Brewers and Chourio: Heyman reports 8 years, $80 million + 2 club option years

[Team Canada]

On 12/31/2023 at 4:35 AM, Frisbee Slider said:

I assume this is a rhetorical question but no, Arnold didn’t even promise Chourio would be on the opening day roster during the press conference.

Yes, that was the point the rhetorical question was making.

[rickh150]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:54 PM, Brewcrew82 said:

Because there would have been major service time ramifications....And they were considering it, they just weren't ready to go there without an extension in place. 

This is your mind inside of Arnold’s, I gather.  Just a bunch of guesses, unless you have seen comments from Arnold on this topic. Please share if you have and apologies if it is out there.

Personally, I don’t know how a month or two would have major service time ramifications.  He could have still started 2024 in the minors.

Money wise, if he did well in September/October, there would be major ramifications to the deal he just signed. Yet, the Brewers would have GLADLY paid the extra for another bat late in the season.

[rickh150]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:47 PM, sveumrules said:

October, November, December, January, February, March is a couple months a few times over.

Well, he signed in early December and we were still playing in early October….so less than two months. In general, Chourio’s really, really good to give him over $100 million but not really THAT good yet to outplay Winker (who also was living in the minors at season’s end) off the bench. Madness.

[Brewcrew82]

2 hours ago, rickh150 said:

This is your mind inside of Arnold’s, I gather.  Just a bunch of guesses, unless you have seen comments from Arnold on this topic. Please share if you have and apologies if it is out there.

Personally, I don’t know how a month or two would have major service time ramifications.  He could have still started 2024 in the minors.

Money wise, if he did well in September/October, there would be major ramifications to the deal he just signed. Yet, the Brewers would have GLADLY paid the extra for another bat late in the season.

It was in an article from a bit ago that they were considering calling up Chourio. I don’t have it in front of me though I’ll try to dig it up.

They would have had to add him to the 40 man and started his service time clock. Without an extension, that means potential super 2 eligibility and a loss of a year of control of a potential superstar player. Especially if their plan was to start him in the majors on OD. It’s also a hell of a thing to ask a 19 year old kid to make his major league debut off the bench in the postseason and be a difference maker over Winker. 

And if you really want to know whether he’s that good, just consult any mainstream prospect list where he’s consensus top 2 in the game. 

[brewcrewdue80]

Looking at Chourio game logs, he played for AA in Sept through the 16th. Then got 1 week of games at AAA 19-24th. 

There are playoff roster rules that I believe meant Chourio could never play in the postseason, I don't know what date he would have had to be on the 26/7 man team or the 40man.  Someone with more knowledge can put that out there. I kinda thought by Sept 1st, you had to be somewhere along the lines on roster that designates your playoff ability. Then injuries was the way if you weren't on then, that you got on.  

Maybe that's changed over the last few seasons. I just remember a period with passing through waivers at end of August, there was a date to be done by or else they weren't eligible for playoffs?  This was like the trade deadline of waiver-payroll dump.

Just showing Chourio was 2 more weeks of AA ball in Sept and a promotion that may have gotten him to play in playoffs over Winker, may be a bit premature.  Be upset with Winker being on that team over someone else. Chourio shouldn't be the one mentioned.  

 

[Redd Vencher]

7 hours ago, brewcrewdue80 said:

Looking at Chourio game logs, he played for AA in Sept through the 16th. Then got 1 week of games at AAA 19-24th. 

There are playoff roster rules that I believe meant Chourio could never play in the postseason, I don't know what date he would have had to be on the 26/7 man team or the 40man.  Someone with more knowledge can put that out there. I kinda thought by Sept 1st, you had to be somewhere along the lines on roster that designates your playoff ability. Then injuries was the way if you weren't on then, that you got on.  

Maybe that's changed over the last few seasons. I just remember a period with passing through waivers at end of August, there was a date to be done by or else they weren't eligible for playoffs?  This was like the trade deadline of waiver-payroll dump.

