Packers 2023 Discussion Thread

[BrewerFan]

Ok...so here's what we know.

1-Jordan Love can manage a game and beat up on base defenses

2-Jordan Love can look REALLY bad and miss some throws a good QBs should make.

3-Jordan Love can look REALLY good and make some throws VERY few QBs should make.

So...Jordan Love is...what exactly at this time?

The only thing I know...Joe Barry still sucks. Even when the D plays well, it feels despite of Barry. 

[RobertR]

The thing I'd add that we know is that this young team commits a lot of penalties. And it needs to be a coaching point of emphasis as it clearly hurt them. 

[homer]

I can't wait to see what this team looks like once we have a fully armed and operational battle station, er, offense.

[Fear The Chorizo]

30 minutes ago, homer said:

I can't wait to see what this team looks like once we have a fully armed and operational battle station, er, offense.

Agreed, but I'm also a bit pessimistic that's ever going to happen this season, unfortunately.  Their deep OL is already being tested with issues and I don't see that improving at any point this season with the Bakh daily soap opera, Jenkins out awhile and now some questions with Tom.  The one thing Watson has done consistently through his young career is pick up nagging soft tissue injuries that keep him off the field on gameday.

It is exciting for a young quarterback growing with such a young group of pass catchers - but at times they're going to look out of sync.  There's definitely talent there, though.  The other thing with so many young players, guys that are making plays are going to stay on the field - while Watson is unquestionably talented when he's 100% healthy, if he can't be on the field consistently there seems to be a good # of guys who will gladly take his starting spot on the outside.  

A healthy Jones in the backfield coupled with an emerging, athletic TE and the other young WRs later this season is alot of different places the ball can go to.

[CheezWizHed]

14 hours ago, homer said:

I can't wait to see what this team looks like once we have a fully armed and operational battle station, er, offense.

Just so they take care to defend the exhaust port. er, quarterback. 

Love does need to clean up his ups and downs. But Watson could change things pretty well.  Jones obviously too (maybe moreso). 

[kestrel79]

How many games have both Doubs and Watson been on the field together? It can't be that many, right? 

 

Hoping those guys can stay healthy.

[young guns]

So is there a local station the game will air on for those that done have amazon?

[OldHeidelberg]

So now that we are 3 games in and maybe even have some playoff aspirations does trading for JT make more sense? Dillon looks done and Jones is getting long in the tooth and already missing games. Maybe Indy will take a 2nd rounder now and be done with him? Of course the elephant in the room is do we want to pay JT premium RB money but if healthy he sure would help this year and we would need to invest draft picks in the position next year anyway.

[homer]

1 hour ago, young guns said:

So is there a local station the game will air on for those that done have amazon?

Do you need a subscription to Amazon Prime to watch the Packers-Lions?

Probably yes, though not if you live in the Green Bay or Milwaukee markets. If you live in Milwaukee, the game will also air on WITI (Fox 6). In northeast Wisconsin, it'll be on WGBA (NBC 26). Everyone else will need a subscription to Amazon Prime to stream the game (unless they're in Detroit, where it's also airing on a traditional linear channel).

[homer]

2 hours ago, kestrel79 said:

How many games have both Doubs and Watson been on the field together? It can't be that many, right? 

 

Hoping those guys can stay healthy.

10 -> 2022 - Weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 14, 15, 16, 17

Felt like Watson missed more than 3 games but he was probably limited or left early in a few. Doubs missed weeks 10 - 13.

[BrewerFan]

6 hours ago, OldHeidelberg said:

So now that we are 3 games in and maybe even have some playoff aspirations does trading for JT make more sense? Dillon looks done and Jones is getting long in the tooth and already missing games. Maybe Indy will take a 2nd rounder now and be done with him? Of course the elephant in the room is do we want to pay JT premium RB money but if healthy he sure would help this year and we would need to invest draft picks in the position next year anyway.

I'm about as giddy about this team as you can be, but I really wouldn't. Playoff aspirations are nice, but I don't think I'd give up a 2nd+15M for a RB yet.

