Packers 2024 Off-Season Thread

[LouisEly]

9 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

December looks rough... 

We have a "home" game in Chicago but then the 49ers (can be break Shanahan's spell?), a short week to play the Dolphins, then another Thursday game at Detroit, and wrapping up at Seattle. 

At least the Thursday games are back-to-back so they get a week's rest between them, and at least both the game prior to Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving are at home.  Could be a lot worse.

The funny thing is that last night the Chicago Fox station's sports reporters were saying, "the season doesn't start until week 11, enough is enough!"  They are so sick of getting their arses kicked...

[young guns]

They are so pathetic. I saw a bears fan, I believe the year lovie was hired and might have been on LL, say he didn't care if they went 2-14 as long as those 2 were against the Packers.  My response is I dont care if we go 14-2 and both loses are against the bears.

[SeaBass]

58 minutes ago, young guns said:

They are so pathetic. I saw a bears fan, I believe the year lovie was hired and might have been on LL, say he didn't care if they went 2-14 as long as those 2 were against the Packers.  My response is I dont care if we go 14-2 and both loses are against the bears.

Packers fans used to say the same thing about the Bears when the rivalry was dominated by the Bears and the Packers were terrible. And we meant it. That's why some of us old guys still relish the rivalry even though it's been so lopsided for 30+ years, it was truly infuriating to lose so much against them. The Bears have been afterthoughts for so long the rivalry focus for the Packers has shifted to the Vikings. I, for one, love that and I'm sure it would rankle most Bears fans to hear it. It's the ultimate indignity.

[BrewerFan]

On 5/15/2024 at 4:22 PM, GAME05 said:

Goff makes me wonder if there's going to come a day when some sort of individual salary cap is put specifically on the quarterback position. A mid-tier QB getting $52M is obscene, and from the players union perspective, that's a lot less of the cap which can be spent on the rest of their players.

In all I think this is a bad deal by the Lions. If no salary cap, I wonder if it'll come to be that QBs are treated a little more like running backs where maybe they'll get one good contract but once they get into their mid-30s that it's thought of as better to dump the guy before he's too old and go with a first-rounder you'd have on the cheap for the next five years. How happy will Lions fans be when they have to shed Sewell or St. Brown for salary cap reasons?

I think you're underestimating Goff. over 9K passing yards, 59TDs(+4 in the NFCCG run last year) over the last two years.

He's just 29-years-old and that's just the going rate for a really good starting QB. He may not be top 5, but I think he's top 10 and I don't think the 4 years is a huge threat. He'll be 33 when they'll either extend him again or move on. Those are the prime years for a QB.

And they won't have to shed Sewell or St. Brown. They have both locked up to contract extensions already and Detroit's cap looks pretty clean. They still have 30M in space this year and a projected 70M under for '25. 

 

If you don't like Goff's...I'm gonna guess you're not gonna like the number Love comes in at! I think there's a good chance he's the highest-paid player going into this season. 

[BrewerFan]

On 5/16/2024 at 6:51 PM, LouisEly said:

At least the Thursday games are back-to-back so they get a week's rest between them, and at least both the game prior to Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving are at home.  Could be a lot worse.

The funny thing is that last night the Chicago Fox station's sports reporters were saying, "the season doesn't start until week 11, enough is enough!"  They are so sick of getting their arses kicked...

It's a tough stretch, but given who we knew was going to be on the schedule, I think it's about as balanced as they could have hoped for. I'd have liked to get Chicago before week 11 though. 

[homer]

Enagbare full go at OTAs. Avoided ACL surgery. Nice surprise!

[HarryDoyle]

Looks like Kraft is out until the start of training camp. Torn pec?

[BrewerFan]

43 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

Looks like Kraft is out until the start of training camp. Torn pec?

Tom tore his pec also.

Sure hope this isn't the new Hamstring for the Packers. Wonder if this has something to do with the new Strength and Conditioning Coach. Maybe they changed too much too fast? Maybe I'm wildly speculating and I probably shouldn't?

Who's to say(it's the 2nd one probably). 

At least those two will be back. Tom in time for the start of Camp, Kraft "if not by camp, then early into camp." 

 

So by that, you know Tom will miss most of camp and Kraft will be back by week 3.