Just showing Chourio was 2 more weeks of AA ball in Sept and a promotion that may have gotten him to play in playoffs over Winker, may be a bit premature.  Be upset with Winker being on that team over someone else. Chourio shouldn't be the one mentioned.  

 

You just have to be in the organization on August 31st. Donaldson made the playoff roster after being signed to a minor league deal in August and not promoted until a week or 2 later.

[rickh150]

17 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

It was in an article from a bit ago that they were considering calling up Chourio. I don’t have it in front of me though I’ll try to dig it up.

They would have had to add him to the 40 man and started his service time clock. Without an extension, that means potential super 2 eligibility and a loss of a year of control of a potential superstar player. Especially if their plan was to start him in the majors on OD. It’s also a hell of a thing to ask a 19 year old kid to make his major league debut off the bench in the postseason and be a difference maker over Winker. 

And if you really want to know whether he’s that good, just consult any mainstream prospect list where he’s consensus top 2 in the game. 

So a really good and soon to be great player, but still not good enough to be better than Winker in late season 2023. Or Chourio could have helped us, but we are too cheap to risk Super 2.?Also, doesn’t his service time clock stop if he starts the year in AAA, correct? 

Trying to defend Brewers late season moves is walking thin ice on a warm winter day. We desperately needed hitting, sparks off the bench…and another right handed bat with pop! And most on this board would have dumped Winker in June or July.

So the Brewers are paying this guy like he will be starting CF and 3rd hitter. So be it. Yet, they were not willing to bring up same guy last year, even for a month or two in playoff hunt and/or postseason, to help the team in a minor role among a merry go round of low bar hitting role players

[brewerfan82]

If the complaint is about Winker getting added to the playoff roster rather than Chourio, we're talking about 2 plate appearances... probably isn't a decision that needs to be over analyzed.

[Fear The Chorizo]

41 minutes ago, rickh150 said:

So a really good and soon to be great player, but still not good enough to be better than Winker in late season 2023. Or Chourio could have helped us, but we are too cheap to risk Super 2.?Also, doesn’t his service time clock stop if he starts the year in AAA, correct? 

Trying to defend Brewers late season moves is walking thin ice on a warm winter day. We desperately needed hitting, sparks off the bench…and another right handed bat with pop! And most on this board would have dumped Winker in June or July.

So the Brewers are paying this guy like he will be starting CF and 3rd hitter. So be it. Yet, they were not willing to bring up same guy last year, even for a month or two in playoff hunt and/or postseason, to help the team in a minor role among a merry go round of low bar hitting role players

They won't be paying Chourio like a middle of the order bat and starting  CF with his current contract extension for another 5-6 calendar years. Had they called up chourio last August, his current contract extension would include at least one fewer option year and likely would have been closer to double the total cost compared to what the current contract value is.

This hot stove rabbit hole makes zero sense, and I already regret venturing down it....but I can't help myself and would rather comment on this than reading the next article related to "could the Brewers trade Burnes to the Cubs for Ian Happ?"

[sveumrules]

16 minutes ago, rickh150 said:

So a really good and soon to be great player, but still not good enough to be better than Winker in late season 2023. Or Chourio could have helped us, but we are too cheap to risk Super 2.?Also, doesn’t his service time clock stop if he starts the year in AAA, correct? 

Trying to defend Brewers late season moves is walking thin ice on a warm winter day. We desperately needed hitting, sparks off the bench…and another right handed bat with pop! And most on this board would have dumped Winker in June or July.

So the Brewers are paying this guy like he will be starting CF and 3rd hitter. So be it. Yet, they were not willing to bring up same guy last year, even for a month or two in playoff hunt and/or postseason, to help the team in a minor role among a merry go round of low bar hitting role players

The Brewers went 35-20 from August 1st until the end of the season, 5th best in MLB. Their late season moves worked out pretty well.

