2023-24 Wisconsin Basketball season thread

[jay87shot]

8 minutes ago, RedStickBrew said:

It begins… not surprising 

 

Dang, sounded like Storr was non-commital about returning when asked as well.

[RedStickBrew]

3 minutes ago, jay87shot said:

I am done with Gard (have been for a few years). 

1) No Wisconsin recruiting, the Wisconsin kids are transfers. We have to get the top talent in our own state.

2) No development, especially from the bigs.  Ethan Happ, Khalil Iverson, Nate Reuers, Ben Carlson, Ilver, Gilmore Wahl, and Crawl didn't improve any part of there games other than getting stronger. It was a staple of Bennett and Ryan with bigs that can shot. Aleem Ford and Micah Potter are the only guys who improves and Potter was a transfer and Ford averaged under 9 points a game as a senior.

3) Iso sets a big moments. Way too often coming out of a timeout in a big spot the play call is iso for Chucky Hepburn. 

No argument here. Even in this new era of college hoops UW will need to identify and develop talent. It is a glaring weakness on this current roster just looking at year over year on court production from the current players.

[RedStickBrew]

5 minutes ago, jay87shot said:

Dang, sounded like Storr was non-commital about returning when asked as well.

Probably not a great sign. It appears he may be negotiating for a larger chunk of NIL but either way not great news

[Jim French Stepstool]

My view on this, FWIW:

There are many, many more reasons to keep Gard, than not. I know how easy it is to judge someone on their most recent performance, be it coach, player, investment banker, kid cutting your grass, whatever. I've watched a lot of games since he's been in charge. Many in person. I think there have been times he's been outcoached, but I believe the opposite has been true much more often.

Was he outcoached Friday? That argument can be made, I guess. But he used his bigs as a pressure outlet---just about all teams do that---and Crowl turned the ball over four times. His other big has been, throughout his career, exceptional at handling & passing the ball as a 6-9 player. That player had probably the worst stretch of basketball of his career, and his replacements, vs this opponent, would've been worse. You could've gone small. They did during part of the game. But then you're giving up size to Bickerstaff, the only guy on JMU that made over half of his shots, not to mention probably matching him with Storr. Bad idea. In short, it's easy to shout from the rooftops about a coaches' idiocy when you don't have to come up with an alternative.

There have been recruits that would've helped that we didn't go after hard enough, if at all (Momcilovic, Halliburton). But there are also kids like Blackwell, who virtually no one else wanted, and Johnny Davis, who was vastly overlooked by most.

Here's what I think will happen, knowing McIntosh: Gard is going to be given this current recruiting cycle (certainly an important one) & the next season. After that, whatever level of success in those two areas constitutes Mac keeping him, I have no idea. I just hope, if he does make a change, he does his homework or at least leans heavily on folks who know basketball a little better than he does. Because as Lucroy said, it's really easy to do "splashy" in this sport and fail mightily.

Also, a bit of advice for anyone interested: Don't waste your time engaging in conversation with the more obsessive "Fire Gard" crowd. The next objective thought they get will be their first, and I believe many of them are motivated by things that have zero to do with basketball.

[RedStickBrew]

6 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

My view on this, FWIW:

There are many, many more reasons to keep Gard, than not. I know how easy it is to judge someone on their most recent performance, be it coach, player, investment banker, kid cutting your grass, whatever. I've watched a lot of games since he's been in charge. Many in person. I think there have been times he's been outcoached, but I believe the opposite has been true much more often.

Was he outcoached Friday? That argument can be made, I guess. But he used his bigs as a pressure outlet---just about all teams do that---and Crowl turned the ball over four times. His other big has been, throughout his career, exceptional at handling & passing the ball as a 6-9 player. That player had probably the worst stretch of basketball of his career, and his replacements, vs this opponent, would've been worse. You could've gone small. They did during part of the game. But then you're giving up size to Bickerstaff, the only guy on JMU that made over half of his shots, not to mention probably matching him with Storr. Bad idea. In short, it's easy to shout from the rooftops about a coaches' idiocy when you don't have to come up with an alternative.

