Packers 2023 Discussion Thread

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

Oddly, defense seems to be the least of their probs (not that it isn't a problem).  The offense just had a bye week and a mini-bye week and still can't seem to fix a single problem they have.  MLF is sounding like a broken record. 

Agreed, and once again injuries seem to be among the biggest problems for this team, which sucks for a young roster that desparately needs to play together in game situations to have a prayer to develop - I get that injuries happen in the NFL, but it's an incredible rarity for the Packers to be one of the teams who avoid the injury bug over the course of a season.

Stokes basically ran into another hamstring issue the first time he stepped back onto the field in a game.  Jones is a shell of himself with a bum hammy.  We have an undersized cornerback getting paid a ton of money with a bad back.  half the defense has knee or or ankle issues.  Every time a ball is thrown towards Watson, you have to see if he winds up heading to an injury tent afterwards.  It's insane.

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

Love went 10-for-13 in the first half, and only had a missed FG to show for it.

That's because just about everything was either a swing pass, bubble screen, or instant checkdown - I can't recall a single throw that went more than 5 yards downfield in the 1st half.  When you have a roster full of receivers whose primary value this early in their careers is to get downfield, that type of gameplan basically eliminates them from being a worry for the defense - the Broncos' defense is T.E.R.R.I.B.L.E., and they were able to sit on all the underneath stuff and pitch a 1st half shutout because the game plan was putrid.

Besides late game panic/catchup mode, this offense hasn't looked diverse and unpredictable since the 3rd quarter of the Falcons game, when they went into a shell mode to allow ATL to come back and win in Week 2.  They didn't have Jones or Bakhtiari that game either - and they were still moving the ball up and down the field on the road for most of that game against what appears to be a pretty decent defense.  They now look nothing like that team another month into the season.  There should be alot of heat on MLF and company, even with a young roster - it's painfully obvious receivers are running the wrong routes/not on the same page as Love, and that falls in the lap of the coaching staff to correct it.  Wicks has to be on the field much more often, because he seems to at least have a clue on where he needs to be when he's running routes.

[MrTPlush]

It feels and looks like the Packers have little faith in Love to do anything. At the end of the game they didn't want to run it and didn't want Love to pass it, so they had a designed play for Love to just run it. Of course Jenkins then proceeded to get them flagged for 10 yards. on said play. Sure seemed like they were just going to set up the shortest 50+ yard field goal possible.

[adambr2]

I think we need to be open to the possibility that Matt Lafleur is a poor, bottom of the NFL head coach. 

It was easy to hide his shortcomings and look good when Aaron Rodgers was basically running the offense for him based on experience. Now that he's not, MLF is getting pretty exposed. He doesn't make good coaching hires. He doesn't gameplan well. 

I get what the Packers were trying to do. They wanted to see if this was a Sean McVay hire. It was not. 

Lafleur, frankly, looks like a boy amongst men on Sundays. 

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Some pretty strong and definitive conclusions being drawn about a young and inexperienced team that is performing exactly like most young and inexperienced teams tend to perform. Especially regarding this offense. Do yourself a favor and look up the 2021 Detroit Lions and see how that young team fared with veteran QB Jared Goff at the helm.

[CheezWizHed]

8 hours ago, adambr2 said:

I think we need to be open to the possibility that Matt Lafleur is a poor, bottom of the NFL head coach. 

It was easy to hide his shortcomings and look good when Aaron Rodgers was basically running the offense for him based on experience. Now that he's not, MLF is getting pretty exposed. He doesn't make good coaching hires. He doesn't gameplan well. 

I get what the Packers were trying to do. They wanted to see if this was a Sean McVay hire. It was not. 

Lafleur, frankly, looks like a boy amongst men on Sundays. 

 

3 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

Some pretty strong and definitive conclusions being drawn about a young and inexperienced team that is performing exactly like most young and inexperienced teams tend to perform. Especially regarding this offense. Do yourself a favor and look up the 2021 Detroit Lions and see how that young team fared with veteran QB Jared Goff at the helm.

I'm actually "ok" with MLF and our current offense given the expected inconsistency due to our youth.  MLF has strengths on half-time adjustments (well it seems that way, maybe that anonymous player disagrees). What concerns me is that MLF has some big blind spots...

