just turning 30 and is an all star caliber pitcher.  I missed it but what year was Renfroe an all star?  Best I can the only award Renfroe was ever given was NL player of the week back in 2016.  So Woody is just that much better than Renfroe.  That being said there certainly is a chance they could trade Woody too.

Yes...but he'll be on the "wrong side" of 30, remember? And he had HIS career year two years ago, he's coming off a season in which he was injured. Are these not all the arguments you made for trading Renfroe?

The DIFFERENCE being, if you keep Woodruff a year too late, it can set back your entire organization. If you keep Renfroe a year too long... you have a power hitting RFer for an extra year and he MIGHT not hit quite as well as he did last year(which would be pretty much every other year of his career). 

Quote

As far as peralta goes he's 26 years old and on a team friendly contact.  No reason to trade him even if he is coming off an injury.  I would think a brewers fan would know these things and not need to be told these facts.

And what of those "facts" do you believe I was unaware of?

He dealt with shoulder injuries last year. Those are BAD for pitchers. So it only stands to reason you trade him now. Better trade him a year too soon than a year too late, right? 

If that is absolute, across the board logic(as another poster confirmed) then why would that not be applicable with a young pitcher who's thrown over 100 innings ONCE in his career and in back to back years has missed time at the end of the season due to injuries?

Surely it'd be better to trade him a year too early rather than a year too late? I mean, it's ALWAYS better, no? 

Burnes by that logic should be traded. If you trade him next year and he's not as good as this year, that'll be 3 straight years he's regressed and he'll only have one year of service time available and you'll get less in return for him. 

 

But I take it from your objections with Woodruff and then Peralta, it's NOT always better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late? Only when...the Brewers do it? 

Unless that's just an inane and ridiculous oversimplification and there should be a GREAT deal more that goes into it than that. Then...well then I suppose you may have a point. But that's not the argument originally made. 

I'm also hearing about how we can take this money we're saving and put it to use for a 3B, 1B/DH.

Who are the viable 3B Free Agents that you'd argue would be upgrades? 1B/DH? Again, seems like it's pretty much Abreu. 

[umphrey]

I wish they dig deeper into the minors for lottery tickets. These pitchers aren’t going to do anything in the majors. 

[UpandIn]

8 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

Overall I think fans have to get used to the idea that the Brewers essentially have players for five years not six. Then they will be traded for far more value than one year of said player will provide. If they make good deals and develop players well they'll win more games than any other possible way they could operate. The alternative is to do what the Marlins did and the Padres seem to be doing now. Suck for years on end then trade all their young players, farm talent and spend wildly on free agents to go for it in a short window. What is not an option is to spend our way to winning. We just have to accept that. I do. In fact I like it this way. Winning one title this way is a no strings attached win. There is no "you should win given all the money you spent." The big spenders will never win as David only Goliath. Winning one as a Yankee or Dodger fan is  fun and all but they know they should win it given the advantages they have. They know deep down they're the kids cheering on the bully who just beat up the kid half his size who walks with a limp.

This trade make sense in that regard. I don't know what to think of the return. I like that they're all at high enough a level that they can help sooner than later if they can help at all. It sure does help our pitching depth if it doesn't provide immediate help opening day.

 

Surely we're smart enough to make the distinction between the Corbin Burnes, Brandon Woodruff, Josh Hader, Willy Adames types...and the type of players who play a key role, but wouldn't be considered for a qualifying offer, no?

Keeping Hunter Renfroe for another year was not going to send us down the same road as the Marlins(who don't actually do this) or the Padres.

Again, these are three pitchers, the BEST of which was the 26th ranked prospect in the Angels organization. 

That's not changing the direction of any organization. 

[UpandIn]

2 minutes ago, umphrey said:

I wish they dig deeper into the minors for lottery tickets. These pitchers aren’t going to do anything in the majors. 

Well, that'd be something. At least get a projectable 19 year old kid pitching in the DSL who has a bit more upside.

ONE of these pitchers if you squint and try real hard, looks like maybe...if everything goes right, the Brewers could POSSIBLY get something out of him. 

I think it's just as likely all three will come and go having made little impact. 

[MVP2110]

4 minutes ago, umphrey said:

I wish they dig deeper into the minors for lottery tickets. These pitchers aren’t going to do anything in the majors. 

Ah yes, the Brewers under the current regime have been terrible at identifying & developing pitchers

[wntrtxn21]

My two cents:  The Angels have almost no pitching depth and are desperately looking for pitching.  They were willing to dump every one of these guys for one year of an outfieldeer who is now with his 5th team in 5 years and going to make around $11M. Make no mistake about it, no matter what Arnold says, this was a straight up salary dump. 

[MVP2110]

 

 

 

[Brewcrew82]

8 hours ago, Robocaller said:

so you think the cure for inconsistency is playing a bunch of rookies? If they're consistent, they will be consistently bad.

Of course, they'll experience at least some struggles. That's just the reality of major league baseball. 

However, the style of baseball they play is far more conducive to consistent offense than what we've seen over the last few years. Rather than being focused on hitting home runs to score, these guys have demonstrated a proven ability to get on base at a high level throughout their minor league careers, and once on base, possess the game-changing speed to take extra bases and manufacture increased runs. 

I don't get why you assume they'll be consistently bad. Sal Frelick, for example, possesses a virtually identical skillset to Steven Kwan, who hit .298 and accumulated over 5.0 WAR setting the table for Cleveland's division winning lineup this season.