There have been recruits that would've helped that we didn't go after hard enough, if at all (Momcilovic, Halliburton). But there are also kids like Blackwell, who virtually no one else wanted, and Johnny Davis, who was vastly overlooked by most.

Here's what I think will happen, knowing McIntosh: Gard is going to be given this current recruiting cycle (certainly an important one) & the next season. After that, whatever level of success in those two areas constitutes Mac keeping him, I have no idea. I just hope, if he does make a change, he does his homework or at least leans heavily on folks who know basketball a little better than he does. Because as Lucroy said, it's really easy to do "splashy" in this sport and fail mightily.

Also, a bit of advice for anyone interested: Don't waste your time engaging in conversation with the more obsessive "Fire Gard" crowd. The next objective thought they get will be their first, and I believe many of them are motivated by things that have zero to do with basketball.

Well said. I only post about sports on this site because it’s a community of decent people here. 

I can also understand why people are frustrated with the direction of the program and why Mac might want to make a change too. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

40 minutes ago, yourout said:

I wish him well. He seemed to handle everything well while not being a disruption.

As do I. I think his best option is to simply go to a mid-major or lower level. A level where there are people he can guard sufficiently enough to stay on the floor & contribute his best asset--his shot. I agree he wasn't a distraction & handled things extremely well. But for the life of me I don't know why you have to, well, all but lie about your intentions. When asked 2-3 weeks ago all he had to say was "I'm not even thinking about that. I'm concentrating on the season".

Still, by all accounts a good kid.

[homer]

1 minute ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

As do I. I think his best option is to simply go to a mid-major or lower level. A level where there are people he can guard sufficiently enough to stay on the floor & contribute his best asset--his shot. I agree he wasn't a distraction & handled things extremely well. But for the life of me I don't know why you have to, well, all but lie about your intentions. When asked 2-3 weeks ago all he had to say was "I'm not even thinking about that. I'm concentrating on the season".

Still, by all accounts a good kid.

to his credit, he probably didn't want to be a distraction during the tourney. Not a fan of a reporter putting a kid on the spot like that. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

2 minutes ago, RedStickBrew said:

Well said. I only post about sports on this site because it’s a community of decent people here. 

I can also understand why people are frustrated with the direction of the program and why Mac might want to make a change too. 

I get the frustration too. They finished the season with, if not their worst performance, one of the bottom 4 or 5. Still, many programs would kill for the last five years of "direction" they've turned in. The next year (or two) should have a lot more to do with any ultimate decision, than the last five IMO.

[Jim French Stepstool]

3 minutes ago, homer said:

to his credit, he probably didn't want to be a distraction during the tourney. Not a fan of a reporter putting a kid on the spot like that. 

Yep. Don't get me started about what I think of reporters lol. But deflect it. Show that you're not the least bit interested in talking about it. That's better than saying something that probably misled a lot of folks.

[yourout]

11 minutes ago, homer said:

to his credit, he probably didn't want to be a distraction during the tourney. Not a fan of a reporter putting a kid on the spot like that. 

There's a few things I said as a 20 year old I look back on now and go "what the hell was I thinking"

[Jim French Stepstool]

4 minutes ago, yourout said:

There's a few things I said as a 20 year old I look back on now and go "what the hell was I thinking"

And probably without a mic stuck in your face😜.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

Essegian is an easy transfer guess. He's got A-10 or MVC all-conference written all over him.

There's plenty I struggle with with Gard, but I also don't know how great a job Wisconsin is nationally. Madison's great, and you have good facilities and NIL, but it's still a football school, and there are probably at least 4 or 5 better jobs in league. Honestly, I think Marquette's a more attractive option because it's all basketball, and there's a ton of history. Shaka is the perfect fit there. I just don't see a better fit than Gard in Madison. You could have made the case for DeVries, maybe, but he's off to West Virginia. Danny Sprinkle? Maybe, but is that really going to be a big upgrade?