• hiring Joe Berry was bad.  Keeping him has been worse.  Talking about doing the same thing and expecting different results (mainly referring to his team and not seeing himself doing it) is just embarrassing. Beyond just picking Berry... it concerns me that he just picks his buddies instead of building a coaching staff that will advance and challenge the team.
• Having a bye week and mini-bye week to fix issues, but really rolling out the same offense with the same problems is a head scratcher.  (Caveat: Love did start the game against the Broncos by many shorter passes, but reverted back pretty quickly when that didn't work either). 

I'm still waiting to see what happens through the rest of the year (for both MLF and Love), but I'm considering if wholesale changes are necessary.   If we continue trudging through the season making the same mistakes with the same problems... why would we trust him to build the team going into the future? If Love ends up going, might as well reboot the coaching staff too. Start fresh. 

[adambr2]

4 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

Some pretty strong and definitive conclusions being drawn about a young and inexperienced team that is performing exactly like most young and inexperienced teams tend to perform. Especially regarding this offense. Do yourself a favor and look up the 2021 Detroit Lions and see how that young team fared with veteran QB Jared Goff at the helm.

"Young and inexperienced" can't excuse a 1st half gameplan of 2 yard passes coming out of a bye week and absolutely no ball movement until the second half with no even attempting to go downfield until then. 

"Young and inexperienced" can't explain the Joe Barry hire. 

 

Those things have nothing to do with being young and inexperienced.  Those things are on Matt.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

1 hour ago, adambr2 said:

"Young and inexperienced" can't excuse a 1st half gameplan of 2 yard passes coming out of a bye week and absolutely no ball movement until the second half with no even attempting to go downfield until then. 

"Young and inexperienced" can't explain the Joe Barry hire. 

 

Those things have nothing to do with being young and inexperienced.  Those things are on Matt.

People are literally colliding while running wrong routes as well as TEs blocking the wrong defender but you do you

[LouisEly]

Maybe the first person(s) to go are the strength and conditioning coaches.  The number of hamstring injuries is mind boggling.

[adambr2]

6 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

People are literally colliding while running wrong routes as well as TEs blocking the wrong defender but you do you

Completely deflected and ignored my points but you do you. I'm certainly not the only one in the universe at least questioning whether the organization might be in need of a coaching overhaul from the GM on down. 

[yourout]

17 hours ago, adambr2 said:

I think we need to be open to the possibility that Matt Lafleur is a poor, bottom of the NFL head coach. 

It was easy to hide his shortcomings and look good when Aaron Rodgers was basically running the offense for him based on experience. Now that he's not, MLF is getting pretty exposed. He doesn't make good coaching hires. He doesn't gameplan well. 

I get what the Packers were trying to do. They wanted to see if this was a Sean McVay hire. It was not. 

Lafleur, frankly, looks like a boy amongst men on Sundays. 

If they go 4 and 13 is would be fine with a complete house cleaning from Guty on down.

I have seen nothing in talent or coaching to think a super bowl is possible in the next 5 years.

[LouisEly]

17 hours ago, adambr2 said:

It was easy to hide his shortcomings and look good when Aaron Rodgers was basically running the offense for him based on experience. Now that he's not, MLF is getting pretty exposed. He doesn't make good coaching hires. He doesn't gameplan well. 

Fair to question the coaching hires.  Stenavich was highly regarded and the thought was that they needed to promote him or someone else would poach him.  Barry is fair game, but despite injuries defense isn't the problem this year.

Keep in mind that Rodgers had:

• Veteran WRs (Lazard, Cobb, Watkins for part of the season) to throw to
• A healthy Aaron Jones
• A mostly healthy Bakh and Elgton Jenkins in 2022
• Veteran TEs (Lewis, Tonyan, Davis)
• Davante Adams (if you're talking about pre-2022)
• Veteran WRs to help coach Watson/Doubs/Toure

I don't think that what Rodgers was working with and what they are working with this year are remotely comparable.

[adambr2]

41 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

Fair to question the coaching hires.  Stenavich was highly regarded and the thought was that they needed to promote him or someone else would poach him.  Barry is fair game, but despite injuries defense isn't the problem this year.