It's kinda silly how everything has fallen into place sans the 4Q in ATL, but Taylor is more of a luxury and finishing piece IMO than a move you make while you're still climbing out of salary cap purgatory. 

 

Now, if they make the trade, I'll be thrilled and I think he could be a great fit with this offense, but I still think right now using our draft picks and finding a long term solution at LT...or RT, Tom gives you the luxury of being able to draft a guy like Mims or Latham or whomever proves to be the best option by the time the draft comes around. And then they still need to address the interior OL, the way the Packers move, if a guy like Newton from Illinios is there in the 2nd, they'll take him(they like to address positions before their a problem...or so it seems). 

Taylor is so explosive and he played in the same system at Wisconsin(the run blocking). So...yeah, I really wouldn't shed tears over bring in a 230LB power back who also has HR speed!

Imagine pairing him up with Aaron Jones next year(I still don't think Jones would be cut).

 

 

[CheezWizHed]

JT for a 2nd?  Yes, I'd do that.  JT and Jones would be incredible together.  We will have enough salary cap next year to hand both salaries as we have a very young WR group. And Jones contract expires by the time any WR needs a bigger contract.

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

JT for a 2nd?  Yes, I'd do that.  JT and Jones would be incredible together.  We will have enough salary cap next year to hand both salaries as we have a very young WR group. And Jones contract expires by the time any WR needs a bigger contract.

A healthy JT for a 2nd?  Sure...but do we actually know he's healthy and that ankle isn't a chronic problem that turns him from being the best back in the league into an average RB that isn't worth longterm $$.

[BrewerFan]

5 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

A healthy JT for a 2nd?  Sure...but do we actually know he's healthy and that ankle isn't a chronic problem that turns him from being the best back in the league into an average RB that isn't worth longterm $$.

His ankle is fine by all reports. He's doing for negotiating purposes. 

[CheezWizHed]

5 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

A healthy JT for a 2nd?  Sure...but do we actually know he's healthy and that ankle isn't a chronic problem that turns him from being the best back in the league into an average RB that isn't worth longterm $$.

Those are the risks you take to get a pro bowler.   A 2nd round pick and cash isn't that big of a risk frankly.  Especially with the numbers of people we have on rookie contracts.

[BrewerFan]

Bakh ruled out again.

What is going on? He HAD to have re-injured that knee in week 1. How do you go from playing every play and looking spry, jumping over piles...to out the next 3 weeks?

Jenkins predictably out. I don't know if that's been officially diagnosed, but it seems like an MCL and 2-4 weeks seems the most likely given not putting him on IR.

Campbell is also out. That hurts, but not nearly as much at this point.

[Fear The Chorizo]

17 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Bakh ruled out again.

What is going on? He HAD to have re-injured that knee in week 1. How do you go from playing every play and looking spry, jumping over piles...to out the next 3 weeks?

Jenkins predictably out. I don't know if that's been officially diagnosed, but it seems like an MCL and 2-4 weeks seems the most likely given not putting him on IR.

Campbell is also out. That hurts, but not nearly as much at this point.

I don't know if he reinjured the knee...I think the knee was never able to be repaired and he's done being an NFL player.  It just sucks that you could probably have said the same thing almost 3 calendar years ago right after that significant knee injury in a late season practice (those are almost never game speed/full contact/full speed practices), yet he's been cashing checks from that $100+M extension ever since.  Regular season game speed reps is a whole different ballgame than participating in training camp drills, and how you're able to recover from that is paramount to being a NFL player.  By all accounts the initial ACL injury he suffered in late 2020 was repaired by the first surgery, but there's been persistent swelling an other issues that have led to 3 followup surgeries that don't seem to be capable of correcting the problem.  Sometimes a big guy's body isn't as willing to continue playing as the guy's mind is, and unfortunately that appears to be the case with #69.  