Gard's fine. Program's in a decent place. Make the tournament, win a game or two slightly more often. Talk to me in two years if they can't.

[Jim French Stepstool]

1 hour ago, RedStickBrew said:

Probably not a great sign. It appears he may be negotiating for a larger chunk of NIL but either way not great news

There's a school of thought out there that whatever they need to keep him (vs other schools' offers) they'll match or top, and the only way he isn't here next year is if he isn't in school anywhere--meaning Europe or the G-string League or whatever they call it. I'm far from an NBA expert but I suspect his defense & handle are miles away from what they'd need to be for that to be an option.

[RedStickBrew]

1 minute ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

There's a school of thought out there that whatever they need to keep him (vs other schools' offers) they'll match or top, and the only way he isn't here next year is if he isn't in school anywhere--meaning Europe or the G-string League or whatever they call it. I'm far from an NBA expert but I suspect his defense & handle are miles away from what they'd need to be for that to be an option.

You don’t need to be an expert to see he isn’t ready for the NBA. I guess it is just reality now that you have to pay your own players to keep them. Makes me appreciate the Klesmits and McGees even more

[Jim French Stepstool]

4 minutes ago, Cool Hand Lucroy said:

Essegian is an easy transfer guess. He's got A-10 or MVC all-conference written all over him.

There's plenty I struggle with with Gard, but I also don't know how great a job Wisconsin is nationally. Madison's great, and you have good facilities and NIL, but it's still a football school, and there are probably at least 4 or 5 better jobs in league. Honestly, I think Marquette's a more attractive option because it's all basketball, and there's a ton of history. Shaka is the perfect fit there. I just don't see a better fit than Gard in Madison. You could have made the case for DeVries, maybe, but he's off to West Virginia. Danny Sprinkle? Maybe, but is that really going to be a big upgrade?

Gard's fine. Program's in a decent place. Make the tournament, win a game or two slightly more often. Talk to me in two years if they can't.

All the Big East schools are at a disadvantage compared to P-5s because of NIL, due to the school sizes, alumni base------and football. Smart is a good fit there since he has ties to the area & may never leave. They've lost coaches in the past to P-5s. Not saying they can't succeed but there's always a financial challenge due to resources mentioned above. And conference TV contracts, which are largely powered by football but benefit hoops too.

If he gets itchy for a change, I can all but guarantee you Mac would be interested in Otzelberger. I think he also would've loved Lamont Parris, but South Carolina just locked him up for a long time.

[jay87shot]

59 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

My view on this, FWIW:

There are many, many more reasons to keep Gard, than not. I know how easy it is to judge someone on their most recent performance, be it coach, player, investment banker, kid cutting your grass, whatever. I've watched a lot of games since he's been in charge. Many in person. I think there have been times he's been outcoached, but I believe the opposite has been true much more often.

Gard has been an acceptable coach, I don't disagree. His record has been great. I agree with the reasons you mentioned to keep him and add in that there would likely be a sizeable buyout after extending him recently (not sure how much).

However I just don't see any attributes that make him a great coach. Based on that recording from a few years ago he doesn't care about the players. He doesn't recruit well, he doesn't run exceptional set plays or a complicated offense. 

I guess I would rather be risky and take a chance on a new younger coach. Opposed to knowing we will be around 22-10 every year and not have more upside than the sweet 16.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

6 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

All the Big East schools are at a disadvantage compared to P-5s because of NIL, due to the school sizes, alumni base------and football. Smart is a good fit there since he has ties to the area & may never leave. They've lost coaches in the past to P-5s. Not saying they can't succeed but there's always a financial challenge due to resources mentioned above. And conference TV contracts, which are largely powered by football but benefit hoops too.