Keep in mind that Rodgers had:

• Veteran WRs (Lazard, Cobb, Watkins for part of the season) to throw to
• A healthy Aaron Jones
• A mostly healthy Bakh and Elgton Jenkins in 2022
• Veteran TEs (Lewis, Tonyan, Davis)
• Davante Adams (if you're talking about pre-2022)
• Veteran WRs to help coach Watson/Doubs/Toure

I don't think that what Rodgers was working with and what they are working with this year are remotely comparable.

Was Bahk healthy last year? I could have sworn it was pretty much another lost year from him but maybe I'm remembering wrong. 

[LouisEly]

5 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Was Bahk healthy last year? I could have sworn it was pretty much another lost year from him but maybe I'm remembering wrong. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BakhDa00.htm

Started a majority (11 of 17) of games (which is 10 more than he will start this year).  Keep in mind, I said mostly healthy.

[adambr2]

9 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BakhDa00.htm

Started a majority (11 of 17) of games (which is 10 more than he will start this year).  Keep in mind, I said mostly healthy.

Yeah makes sense. Still struggled with the injury but at least more available than not. I must have been thinking of 2021. 

[adambr2]

So, gotta put this out there. 

IF Love ain't the guy. If this season doesn't improve and just stays really bad, like top 5 pick bad....you gotta take a QB, right?

Who is your can't miss, no brainer future franchise QB? Drake Maye? JJ McCarthy?

If Love someone does enough to make him worth doubling down on...I guess you could go with one of the premiere tackles on the board, or of course Marvin Harrison. 

[BrewerFan]

5 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Fair to question the coaching hires.  Stenavich was highly regarded and the thought was that they needed to promote him or someone else would poach him.  Barry is fair game, but despite injuries defense isn't the problem this year.

Keep in mind that Rodgers had:

• Veteran WRs (Lazard, Cobb, Watkins for part of the season) to throw to
• A healthy Aaron Jones
• A mostly healthy Bakh and Elgton Jenkins in 2022
• Veteran TEs (Lewis, Tonyan, Davis)
• Davante Adams (if you're talking about pre-2022)
• Veteran WRs to help coach Watson/Doubs/Toure

I don't think that what Rodgers was working with and what they are working with this year are remotely comparable.

Also keep in mind Barry wasn't his first choice. He was also forced to keep Pettine an additional year and wanted to hire Rizzi, the STs Guru that the Saints ended up paying like an NFL Coach.

And also that this was a 6 win team when he took over. So we know that twice he didn't have complete autonomy over his Coordinators and a third he didn't get the Coordinator he wanted.

 

I think these are growing pains made worse by again losing Bakh...Jenkins hasn't been back to normal and their young WRers/TEs look talented, but they're just young. 

17 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

Some pretty strong and definitive conclusions being drawn about a young and inexperienced team that is performing exactly like most young and inexperienced teams tend to perform. Especially regarding this offense. Do yourself a favor and look up the 2021 Detroit Lions and see how that young team fared with veteran QB Jared Goff at the helm.

 

As for him not being a "Sean McVay" hire, McVay was 5-12 last year. The Packers trounced him pretty good in the playoffs. If we had a healthy Bakh...I think MLF has a SB and all the cache, but it's a bit funny the degree of certainty we've got now that MLF ISN'T the guy. 

 

2 hours ago, adambr2 said:

IF Love ain't the guy. If this season doesn't improve and just stays really bad, like top 5 pick bad....you gotta take a QB, right?

Who is your can't miss, no brainer future franchise QB? Drake Maye? JJ McCarthy?

If Love someone does enough to make him worth doubling down on...I guess you could go with one of the premiere tackles on the board, or of course Marvin Harrison. 

No, not a chance on McCarthy. I really doubt we're high enough to pick Maye and it'd be sillly...IMO, to give up on him with this youth and a terrible OL ONE season in.

I guess you consider it if you can get Caleb Williams...maybe Maye, but nobody else is worth it. 

It also helps to really understand the problems, not just "offense sucks-QB sucks-coach sucks."

Love has done enough that it's obvious he's capable of being a high-end starter.
He's also struggled at times as....I think pretty much everyone expected. 

If you can't get one of the top 2...and I don't see how it's possible to finish below Chicago and Carolina, so it's really just the one at that point(and if Chicago is 1 and 2, they'd be wise to trade #2 to a team that needs Maye which means giving up future 1sts and less likely to be to GB) again, 

Other than that, you draft one of the OTs. At least one of the OTs and I'd draft Two in this class.