[HarryDoyle]

7 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

Tom tore his pec also.

Sure hope this isn't the new Hamstring for the Packers. Wonder if this has something to do with the new Strength and Conditioning Coach. Maybe they changed too much too fast? Maybe I'm wildly speculating and I probably shouldn't?

Who's to say(it's the 2nd one probably). 

At least those two will be back. Tom in time for the start of Camp, Kraft "if not by camp, then early into camp." 

 

So by that, you know Tom will miss most of camp and Kraft will be back by week 3.

No need to put that in blue.

[Matt Breen]

19 hours ago, homer said:

Enagbare full go at OTAs. Avoided ACL surgery. Nice surprise!

That's great news. He's nice, solid rotational guy with some room to improve. 

I was a little surprised we didn't add any edge guys in the draft - and this explains that.

[CheezWizHed]

Agreed.  Probably makes sense as to why we didn't invest (even really in a solid UDFA) DE position this year.  Gary, Smith, VN, and Enagbare is a pretty solid DE position.  Moss seems a bit light as a DE, but maybe he gained weight or will be used in a rotating basis this year?

[BrewerFan]

20 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Agreed.  Probably makes sense as to why we didn't invest (even really in a solid UDFA) DE position this year.  Gary, Smith, VN, and Enagbare is a pretty solid DE position.  Moss seems a bit light as a DE, but maybe he gained weight or will be used in a rotating basis this year?

Moss? 

I'm thinking you mean Cox? Assuming you do...and I didn't miss something, he's lighter, but 250 is still well within the range for an edge. And in this system where they have less responsibility on outside contain(the LB on that side or the Safety often will) and they can just get up field, I don't think it's a huge issue.

Gotta see Cox show that explosiveness and functional strength. There are obviously plays he'll get beat being smaller, but that happened to Clay...who was a little smaller and played in the 3-4 where you have more gap responsibilities and you can't just get up-field in your gap. There are plenty of smaller edges out there. Nolan Smith wasn't bigger than Quay unless I'm mistaken. Guys like Reddick or...whoever. 

For the 5th guy in the rotation, I look at it like a 290LB DT. He's smaller, but he can still make up that difference.

 

Of all the guys I'm excited for though...I think Wyatt may be #1. This just suits him SOOO much better! It's a night and day difference...

[Sixtolezcano]

Tom tore his pectoral muscle during the off-season while bench pressing and had surgery about a month ago. Recovery time is estimated 8-12 weeks and should be back by mid-August.

[homer]

After watching Hafley's interviews/pressers and seeing what they did in the draft and free agency, if the Packers don't have a top 10 defense this year I am convinced they never will.

[CheezWizHed]

23 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Moss? 

I'm thinking you mean Cox? Assuming you do...and I didn't miss something, he's lighter, but 250 is still well within the range for an edge. And in this system where they have less responsibility on outside contain(the LB on that side or the Safety often will) and they can just get up field, I don't think it's a huge issue.

Gotta see Cox show that explosiveness and functional strength. There are obviously plays he'll get beat being smaller, but that happened to Clay...who was a little smaller and played in the 3-4 where you have more gap responsibilities and you can't just get up-field in your gap. There are plenty of smaller edges out there. Nolan Smith wasn't bigger than Quay unless I'm mistaken. Guys like Reddick or...whoever. 

For the 5th guy in the rotation, I look at it like a 290LB DT. He's smaller, but he can still make up that difference.

 

Of all the guys I'm excited for though...I think Wyatt may be #1. This just suits him SOOO much better! It's a night and day difference...

Yes, Cox... did I ever mention that I stink at names? 😅

Yes, 250lbs is small for a 4-3 edge (i.e. DE).  No Clay (nor Nolan, nor Reddick) is not the same as a 3-4 edge (i.e. OLB).  They play different gaps.  Reddick moved to the Jets and there are a lot of similar questions about him playing DE for them.  Likewise for Leonard Floyd and the 49ers. 

They might have more gap responsibilities, but they are also farther out.  Far fewer snaps against a G and more snaps against the TE/WR/RB on the outside. 

It isn't impossible for him to play 250lbs as a DE, but he pretty much has to be in obvious passing downs only unless he ends up being very "special" at defending the run. You tend to pick the "special" players as your examples, but Cox is an UDFA that hasn't shown much special to this point.  