If he gets itchy for a change, I can all but guarantee you Mac would be interested in Otzelberger. I think he also would've loved Lamont Parris, but South Carolina just locked him up for a long time.

All true enough.

I just love the Big East and think it has the right idea, but they do lose coaches to Power Five schools. My thing is I think UW is going to be about the 8th best job in the new B1G. And football's going to take everything it can. I'd rather be getting the biggest piece (by far) of a smaller pie. That's just me, but, man, I hate conference realignment.

[MrTPlush]

5 minutes ago, jay87shot said:

Gard has been an acceptable coach, I don't disagree. His record has been great. I agree with the reasons you mentioned to keep him and add in that there would likely be a sizeable buyout after extending him recently (not sure how much).

However I just don't see any attributes that make him a great coach. Based on that recording from a few years ago he doesn't care about the players. He doesn't recruit well, he doesn't run exceptional set plays or a complicated offense. 

I guess I would rather be risky and take a chance on a new younger coach. Opposed to knowing we will be around 22-10 every year and not have more upside than the sweet 16.

I think those two good years back to back have made Badgers fans slightly wishful about their potential.  Before those two years they made the Elite 8 once and the Final Four once. 10 and 20 years prior to that 2 year run. The difference is, they used to have quite a few Sweet 16 appearances and consistently made the tourney…now they don’t. 

It is a recruiting issue. They simply don’t go after athletic guys nor do they get very large defensive presence’s to make the paint a nightmare. You can win games all year with gritty guys…but come the tourney, you are going to get smoked sooner rather than later. Is it hard to attract better talent to Wisconsin…has NIL made that worse? Maybe

Feels Wisconsin has always played it the safe route for their players and coaches. Want guys to fit the perfect mold that never changes and a coach who would never leave. However, with NIL, I don’t think it is even worth worrying about keeping guys 4 years. Just can’t bank on it like you could before. Especially when impact Wisconsin players typically aren’t exactly NBA lottery picks. Those guys are going to be much more likely to jump ship and seek a NIL payday.

[Jim French Stepstool]

2 hours ago, jay87shot said:

I am done with Gard (have been for a few years). 

1) No Wisconsin recruiting, the Wisconsin kids are transfers. We have to get the top talent in our own state.

2) No development, especially from the bigs.  Ethan Happ, Khalil Iverson, Nate Reuers, Ben Carlson, Ilver, Gilmore Wahl, and Crawl didn't improve any part of there games other than getting stronger. It was a staple of Bennett and Ryan with bigs that can shot. Aleem Ford and Micah Potter are the only guys who improves and Potter was a transfer and Ford averaged under 9 points a game as a senior.

3) Iso sets a big moments. Way to often coming out of a timeout in a big spot the play call is iso for Chucky Hepburn. 

1) If you look around college hoops you'll see many schools that are successful & don't have a lot of in-state kids. There's another school from the state in the tournament this year. I believe they have three in-state kids, and two of them barely play. Don't get me wrong, Wisconsin produces a LOT of talent & I'd love to see them tap in. But in this day & age recruiting takes on a different sort of vibe--bringing in a transfer, thanks to the portal, IS recruiting. But I'd like to do better than they have done (3 scholarship kids & one committed for '25)

2) Every guy on that list improved while in the program w/ the exception of Carlson (back issues; parents had an issue with the rehab & he left after two years), Ilver & Gilmore. And Wahl improved greatly in his first three years, then plateaued. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

56 minutes ago, jay87shot said:

Gard has been an acceptable coach, I don't disagree. His record has been great. I agree with the reasons you mentioned to keep him and add in that there would likely be a sizeable buyout after extending him recently (not sure how much).

However I just don't see any attributes that make him a great coach. Based on that recording from a few years ago he doesn't care about the players. He doesn't recruit well, he doesn't run exceptional set plays or a complicated offense. 

I guess I would rather be risky and take a chance on a new younger coach. Opposed to knowing we will be around 22-10 every year and not have more upside than the sweet 16.