 

Anyway, an actual breakdown on how 'bad' Love was.

 

[BrewerFan]

By the way...I don't recall anyone specifically complaining about Gary. IIRC, most of the usual posters were measured(I remember a couple were POSITIVE they could have traded back to 20 or so and still gotten him.

But the main thing is I remember how many people were upset the 'Brilliant' Pats took Chase Winovich went in the 3rd round and we got the lesser of the two Michigan pass rushers at #12.

 

Maybe a reminder for some that it's good to step back and now zero in so much on each game and take a look at the larger picture;

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/10/former-dolphins-patriots-de-chase-winovich-retires

[GAME05]

You can't really make too many conclusions about a QB when all the other working parts (OL, WR, Coaching) aren't good. We'd be saying Sam Darnold was a decent QB if he only wound up in better spots than NY and Carolina. 

Fashanu will go well before the Packers pick, so it's Joe Alt or bust for me. And I'm also in the camp that a G/C would be great in the second round, too. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

9 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Also keep in mind Barry wasn't his first choice. He was also forced to keep Pettine an additional year and wanted to hire Rizzi, the STs Guru that the Saints ended up paying like an NFL Coach.

And also that this was a 6 win team when he took over. So we know that twice he didn't have complete autonomy over his Coordinators and a third he didn't get the Coordinator he wanted.

 

I think these are growing pains made worse by again losing Bakh...Jenkins hasn't been back to normal and their young WRers/TEs look talented, but they're just young. 

 

As for him not being a "Sean McVay" hire, McVay was 5-12 last year. The Packers trounced him pretty good in the playoffs. If we had a healthy Bakh...I think MLF has a SB and all the cache, but it's a bit funny the degree of certainty we've got now that MLF ISN'T the guy. 

 

No, not a chance on McCarthy. I really doubt we're high enough to pick Maye and it'd be sillly...IMO, to give up on him with this youth and a terrible OL ONE season in.

I guess you consider it if you can get Caleb Williams...maybe Maye, but nobody else is worth it. 

It also helps to really understand the problems, not just "offense sucks-QB sucks-coach sucks."

Love has done enough that it's obvious he's capable of being a high-end starter.
He's also struggled at times as....I think pretty much everyone expected. 

If you can't get one of the top 2...and I don't see how it's possible to finish below Chicago and Carolina, so it's really just the one at that point(and if Chicago is 1 and 2, they'd be wise to trade #2 to a team that needs Maye which means giving up future 1sts and less likely to be to GB) again, 

Other than that, you draft one of the OTs. At least one of the OTs and I'd draft Two in this class.

 

Anyway, an actual breakdown on how 'bad' Love was.

 

So that leads to the question, who is the current Packer wide receivers coach over the past 2 seasons to develop and groom the stable of young wideouts?  None other than Jason Vrable, who was promoted to that role/passing game coordinator in February 2022 after the last Packer offensive coaching staff exodus to other NFL coaching/coordinating jobs.  So he's as green on that job as the receivers he's trying to develop.  Most of Vrable's resume talks about how he worked with Davante Adams during some of his huge seasons of Packer production...but it makes no mention of the fact Adams was already an established star with Rodgers throwing him the ball, and other offensive coaches were actually coordinating the passing game.

I've noticed this without even watching all-22 film - there are multiple Packer receivers in the same general area all the damn time, either running the same routes, getting rerouted by physical DB play at the LOS, or just wandering across the field without a clue on what they're supposed to be doing.  With all the young receivers, part of this season has to be evaluating who can actually play receiver at the NFL level regardless of who's throwing them the ball - so much of the passing game is based on timing and precision route-running.  Yes, Love has an M.O. with accuracy being an issue - but we've got to remember Rodgers threw 12 picks last season with a more veteran receiver room than there is now in Green Bay when his previous season INT totals could be counted on 1 hand playing with Adams in the mix.  Sometimes it's difficult to determine if Love is inaccurate with the ball placement on a throw or if the Receiver is in the wrong spot...when both are routinely an issue, passing offense looks like a train wreck at the NFL level. 

[BrewerFan]

57 minutes ago, GAME05 said:

You can't really make too many conclusions about a QB when all the other working parts (OL, WR, Coaching) aren't good. We'd be saying Sam Darnold was a decent QB if he only wound up in better spots than NY and Carolina. 