As you say, for the 5th guy in the rotation, that isn't as much as a concern.  I wasn't comfortable at #4 and expecting him to put in significant NFL snaps this year.  My original point was relief that Enagbare was back, pushing Cox and similarly small UDFA backups down to 5th+ on the depth chart instead of 4th.  Frankly, unless Cox really busts out this year, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pack went with 4 DEs on the 53 man and put Cox on the PS again.  

[BrewerFan]

18 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Yes, 250lbs is small for a 4-3 edge (i.e. DE).  No Clay (nor Nolan, nor Reddick) is not the same as a 3-4 edge (i.e. OLB).  They play different gaps.  Reddick moved to the Jets and there are a lot of similar questions about him playing DE for them.  Likewise for Leonard Floyd and the 49ers. 

It's really not. 

Who is asking questions about Reddick playing DE? He's been playing DE the last several years. 73% of his snaps last year came at DE with the Eagles. Nolan Smith, played exclusively as a DE with the Eagles. They're both . His best careers have come as a DE. Philly runs a 4-3. He played 73% of his snaps at DE. Nolan Smith, again, he played DE. Neither played in a 3-4. 

Likewise with Leonard Floyd. He's coming off a 10.5 sack season as a 4-3 DE. You're using examples of guys who've not just played some DE, their best seasons have come as DEs.
Hell, Reddick was nearly out of the league until he asked to kick outside.

I think you have this outdated notion of 4-3 DEs being like Reggie, Bruce Smith, Richard Dent. Even though they were the outliers then, they were bigger. That was a totally different game.

Guys who currently play or recently played at a high level in 4-3 schemes as a DE;
Bryce Huff-250 The guy who's flipping places with Reddick, he's played DE his whole career.
Von Miller-245 one of the all-time greats and one of the all-time great duos when he played with DeMarcus Ware(255)
Brian Burns-250
DeMarcus Ware was a 255 DE
Will Anderson just was DROY and an AP as a DE who was 240 on a good day
Maxx Crosby- 255LB DE
Micah Parsons, maybe the best DE in the NFL right now, he's ~245(and he's closer to 235 in season as he's talked about keeping weight on). He played 87% of his snaps at DE.
You could do this all day and this is just with the elite DEs.
Robert Quinn-100+ snaps in his career, 245
Khalil Mack- 251 LBs coming into the league, AP and DPOY as a 4-3 DE his first couple years.
Ebukam-245 9.5 sacks last year in a 4-3
Jadaveon Clowney-255 LBs, been one of the best run-defending DEs during his career.

The top Edge in this draft, Dallas Turner. 6'3 240. Drafted by a 4-3 team a year after Will Anderson(who was a little smaller was also drafted to a 4-3 team and excelled both vs the run and the pass).

-Let's go back to what may have been the most DOMINANT DL in recent NFL history. The one that won not ONE, but TWO Super Bowls due to it's front 4. 

You had Michael Strahan, 255 and Osi Umenyiora, 255 pounds. Each were APs, Strahan won a DOPY, Osi led the Giants in sacks both seasons. That was, again, a 4-3.

I feel like I could keep going. There's a reason these players are referred to as EDGES coming out. It's because there's not really a prototype for a 4-3 vs a 3-4....mostly owed to the fact that they're interchangeable. How many players have gone from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and made the move seamlessly?
Khalil Mack, Joey Bosa(280 Joey Bosa), Von Miller, DeMarcus Wear, Clowney, JPP, Osi...teams don't care. 

It should be telling that the Packers ALREADY have in place probably the largest DE's...and they were all drafted to play a 3-4. So the idea that you can get by with smaller OLBer, but you need bigger DE's, it's an antiquated notion. 

For what it's worth, Cox weighed 259 at his Florida Pro-Day, and Enagbare is listed at 258, but let's go by Cox's listed weight. That's a 7LB difference. 

Again, we ALL want bigger, faster, stronger players. But when it comes to edge, MUCH more important than weight is bend, arm length, their first step, their hand fighting, how they can get inside and extend and then in the run game, it's anchor and disengage. If you can't do that, it doesn't matter if you're 240 or 260, you won't be playing.