 I'll put that tape recording, and those comments made in it, up against any other comments made about a coach in the privacy of any other locker room, on other college teams. Of course the key word is 'privacy'. Those other comments on other teams don't exist, because there were no agenda-driven people with recorders in those locker rooms. Throw in that the person most likely guilty of recording was only there due to the tragic misfortune of a colleague........I'm sorry. I'm done with that.

A new younger coach WOULD be risky, and of course it could work out well. But I'll also say this season certainly doesn't have to be the ceiling. If they played this weekend the way they played the weekend prior, they'd probably be in the sweet 16. Able to play at a high level, but not consistently. If anything that's the biggest difference to when Bo was here, moreso than recruiting.

From what I understand he's signed through 26-27.

[Jim French Stepstool]

56 minutes ago, Cool Hand Lucroy said:

All true enough.

I just love the Big East and think it has the right idea, but they do lose coaches to Power Five schools. My thing is I think UW is going to be about the 8th best job in the new B1G. And football's going to take everything it can. I'd rather be getting the biggest piece (by far) of a smaller pie. That's just me, but, man, I hate conference realignment.

I hate realignment too. I grew up with a plethora of conferences in college hoops. Some 10 teams, others a bit bigger, some 8 or 9. Loved it. And I get how air travel & TV have made geographic sense in conferences unnecessary. But money rules. Especially when you have to openly bid for players, and they can leave year-to-year. The old system was flawed, but I think in time we'll see that "change" and "improvement" aren't synonymous. But as currently constructed UWs' piece of that pie, even for basketball, is going to dwarf what non P-5s realize.

[yourout]

7 hours ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

I hate realignment too. I grew up with a plethora of conferences in college hoops. Some 10 teams, others a bit bigger, some 8 or 9. Loved it. And I get how air travel & TV have made geographic sense in conferences unnecessary. But money rules. Especially when you have to openly bid for players, and they can leave year-to-year. The old system was flawed, but I think in time we'll see that "change" and "improvement" aren't synonymous. But as currently constructed UWs' piece of that pie, even for basketball, is going to dwarf what non P-5s realize.

As I like to say...new and improved seldom is.

[MrTPlush]

7 hours ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

A new younger coach WOULD be risky

Would it though? What exactly is so special about Gard that would be a risk to lose? There isn't anything about him that seems above-average. 

[sveumrules]

51 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Would it though? What exactly is so special about Gard that would be a risk to lose? There isn't anything about him that seems above-average. 

186-107 (.635 W%) record, two B10 regular season championships, and six out of eight NCAA tourneys made seems like an above average résumé to me.

I’m not saying Gard is some irreplaceable coaching savant, but there is a lot more room for downward mobility than there is for upward mobility from the Badgers current position as a consistent B10 contender and regular tournament team. 

[MrTPlush]

17 minutes ago, sveumrules said:

186-107 (.635 W%) record, two B10 regular season championships, and six out of eight NCAA tourneys made seems like an above average résumé to me.

I’m not saying Gard is some irreplaceable coaching savant, but there is a lot more room for downward mobility than there is for upward mobility from the Badgers current position as a consistent B10 contender and regular tournament team. 

To me, it really isn't much different than their football coaching situation. PC simply wasn't that great. Not terrible...but the ceiling wasn't there. Are they okay being average in basketball or do they have aspirations for more potential? Gard could quite possibly be on the same downward trajectory that PC was on.

His recruiting is getting very questionable.

2021 - The only player still there and useful is Hepburn...who took a bit of a step back this year.

2022 - His only player he got is leaving after going from 10+ points a game as a freshman to barely playing. 

2023 - This could be promising with Blackwell and Gard's lone Top 100 recruit in Nolan Winter.

2024 - Only two commits despite a lot of guys leaving/graduating.

He isn't getting many recruits and isn't managing any highly regarded recruits anymore. Eventually the bubble is going to burst.