Fashanu will go well before the Packers pick, so it's Joe Alt or bust for me. And I'm also in the camp that a G/C would be great in the second round, too. 

Sure. Your supporting cast can make you or break you. For an established ELITE QB, they can overcome it to some degree, but not to this degree and we don't have an established QB.

 

As for Fashanu...yeah, it looks like he'll be gone. He could go...I guess as high as 2nd, but I don't think Chicago would take another OT, I think they'd trade the pick for a QB and would be more likely to take an Edge(Latu and or Verse could go). Maye, Harrison, and it's entirely possible a couple QBs go earlier. I wouldn't take him, but McCarthy could go(if for instance the Vikings ended up picking ahead of us...or NE). Pennix, Ewers. Or a couple could go back to school.

 

But as of now, we should be in a position to get at least one of the 2.

[BrewerFan]

12 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

So that leads to the question, who is the current Packer wide receivers coach over the past 2 seasons to develop and groom the stable of young wideouts?  None other than Jason Vrable, who was promoted to that role/passing game coordinator in February 2022 after the last Packer offensive coaching staff exodus to other NFL coaching/coordinating jobs.  So he's as green on that job as the receivers he's trying to develop.  Most of Vrable's resume talks about how he worked with Davante Adams during some of his huge seasons of Packer production...but it makes no mention of the fact Adams was already an established star with Rodgers throwing him the ball, and other offensive coaches were actually coordinating the passing game.

I've noticed this without even watching all-22 film - there are multiple Packer receivers in the same general area all the damn time, either running the same routes, getting rerouted by physical DB play at the LOS, or just wandering across the field without a clue on what they're supposed to be doing.  With all the young receivers, part of this season has to be evaluating who can actually play receiver at the NFL level regardless of who's throwing them the ball - so much of the passing game is based on timing and precision route-running.  Yes, Love has an M.O. with accuracy being an issue - but we've got to remember Rodgers threw 12 picks last season with a more veteran receiver room than there is now in Green Bay when his previous season INT totals could be counted on 1 hand playing with Adams in the mix.  Sometimes it's difficult to determine if Love is inaccurate with the ball placement on a throw or if the Receiver is in the wrong spot...when both are routinely an issue, passing offense looks like a train wreck at the NFL level. 

"None other than Vrable!" LOL...that was a build-up but I'm not sure what! It sounds like Jim Garrison talking about the Grassy Knoll. But sure, it's Vrable. I'm not sure if that's a problem, part of the problem, or not. 

I don't have the first clue if this is WRers and their inexperience or poor coaching. It feels like when you have a good position group, that position coach is really good, when you have a bad one, they're bad. 

Was Edgar Bennett a great WR coach? I have no idea. I know people wanted Adams cut going into his 3rd year, so...I have no idea how to even begin to quantify how to divide up the blame, coach, players, youth, and natural progression...maybe Love called the play wrong. Maybe a WR broke off a route or is trying to get into an open area in the zone. 

I have no clue who's at fault here. Maybe you bring back Edgar? Or....I don't know. That's all beyond the purview of a fan IMO. 

 

 

[BrewerFan]

I think this is the best...run down of Jordan Love I've seen so far.

I'll just say I flatly disagree with the premise that you have to decide on signing him by the end of this year. I'd rather wait until his final year or when he's due to be a FA than overpay him. But setting that aside...it's a good read;

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/10/25/23931156/jordan-love-green-bay-packers-offense-contract-dilemma

[homer]

I think the defense is still a big problem They have gotten lucky because they've played some really bad offenses thus far. Detroit being the exception and they pounded us. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

15 minutes ago, homer said:

I think the defense is still a big problem They have gotten lucky because they've played some really bad offenses thus far. Detroit being the exception and they pounded us. 

100% - going into this season the first 6-7 games I saw as a potential advantage for the Packers to get off to a better start recordwise that many assumed they would because there weren't playing any juggernauts on paper.   The problem with that guess on my end is how poorly the offense has performed, wasting three very winnable games.

The Defense IMO has actually underperformed based on the personnel they have on that side of the ball - due to a combination of a ton of injuries (once again) and weird game planning/coordination (once again).  It feels like what the Packers' defense tends to do midseason after they get gashed early, then skate through a part of their schedule where they're respectable against bad offenses, only to get gashed again late in the year.