 

Quote

They might have more gap responsibilities, but they are also farther out.  Far fewer snaps against a G and more snaps against the TE/WR/RB on the outside. 

No. If anything, 4-3 DEs are going to see FEWER reps vs the Guards. Most of them will come either when they stunt or if the Guard doesn't have anyone and he slides out and that's exceptionally rare. 

Let me try and show you cap responsibilities for a 4-3.

Left DE is playing a Wide9. If that's the 3-4, he's going to be lined up over the TE, not outside shoulder in running situations. But he's not dealing with the guard and he's specifically dealing with the TE.
That OLB, he's going to be head up on the TE and anticipating the Tackle to come out and he's not going to get upfield as a FIRST priority, he's going to try and set the Edge. That means engaging with the TE and if he releases the OT. The 4-3 Wide 9 is just rushing up field.

The 7 tech. Again, now dealing with the Guard. This is why I was trying to explain why Slaton was still an integral player in this 4-3. He's the 1 tech. Not the 0, not straight over the C, but on that A(or 1) gap. 

They're not dealing with Guards(and especially not in Hafley's scheme which has so many simulated pressures, but even aside from that). 

Now if this was a 3-4, you'd have the NT over the C, the 3 tech(Clark from last year) he'd slide out another cap and he'd be on the inside shoulder of the OT and the 3 tech would be lined up over the guard on the left as we're looking at it.

But again, the key is what is their responsibility? To hold the point, occupy the OL and let the LBers fire if it's a run or then disengage and get up field if it's a pass. 

 

Quote

It isn't impossible for him to play 250lbs as a DE, but he pretty much has to be in obvious passing downs only unless he ends up being very "special" at defending the run. You tend to pick the "special" players as your examples, but Cox is an UDFA that hasn't shown much special to this point.  

I tend to pick 15-20 examples of starters as I don't have every 2nd, 3rd, much less the 5th guy on a depth chart off memory. You tend to use this 1990s ideology because you compare the "average sizes" of the Packers fronts from the 90s Super Bowl teams to those from now. 

I'll ignore that Cox was NOT a UDFA because of his talent, he was an UDFA because he was kicked out of both UF and UT in College. He was a 5 star recruit who dominated, or that he weighed 259 at his pro-day, and that Enagbare is listed at 258 and I'll just go with the idea that Enagbare is big enough at 7 pounds heavier than Cox and that 250 pounds is not big enough(you also made the claim that there were questions about Hassan Reddick playing DE in the 4-3 when that's what he's played for 3 years and that's where he excelled).

 

And I admittedly have gotten a bit frustrated because no matter how much evidence, you keep going back to this idea that 4-3 DEs are bigger like it's back in the day when you used to have an anchor and a speed end...and you ran the ball 55+% of the time. This kinda started with the idea that Slaton was "too big" for the 4-3....which was really confusing as you started this whole discussion comparing the Gilbert Brown Packers. Using George Koonce and Wayne Simmons as your reason for why hey 'like' small LBers now. This was in the Preson Smith discussion when you suggested he might play LBer...

Either way, that's not the case anymore with shifting and not one single team with designed runs on more than 48% of the time and the majority at a 60/40 split, pass to run, you CANNOT have a designed Elephant end and a weak side end as they'll just move the TE over pre-snap. Willie McGinest was the last real "Elephant," end and that's back when the Pats won their 1st SB and then the Colts got the illegal contact rules changed and that was the final shot the passing game needed to become far more prevalent. 

But KC-Mike Danna 257-Starter
AZ-BJ Ojulari 243
Dallas-Dorance Armstrong Jr.255(3nd most snaps at DE), DeMarcus Lawrence, a 251 LB at the combine and 2nd rd pick as well. Top3  DEs on Dallas. Sam Wiliams was their largest DE coming out at 261.
Wash-Toohill became their #1 DE with KJ Hill the #4(#2 after the trades). 253 and 255. Armstrong Jr now their starter on one side.
Philly-Covered the Eales Reddick led the team in snaps at DE. Drafted Nolan Smith to get snaps there. 
Cleveland-Ogbonnia Okoronkwo as their #3 at 250
Texans-Covered them. Jerry Hughes(254), Will Anderson(243), Sanders 248
Det-Charles Harris(250), James Houston-245

I could also go and start listing out 3-4 LBs(I'd start with ours from last year, go with Judon, Autry, Hoecht, Bosa(I know you don't like outliers). 