Who was Jackson even going to play for anyway? Not Yelich. Taylor hit for a 138 wRC+ last two months, Canha was at 120 wRC+. Frelick’s 1.4 WAR was 4th on the team from his debut until the end of the season behind Contreras, Adames and Tyrone.

Any connection between the Chourio extension and Winker getting a pair of postseason PAs appears tenuous at best. Especially when everyone knows it should have been Hiura instead.

[BrewerFan]

22 hours ago, rickh150 said:

This is your mind inside of Arnold’s, I gather.  Just a bunch of guesses, unless you have seen comments from Arnold on this topic. Please share if you have and apologies if it is out there.

Personally, I don’t know how a month or two would have major service time ramifications.  He could have still started 2024 in the minors.

Money wise, if he did well in September/October, there would be major ramifications to the deal he just signed. Yet, the Brewers would have GLADLY paid the extra for another bat late in the season.

This is your mind inside of the Brewers FO I gather?

 

It's actually pretty obvious the Brewers were concerned about service time with no contract in place. And I doubt they'd "GLADLY paid the extra," for another late-season bat. The "extra," for 2 months of just major league average production at that point would have added a significant amount to the deal. 

I really don't believe you need Arnold to say they're concerned about service time with their prospects. It feels WAY too obvious. 

[BrewerFan]

22 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Well, he signed in early December and we were still playing in early October….so less than two months. 

He hit 3rd for the Brewers in December? The hell? There was a whole other season during the Winter Meetings and I missed it?

Damn...

22 hours ago, rickh150 said:

In general, Chourio’s really, really good to give him over $100 million but not really THAT good yet to outplay Winker (who also was living in the minors at season’s end) off the bench. Madness.

82M. Not over 100M. And he's 19, Winker got 2 ABs.

The real madness is that you're still complaining about an extension that was universally regarded as an exceptional deal for the Brewers. 

 

3 hours ago, rickh150 said:

So a really good and soon to be great player, but still not good enough to be better than Winker in late season 2023.

False. You've made this false dichatomy between Chourio and Winker. One is a 5-tool CFer who's 19 years old, the other was a former AS who was terrible with the Brewers last year...which is why he got just 2ABs in the post-season. This naivete where you just ignore service time, particularly as a small market team, I get having to explain it to someone who's not a fan, but...you don't get this?

By your logic, you'd have Misiorowski in the BP, Black at 1B, Gasser would have been up...just in the event they needed a long man who was a lefty(he was probably one of the 12 best pitchers). The year prior Wiemer, Frelick, they were both at least marginally better than Johnny Davis...could have been defensive replacements.

 

Or we exhibit a bit of common sense and realize that the Brewers can aim to achieve two things simultaneously. 

1-Win games

2-Develop players

When the impact is marginal at best, it's probably not a good idea to sacrifice the latter. It's pretty straight forward.

Throwing a 19-year-old prospect into a playoff race vs giving him another off-season to build up and get ready for the start of the season...while maintaining leverage in negotiations. I don't get how any of this is surprising. 

[brewcrewdue80]

Quote

Throwing a 19-year-old prospect into a playoff race vs giving him another off-season to build up and get ready for the start of the season...while maintaining leverage in negotiations. I don't get how any of this is surprising

I look forward to a Chourio with ML game experience for much or all of a season, vs tossed straight in to a playoff series.  They promoted Black to AAA, left handed with SB-OB skills that he is the one I'd argue should have been tossed in to the playoff roster simply because the speed baserunning skills.  Think the Royals made that work with a speedster back when they were in WS.  J? Something. Lemme look.  Was thinking Jarrod Dyson but it was Terrance Gore.  

[rickh150]

15 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

 

False. You've made this false dichatomy between Chourio and Winker. One is a 5-tool CFer who's 19 years old, the other was a former AS who was terrible with the Brewers last year...which is why he got just 2ABs in the post-season. This naivete where you just ignore service time, particularly as a small market team, I get having to explain it to someone who's not a fan, but...you don't get this?