If your starting LT can't be counted on to suit up and play on regular rest the week after playing a season opener in September on arguably the softest playing surface in the NFL and not suffering any obvious injury during that game, and he's now about to miss his 3rd straight game, he's not your starting LT anymore.  I don't think there are any good options for the front office to do with him besides toss him back on IR for the rest of this season and then cut him in the offseason.  Bakh has been willing to restructure that huge initial contract extension on almost a yearly basis so it hasn't been a salary cap nightmare, but part of that willingness is likely due to finding out ways to earn as much as he can before he moves into a TV commentary or podcast role...truth is his career appears to have ended in 2020, and it's a shame this has dragged on this long primarily because the timing of that injury couldn't have come at a worse time for the Packers in terms of both 2020-21 Super Bowl aspirations and longterm salary cap management purposes.

[BrewerFan]

3 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

I don't know if he reinjured the knee...I think the knee was never able to be repaired and he's done being an NFL player.  It just sucks that you could probably have said the same thing almost 3 calendar years ago right after that significant knee injury in a late season practice (those are almost never game speed/full contact/full speed practices), yet he's been cashing checks from that $100+M extension ever since.  Regular season game speed reps is a whole different ballgame than participating in training camp drills, and how you're able to recover from that is paramount to being a NFL player.  By all accounts the initial ACL injury he suffered in late 2020 was repaired by the first surgery, but there's been persistent swelling an other issues that have led to 3 followup surgeries that don't seem to be capable of correcting the problem.  Sometimes a big guy's body isn't as willing to continue playing as the guy's mind is, and unfortunately that appears to be the case with #69.  

If your starting LT can't be counted on to suit up and play on regular rest the week after playing a season opener in September on arguably the softest playing surface in the NFL and not suffering any obvious injury during that game, and he's now about to miss his 3rd straight game, he's not your starting LT anymore.  I don't think there are any good options for the front office to do with him besides toss him back on IR for the rest of this season and then cut him in the offseason.  Bakh has been willing to restructure that huge initial contract extension on almost a yearly basis so it hasn't been a salary cap nightmare, but part of that willingness is likely due to finding out ways to earn as much as he can before he moves into a TV commentary or podcast role...truth is his career appears to have ended in 2020, and it's a shame this has dragged on this long primarily because the timing of that injury couldn't have come at a worse time for the Packers in terms of both 2020-21 Super Bowl aspirations and longterm salary cap management purposes.

Yeah, I agree he's just not your starting LT at this point. The thing is, they specifically said his knee was structurally sound. It wasn't bone on bone, the ACL surgery took, they addressed the meniscus, they cleaned out the scar tissue(that's just a pain tolerance issue). 

I wouldn't put him on IR. He's clearly CLOSE enough to being able to play each week or they'd just have him on IR and somehow with this injury, when he does play, he's still elite. And I'm hoping at this point that the plan is for him to play the 2nd half of the year more, and they're resting him so he's available more later, but I know that's a reach. But I'd just take him when he can play, be happy he can and then that's all you really can do this year. The thing is, there WAS trade interest in him. The Jets had interest, the Packers completely shut it down. Why would they do that if they knew exactly what his knee looked like? It just makes me a little confused. A 4th rd pick would have been huge-IF they knew how little he'd play. 

--He signed a 4/92M dollar deal though, not over 100M(not a big distinction) but he also HASN'T been willing to restructure. The Packers have restructured. An NFL player has to agree to add void years for example or restructure and change their pay. 

The only thing they've done with Bakh is take his base salary and his roster bonus and turn that into a signing bonus and spread it out. So last year it was 9.5 for the roster and I think 6.7M for the Base and they just handed him a check for that money and called it a signing bonus. 

So it's actually frustrating that he HASN'T been willing to restructure or do anything. Just the literal bare minimum that the Packers can do without his approval. 

 

But bottom line, that injury may very well have cost the Packers a SB. I believe if you have Bakh, you win that TB game OR the SF game. Especially pre-injury Bakh. And at that point, who knows how things work out.