 

22 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

As you say, for the 5th guy in the rotation, that isn't as much as a concern.  I wasn't comfortable at #4 and expecting him to put in significant NFL snaps this year.  My original point was relief that Enagbare was back, pushing Cox and similarly small UDFA backups down to 5th+ on the depth chart instead of 4th.  Frankly, unless Cox really busts out this year, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pack went with 4 DEs on the 53 man and put Cox on the PS again.  

Sure...I won't be shocked to see him back on the PS this year until he's activated. 

I would guess that the Packers had some degree of confidence in him as they weren't certain they'd avoided major injury until recently(they hoped and he was rehabbing) and Edge is just a position they prioritize.

 

My larger point was an edge is an edge. We'll be returning the same top 5 guys this year and we're going from a 3-4 to a 4-3. 

We had bigger OLBers than the Cowboys, Browns, and Eagles had DEs(by quite a bit).

The size range for edges of ANY type of generally 245(maybe a bit lower) to ~260...with some freak athlete outliers and most of them aren't much bigger. Bosa(Nick) is nearly 20 pounds lighter and plays in a 4-3 vs his 3-4 brother. 

 

Reddick, Huff, two players that switched teams would both be 'undersized,' 

When guys like Jared Verse, Will Anderson, Dallas Turner, Latu to Kneeland come out, teams aren't taking them off the board because they run a 4-3 vs a 3-4 or vice versa. 

 

I'd actually argued with the 4 man front being played 80+% of the time, a larger 3-4 OLB matters now more than it EVER has before. 

[OldHeidelberg]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40202788/how-packers-christian-watson-hamstring-issues-eric-stokes

 

Man, this offense could be the best in the NFL if Watson can stay on the field. I usually roll my eyes at offseason articles like this but great to hear Watson going full bore and looking great in camp. Hard to overstate how excited I am about this team and the upcoming season. Fingers crossed on the new D scheme and coaching staff but I am a believer there too. 

 

 

[CheezWizHed]

10 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

It's really not. 

Who is asking questions about Reddick playing DE? He's been playing DE the last several years. 73% of his snaps last year came at DE with the Eagles. Nolan Smith, played exclusively as a DE with the Eagles. They're both . His best careers have come as a DE. Philly runs a 4-3. He played 73% of his snaps at DE. Nolan Smith, again, he played DE. Neither played in a 3-4. 

Likewise with Leonard Floyd. He's coming off a 10.5 sack season as a 4-3 DE. You're using examples of guys who've not just played some DE, their best seasons have come as DEs.
Hell, Reddick was nearly out of the league until he asked to kick outside.

I think you have this outdated notion of 4-3 DEs being like Reggie, Bruce Smith, Richard Dent. Even though they were the outliers then, they were bigger. That was a totally different game.

Guys who currently play or recently played at a high level in 4-3 schemes as a DE;
Bryce Huff-250 The guy who's flipping places with Reddick, he's played DE his whole career.
Von Miller-245 one of the all-time greats and one of the all-time great duos when he played with DeMarcus Ware(255)
Brian Burns-250
DeMarcus Ware was a 255 DE
Will Anderson just was DROY and an AP as a DE who was 240 on a good day
Maxx Crosby- 255LB DE
Micah Parsons, maybe the best DE in the NFL right now, he's ~245(and he's closer to 235 in season as he's talked about keeping weight on). He played 87% of his snaps at DE.
You could do this all day and this is just with the elite DEs.
Robert Quinn-100+ snaps in his career, 245
Khalil Mack- 251 LBs coming into the league, AP and DPOY as a 4-3 DE his first couple years.
Ebukam-245 9.5 sacks last year in a 4-3
Jadaveon Clowney-255 LBs, been one of the best run-defending DEs during his career.

The top Edge in this draft, Dallas Turner. 6'3 240. Drafted by a 4-3 team a year after Will Anderson(who was a little smaller was also drafted to a 4-3 team and excelled both vs the run and the pass).