By your logic, you'd have Misiorowski in the BP, Black at 1B, Gasser would have been up...just in the event they needed a long man who was a lefty(he was probably one of the 12 best pitchers). 

 

Take a breath. I'm not trying to be difficult. 

I'm just saying we could have had better players up in Sept. and October.  And these (Chourio, Black, Hiura, and Miz, if not injured) were the ones I was thinking.  And the Brewers obviously value Chourio MORE THAN ANYONE.  He could have been brought up in September and October, yes.  And yes, he could have hit DH.  He was an on fire hitter the second half.  And if Super Two or long term deal price was the only thing keeping him down, I absolutely hate that reasoning. As Mr. Miyagi once said in Kirate Kid II, "Small price..." for winning in the playoffs. And he, Chourio not Miyagi, could have started the year in AAA if worried about MLB playing clock.

Overall, I really do not like what we are doing with our bench over the last two seasons.  It is a dumpster fire.  And the DH position strategy is the big dumpster fire next to the bench one.  I want the best bats playing and coming in off the bench.  And no, showing our regular season record does not help the postseason record.  

And we didn't win a postseason game in October, and we didn't score much either.  We were a couple of big hits away from winning each game, though. Sure would have been nice to have a big bat or really any bat coming off our bench last year.

[rickh150]

It really didn't matter that Hiura hit over .900 OPS....he could have hit over 1.000 OPS and it wouldn't have mattered.  We're going with Winker. Winker is the one we are staying with.  And bat him #2 for half the season.

I digress, but my logic is that if the Brewers think this high of him now, they MUST have thought he could have at least helped them somewhat late last season!  The bar to take a few bats off the bench or even batting DH was super low.  And with the team being super high on Chourio, why not?  And we so needed a few big at bats, Sveum. Look at those playoff games.  A big at bat here or there....how about letting Chourio bat in Turang's spot with bases loaded in Game 1? If Brewers brass believes in him so much now, they had to have had belief in him a couple months ago to hit better than the awfulness we saw.  I just assumed they wanted to see more of him in the minors... or that they weren't comfortable with him yet as a hitter (ala Hiura).  If they like Chourio enough to give him that contract, they should have had him up in Sept./Oct.

 

[sveumrules]

17 minutes ago, rickh150 said:

I'm just saying we could have had better players up in Sept. and October.  And these (Chourio, Black, Hiura, and Miz, if not injured) were the ones I was thinking.  And the Brewers obviously value Chourio MORE THAN ANYONE.  He could have been brought up in September and October, yes.  And yes, he could have hit DH.  He was an on fire hitter the second half. 

Chourio was on fire in July at 388/447/718

For August and September he hit 277/326/434 in AA/AAA.

Likely those Aug/Sep numbers would have been considerably worse in MLB.

 

[BigFickEnergy]

Got my 11 jerseys in the mail today! It's a helluva day!

[BrewerFan]

4 hours ago, rickh150 said:

Take a breath. I'm not trying to be difficult. 

I'm breathing just fine. 

4 hours ago, rickh150 said:

I'm just saying we could have had better players up in Sept. and October.  And these (Chourio, Black, Hiura, and Miz, if not injured) were the ones I was thinking. 

Really? That's all you're saying? That's strange, because it seems like this ENTIRE thread has been about you complaining about them signing Chourio...and using the argument that they DIDN'T call him up as a strong point as to why they shouldn't have.

I included Misiorowski as an extreme and kinda ridiculous example and he's one of the players you actually wanted up? Do you really think having him as the MAYBE 5th best reliever is better than developing him as a starting pitcher?

4 hours ago, rickh150 said:

And if Super Two or long term deal price was the only thing keeping him down, I absolutely hate that reasoning.

And then when he's 25 and leaving, you're complaining about him leaving. 

4 hours ago, rickh150 said:

As Mr. Miyagi once said in Kirate Kid II, "Small price..."

Seriously? The Karate kid? LOL...alright...

[rickh150]

“Small price…”