 

But moving forward, the #1 priority has to be addressing the OL. It's still in reasonably good shape without Bakh(when you have Jenkins and Tom) but you need to stay ahead of that. We're lucky we've got Walker, Nijman, maybe Caleb Jones. Haven't seen him live. But this 2024 draft needs to really be centered around adding an impact OT, a Center if there's one available(the guy from UGA, Sedrick Van Pran is the ideal 2nd rd pick) and I'd even take a Guard with the other 2nd Rd pick or trade up.

 

Say we're picking 20th. Trade up to 12-15 and take Joe Alt(ND LT, absolutely dominated OSUs highly rated edge rushers making them look like kids) or the big 5 star recruit in Mims from UGA. JC Latham, Sumataria from BYU was a 5 star who went to Oregon but wanted to be closer to home so transferred back to BYU, Fashanu from PSU seems like a top 5 pick, but...whatever, there are a LOT of really good OTs, be aggressive with so many fewer needs than you had the last couple years and go up and get the next 10-12 year starter. 

I also think Walker could be a really good OG. You need to replace JRJ and Bakh next year, I think you should try and replace Myers. Trading for need is generally not a good idea, but when you have so few holes because you've had SO many draft picks the last couple years(and seemingly hit on so many), it just makes sense to me to go out and now use your draft capital to trade up and target the most important positions with a young QB.

 

After LT/C and a DL(if there's one who's still there+worthy like Kris Jenkins, Cullen Jenkins Newphew) then I'd go S/RB/LB. There's a LBer from Georgia who's 6'4 220, Smael Mondon, who took over for Walker who is so athletic and smooth(but undersized yet)...it'd be amazing to think about pairing them up. But now I'm making this a whole draft post. 

 

Yeah, bullet points.

-Bakh not starting Center
-Obviously not going to be back in '24
-Injury to the games best pass blocking LT significantly impacted 2-3 playoff runs possibly costing them a SB and maybe 2 other playoff runs.

[adambr2]

Andddd he's going on IR.

https://www.packers.com/news/packers-place-t-david-bakhtiari-on-injured-reserve-2023?game&fbclid=IwAR1BOn8SnTWXnVPrVV9CZ6t42_5RHnH1hxzYhSEk_qUkZcSa0hTTi-oe3rs

[HarryDoyle]

I think it's at the point where the knee is just degenerative and will never be the same. I will also not be surprised if Bakh has played his last down in Green Bay, if not his career.

[HarveysWBs]

Man, it just sucks.  And I’m not even upset at anyone’s decision-making throughout this process.  The team thought Bakh was on the mend and kept bringing him back (seems like they had sound medical reasons to do this) and the best pass-blocking LT is useful for a title run AND for breaking in your new franchise QB.

And if you’re Bakh, you’re not turning down that money, especially not when you’re still dominant (at least not when you can actually take the field—and that’s the wildest part of all this, Bakh has been very good whenever he suited up).

It’s just a shame.

[BrewerFan]

2 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

I think it's at the point where the knee is just degenerative and will never be the same. I will also not be surprised if Bakh has played his last down in Green Bay, if not his career.

I guess it's hard to be surprised about anything with him at this point. I am just confused. There's a quote in the NFL.com site that the "time line for a return for this injury." What the hell does that even mean at this point?

I'm convinced he suffered some type of injury week 1 aside from the obvious torn ACL from the . You're usually not going to have a degenerative injury like this unless you just don't have any cartilage left and they've repeatedly said his knee was healed, it was scar tissue, etc...etc..

Whatever it is...it sucks. Signed a 4 year deal worth up to 105.5M with incentives on Nov 15th. Tore his ACL Dec 31st.

6 weeks we got a healthy Bakhtiari.

I'll still take what we can get for him this year, but...why the hell would the Packers not consider trading him this off-season when the Jets spoke with him if MLF knew all along it'd be a "week to week type of thing?" That's why I'm thinking there's some type of newer injury.