-Let's go back to what may have been the most DOMINANT DL in recent NFL history. The one that won not ONE, but TWO Super Bowls due to it's front 4. 

You had Michael Strahan, 255 and Osi Umenyiora, 255 pounds. Each were APs, Strahan won a DOPY, Osi led the Giants in sacks both seasons. That was, again, a 4-3.

I feel like I could keep going. There's a reason these players are referred to as EDGES coming out. It's because there's not really a prototype for a 4-3 vs a 3-4....mostly owed to the fact that they're interchangeable. How many players have gone from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and made the move seamlessly?
Khalil Mack, Joey Bosa(280 Joey Bosa), Von Miller, DeMarcus Wear, Clowney, JPP, Osi...teams don't care. 

It should be telling that the Packers ALREADY have in place probably the largest DE's...and they were all drafted to play a 3-4. So the idea that you can get by with smaller OLBer, but you need bigger DE's, it's an antiquated notion. 

For what it's worth, Cox weighed 259 at his Florida Pro-Day, and Enagbare is listed at 258, but let's go by Cox's listed weight. That's a 7LB difference. 

Again, we ALL want bigger, faster, stronger players. But when it comes to edge, MUCH more important than weight is bend, arm length, their first step, their hand fighting, how they can get inside and extend and then in the run game, it's anchor and disengage. If you can't do that, it doesn't matter if you're 240 or 260, you won't be playing.

 

No. If anything, 4-3 DEs are going to see FEWER reps vs the Guards. Most of them will come either when they stunt or if the Guard doesn't have anyone and he slides out and that's exceptionally rare. 

Let me try and show you cap responsibilities for a 4-3.

Left DE is playing a Wide9. If that's the 3-4, he's going to be lined up over the TE, not outside shoulder in running situations. But he's not dealing with the guard and he's specifically dealing with the TE.
That OLB, he's going to be head up on the TE and anticipating the Tackle to come out and he's not going to get upfield as a FIRST priority, he's going to try and set the Edge. That means engaging with the TE and if he releases the OT. The 4-3 Wide 9 is just rushing up field.

The 7 tech. Again, now dealing with the Guard. This is why I was trying to explain why Slaton was still an integral player in this 4-3. He's the 1 tech. Not the 0, not straight over the C, but on that A(or 1) gap. 

They're not dealing with Guards(and especially not in Hafley's scheme which has so many simulated pressures, but even aside from that). 

Now if this was a 3-4, you'd have the NT over the C, the 3 tech(Clark from last year) he'd slide out another cap and he'd be on the inside shoulder of the OT and the 3 tech would be lined up over the guard on the left as we're looking at it.

But again, the key is what is their responsibility? To hold the point, occupy the OL and let the LBers fire if it's a run or then disengage and get up field if it's a pass. 

 

I tend to pick 15-20 examples of starters as I don't have every 2nd, 3rd, much less the 5th guy on a depth chart off memory. You tend to use this 1990s ideology because you compare the "average sizes" of the Packers fronts from the 90s Super Bowl teams to those from now. 

I'll ignore that Cox was NOT a UDFA because of his talent, he was an UDFA because he was kicked out of both UF and UT in College. He was a 5 star recruit who dominated, or that he weighed 259 at his pro-day, and that Enagbare is listed at 258 and I'll just go with the idea that Enagbare is big enough at 7 pounds heavier than Cox and that 250 pounds is not big enough(you also made the claim that there were questions about Hassan Reddick playing DE in the 4-3 when that's what he's played for 3 years and that's where he excelled).

 

And I admittedly have gotten a bit frustrated because no matter how much evidence, you keep going back to this idea that 4-3 DEs are bigger like it's back in the day when you used to have an anchor and a speed end...and you ran the ball 55+% of the time. This kinda started with the idea that Slaton was "too big" for the 4-3....which was really confusing as you started this whole discussion comparing the Gilbert Brown Packers. Using George Koonce and Wayne Simmons as your reason for why hey 'like' small LBers now. This was in the Preson Smith discussion when you suggested he might play LBer...

Either way, that's not the case anymore with shifting and not one single team with designed runs on more than 48% of the time and the majority at a 60/40 split, pass to run, you CANNOT have a designed Elephant end and a weak side end as they'll just move the TE over pre-snap. Willie McGinest was the last real "Elephant," end and that's back when the Pats won their 1st SB and then the Colts got the illegal contact rules changed and that was the final shot the passing game needed to become far more prevalent. 

But KC-Mike Danna 257-Starter
AZ-BJ Ojulari 243
Dallas-Dorance Armstrong Jr.255(3nd most snaps at DE), DeMarcus Lawrence, a 251 LB at the combine and 2nd rd pick as well. Top3  DEs on Dallas. Sam Wiliams was their largest DE coming out at 261.
Wash-Toohill became their #1 DE with KJ Hill the #4(#2 after the trades). 253 and 255. Armstrong Jr now their starter on one side.
Philly-Covered the Eales Reddick led the team in snaps at DE. Drafted Nolan Smith to get snaps there. 
Cleveland-Ogbonnia Okoronkwo as their #3 at 250
Texans-Covered them. Jerry Hughes(254), Will Anderson(243), Sanders 248
Det-Charles Harris(250), James Houston-245

I could also go and start listing out 3-4 LBs(I'd start with ours from last year, go with Judon, Autry, Hoecht, Bosa(I know you don't like outliers). 

 

Sure...I won't be shocked to see him back on the PS this year until he's activated. 

I would guess that the Packers had some degree of confidence in him as they weren't certain they'd avoided major injury until recently(they hoped and he was rehabbing) and Edge is just a position they prioritize.

 

My larger point was an edge is an edge. We'll be returning the same top 5 guys this year and we're going from a 3-4 to a 4-3. 

We had bigger OLBers than the Cowboys, Browns, and Eagles had DEs(by quite a bit).

The size range for edges of ANY type of generally 245(maybe a bit lower) to ~260...with some freak athlete outliers and most of them aren't much bigger. Bosa(Nick) is nearly 20 pounds lighter and plays in a 4-3 vs his 3-4 brother. 

 

Reddick, Huff, two players that switched teams would both be 'undersized,' 

When guys like Jared Verse, Will Anderson, Dallas Turner, Latu to Kneeland come out, teams aren't taking them off the board because they run a 4-3 vs a 3-4 or vice versa. 

 

I'd actually argued with the 4 man front being played 80+% of the time, a larger 3-4 OLB matters now more than it EVER has before. 

Look, I like discussion, but seriously learn to summarize.  TLDR. 

Agreeing to disagree since we clearly don't see eye to eye on DT, DE or LBs in this new system.  

[BrewerFan]

On 5/25/2024 at 4:25 PM, CheezWizHed said:

Look, I like discussion, but seriously learn to summarize.  TLDR. 

Agreeing to disagree since we clearly don't see eye to eye on DT, DE or LBs in this new system.  

Eh, you said I cherry-picked examples...so I picked the whole bushel...not just guys like Hassan Reddick.

And the "difference" is you believe they play with bigger DEs though their DEs will be the same as their OLB, so not really a change(not sure the difference of opinion at DT other than you think Slaton might be gone due to his size) and at LBer...IDK, I guess size again. 

We'll see I guess.

[BrewerFan]

On 5/25/2024 at 7:34 AM, OldHeidelberg said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40202788/how-packers-christian-watson-hamstring-issues-eric-stokes

 

Man, this offense could be the best in the NFL if Watson can stay on the field. I usually roll my eyes at offseason articles like this but great to hear Watson going full bore and looking great in camp. Hard to overstate how excited I am about this team and the upcoming season. Fingers crossed on the new D scheme and coaching staff but I am a believer there too. 

 

 

The defense also. If they got those two cleaned up, each are healthy and they can get back to playing regularly, it's bigger for the offense, but another long, fast corner who excels in exactly what they WANT to do more of, that's going to be big also.

The offense was really good without Watson. With Watson they were good. Wicks, Reed, Doubs, the LBers, I think Melton is really good. But Watson is just clearing out the field. I love the role Love has taken as well. It's going to be a fun team.

OL is the biggest question mark and that's down to Walker and if he can hold off Morgan and if not, can Morgan play as well or be an upgrade over JRJ. 

The new Era of Packers FB looks like it'll be a fun one...and how fitting would it be to pick 32nd at the draft next year IN GB?