 

I guess that's why as a Player, you take what you can get, whenever you can get it. Eh, whatever. Walker looks good, Tom is gonna play. Just have to get the ball out quickly. 

[LouisEly]

Last week Walker allowed one pressure in 55 dropbacks.  Not sure what his specific pass block PFF rating is, but The Packers' offensive line leads the NFL with a pass-blocking efficiency rating of 93.9.  Last week Walker had the second best PFF grade on offense at 73.2, better than Tom.  I can't see the exact number, but PFF has Walker at #14 overall among OTs.

At this point I don't see the need to give up a bunch of picks to move up in the first round for an OT. 

[CheezWizHed]

3 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Last week Walker allowed one pressure in 55 dropbacks.  Not sure what his specific pass block PFF rating is, but The Packers' offensive line leads the NFL with a pass-blocking efficiency rating of 93.9.  Last week Walker had the second best PFF grade on offense at 73.2, better than Tom.  I can't see the exact number, but PFF has Walker at #14 overall among OTs.

At this point I don't see the need to give up a bunch of picks to move up in the first round for an OT. 

Because we won't need to move up?  If we can't get healthy, we might be top 10.

[BrewerFan]

4 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Last week Walker allowed one pressure in 55 dropbacks.  Not sure what his specific pass block PFF rating is, but The Packers' offensive line leads the NFL with a pass-blocking efficiency rating of 93.9.  Last week Walker had the second best PFF grade on offense at 73.2, better than Tom.  I can't see the exact number, but PFF has Walker at #14 overall among OTs.

At this point I don't see the need to give up a bunch of picks to move up in the first round for an OT. 

I think Walker has been very solid. I think he and Tom were decent tonight. I don't think Walker is an elite OT despite his performance vs the Saints and the Falcons(who really have no pass rush threats).

Walker's grade at LT is roughly the same as Nijman's the last couple years. That's not good enough.

ESPECIALLY on a team that if you're looking at your premium positions
QB-Seems like a check
WR-Check
TE-Check
Edge-Check
CB-Check...and Check(I think Valentine is a capable starter and Stokes...hopefully he comes back).
MLB-Check

DL-You definitely want to address the DL before you need to. You could still do that. 

OL? 

There are some positions where solid is good enough, OT isn't one of them. Maybe we don't need to trade up, but we still need to address OT and C. And in doing so, I think we'll address OG. Walker can move inside and play Guard, likely at an elite level. 

You want to trust Walker/Jenkins/?/?/Tom or do you think a former 5 star recruit who's dominating in the SEC(Latham, Mims) or the Pac 12 in Sumataria...OR for ND(Alt) with Walker at RG and then hopefully a Center in the 2nd rd?

One of those looks...'good enough' to me, the other looks like an OL that can stack up with Detroit. 

 

You build a dominant DL, literally EVERYTHING feeds off that. You're fine getting by with Walker if you can't have Bakh, but you absolutely need to be aggressive and go get a bookend for Tom. Otherwise you need to be much better everywhere else. Take Trent away from SF. Take Mailata away from Philly?

 

We've faced ONE elite edge rusher and we were sliding protection to him depending on what side he was on and we were getting destroyed everywhere else.

The only other argument that makes sense to me is if there's a great DL on the board, but I'd still move up for whoever we have graded as an elite OT. I don't know who'll that will be by the end of the year, there's a lot of talent this year, but you need guys who can block ELITE pass rushers, not the trash that Chicago, ATL and NO outside of an aging Cam Jordan have thrown at you. 

What about Myles Garrett, Nick Bosa, TJ Watt, Parsons? 

A guy like Alt is a stud in pass pro and vs the run. He absolutely dominated two draft prospects, one who's mocked in the top 10 as of now when they played OSU. THAT is the type of player you need.

Tristan Wirfs changed the Buccs offense almost as much as Brady;

Bakh's injury is the single biggest reason we failed in 2020, 21 and '22 IMO.

Not a place to get by with 'good enough.'