 

[CheezWizHed]

Much has been touted this year about the "no #1 WR" concept on the Packers, but there are only so many balls that can go around.  So, while there might not be a #1, there will eventually be something of a pecking order.  The WR development this year could be very interesting. 

Watson - Probably the game-changer of the group when healthy.  This was most evident in 2022-23 when playing with Rodgers.  When Watson was in the game, the underneath routes for others opened up; without Watson, everyone moved up 5 yards and dared us to go deep.  He was expected to break out last year, but injuries sidelined him again.  Still don't know what he can do with intermediate routes.  Hands might be the most questionable of the group, but he is the biggest (literally) TD target among WRs.

Doubs - Overplayed his draft position as a rookie with a mature approach to the offense, but didn't really grow last year.  I was expecting more of a 2nd year jump, but he really just plateaued. Maybe he is already maxed out? Everything about him is pretty average, except his above average hands.  Every team needs a good possession WR to ensure those drive moving 1st downs. 

Reed - Became Love's goto WR last year.  And for a time was nearly the only WR healthy and productive.  Reminds me a bit of a poor-man's JJ. Will be interesting to see him make the second year jump.

Wicks - A real dark-horse candidate with maybe the biggest variation between possible outcomes.  A bit average in size/speed (like Doubs), but his footwork seems like a major differentiator for him.  You don't need to be a burner to get open if the CB is going the wrong way.  Really seemed to click with Love last season too. 

Melton - Seems like a Reed clone size wise.  Really came out of nowhere last year and clicked with Love.  No one was paying attention to him and he made them pay.  Seems like that ascension has continued this offseason to prove his 2023 season wasn't a fluke. Both he and Reed (but maybe a bit more from Melton) have added to the deep game to ensure it wasn't just Watson opening up the underneath game. 

Toure - Had his opportunities but seems a bit limited to running go routes.  Doesn't seem to bring much to the short/intermediate route games.  I tend to think he won't make this roster. 

Heath - A preseason darling that pretty much vanished in the regular season.  Queued up to be the Lazard replacement - big, blocking WR that will catch the short/intermediate stuff.  Maybe he takes off in that role this year (it took Lazard a couple years to get there), but stiff competition to make it this year. 

DuBose - Major question mark has he was injured in TC last year.  Could be looked at as a rookie this year (since we didn't draft one), but should already know the offense.  Wouldn't stun me to be the 6th WR on the 53-man - probably a fight between he and Heath. 

Not worth commenting on the rest.  The top 5 spots are all but wrapped up.  The 6th is there, but Heath and DuBose have a pretty good lead at this point.

As for this year's "#1 WR" (i.e. the one with the most plays and/or targets), I still think Watson has the best chance... if healthy.   Otherwise, it wouldn't shock me to see Wicks up there. 

[OldHeidelberg]

Watson for sure has #1 potential and really has played like it when completely healthy. He isn't as effective at 80-90% coming back from the hammy's though which compounds the missed games. Doubs did seem to plateau after his rookie year but did come on late season and in the playoffs so there may still be some upside. I think Watson and Doubs are #1 and #2 in TD's from their draft class which says a lot considering how many games Watson has missed. I know I am not alone in thinking Wicks may end up the best of them all. Add the 2 TE's and really as exciting a group of young receivers as we have ever had, I can't even think of a group that compares.

[LouisEly]

Maybe it's a good thing that they don't have a true #1.  That way other teams don't know who to double or shade coverage towards. 

[bjkrautk]

The #1 receiver in the Packers offense, regardless of personnel, is the guy who's open.  My frustration with late-years Rodgers was the unwillingness to get the ball to the open man, in hopes that Davante or Aaron Jones would come open late.  Keeping the offense high-tempo was the best part of Year 1 for Jordan Love.

[homer]

26 minutes ago, bjkrautk said:

The #1 receiver in the Packers offense, regardless of personnel, is the guy who's open.  My frustration with late-years Rodgers was the unwillingness to get the ball to the open man, in hopes that Davante or Aaron Jones would come open late.  Keeping the offense high-tempo was the best part of Year 1 for Jordan Love.

Crazy how much talent they have on that side of the ball. In addition to the WRs you have 2 TEs with a ton of potential, and then Jacobs and MarShawn Lloyd at RB.