NIL/Transfer Portal

[BrewerFan]

13 hours ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

The ability to transfer w/o having to sit a year applied to grads, that started about...........6, 7 years ago? Now it's immediate eligibility for everyone. I don't think there was ever a separate stipulation for a coach leaving, although it makes no difference now. 

Since the lawsuit you referenced there hasn't been anything else I'm aware of. Not really much left for the NCAA to lose. I suppose soon someone at Ball State will go through an 8-23 season averaging 19 PPG, want to transfer to a team that made the tourney & play immediately, and be allowed to do so, I'm being sarcastic, but seriously, is that next?

You could transfer once without sitting out(unless the coach that recruited you left). That was the NCAA rule. That was challenged and an injunction blocked the NCAA from making kids who were transferring a 2nd time from being ineligible. That was just this past year.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/ncaa-agrees-to-temporary-injunction-granting-eligibility-for-multi-time-transfers-until-end-of-spring-sports/

[LouisEly]

Angel reportedly canceled his visit to Duke.  Certainly increases his chances of coming to UW.

[Jim French Stepstool]

9 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

You could transfer once without sitting out(unless the coach that recruited you left). That was the NCAA rule. That was challenged and an injunction blocked the NCAA from making kids who were transferring a 2nd time from being ineligible. That was just this past year.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/ncaa-agrees-to-temporary-injunction-granting-eligibility-for-multi-time-transfers-until-end-of-spring-sports/

The legalese of this stuff often bores me to tears, so I don't always keep on top of it.

Thanks for the info.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I mean, we've definitely hit the Wild West point here. In the next few years, there will probably be a legal framework and maybe some sort of collective bargaining, but, until then, there will be constant roster churn.

Honestly, for football, this system makes some sort of sense. The health risks are SO high (and, with CTE, filled with so many unknowns) that players should be looking to max out on as much short-term cash as they can.

Other sports? Not so much. But it's football's world, and everyone else is just living in it. As a basketball program, you just have to expect to have to re-recruit your entire roster every year. Maybe you can target guys you think you can keep because of their makeup or history or whatever, but that's Chuckie, and you never know who's going to offer life-changing money for a one-year commitment. Unless the cash dries up (which it won't, as long as there are rich people who want to build little campus empires), that's always going to be a possibility.

As for Chuckie, I get it. He's an elite college defender. That's not a skill that's going to get him paid as a basketball player. If it's 800K to play for a CBB-mad city, there's clearly a draw there.

On the bright side, I've not seen Gard have big talent for developing players, so I'm not sure this impacts UW as much as it would have long ago. They've proven fairly nimble. At the same time, now they really have to adapt and find talent that they can get to gel defensively. Hope they're up to it.

[Samurai Bucky]

Fidler is going to Michigan State

 

[Jim French Stepstool]

One the one hand it's annoying to see schools sign this guy & that guy while UW is, so far, fruitless. But the portal had something like 1500-1600 players entered like 3-4 days ago. It's now around 2000. Right now I don't know who they're focusing on (Along with Fidler, Angel & Hunter are going elsewhere & Trimble has decided to stay at UNC) but they're active AFA making calls & setting up visits.

[stoutdude04]

Reports coming out that Wisconsin is struggling in the portal because they are actually following 'the rules' with regards to the NIL(whatever that means).  

Also a report is out that Storr had been in communication with one or two other schools after his hot start this year.  I think we can all agree, talking to players during the season should absolutely not be happening.  Supposedly he had a deal in place with Illinois as early as February.

Just rumors, but take it for what its worth.

[RedStickBrew]

34 minutes ago, stoutdude04 said:

Reports coming out that Wisconsin is struggling in the portal because they are actually following 'the rules' with regards to the NIL(whatever that means).  

Also a report is out that Storr had been in communication with one or two other schools after his hot start this year.  I think we can all agree, talking to players during the season should absolutely not be happening.  Supposedly he had a deal in place with Illinois as early as February.

Just rumors, but take it for what its worth.

I believe it just means UW only pays players through their structured NIL process right now. Whereas other programs are essentially offering upfront money to players through individual donors. 

[Jim French Stepstool]

44 minutes ago, stoutdude04 said:

Reports coming out that Wisconsin is struggling in the portal because they are actually following 'the rules' with regards to the NIL(whatever that means).  

Also a report is out that Storr had been in communication with one or two other schools after his hot start this year.  I think we can all agree, talking to players during the season should absolutely not be happening.  Supposedly he had a deal in place with Illinois as early as February.

Just rumors, but take it for what its worth.

The way I understand it, if you do this properly you present a recruit with financial opportunities that can be set up for you, and what they would pay. If the info I've heard is correct, during the actual season this might amount to a time commitment more-or-less what you or I might put towards one full week of work (if you ask me that's where the whole thing already goes off the rails. I'd rather the schools not even be involved with it. Simply let student-athletes explore their own opportunities & hire a representative if they'd like). Anyway, what's apparently happening is guys are visiting a school, sometimes (usually?) with a dollar amount in mind & expecting to have a check cut for them if they sign. And many are getting just that.

Knowing Storr, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a deal with Illinois in February. The reason I'm not surprised is he didn't go there. That would be in keeping with a guy who hasn't been with the same team in successive years since Jr high.

It's a field day for the schools that have cheated for years, because they're good at it & can go into hyperdrive because they know the NCAA is in no mood to try to penalize anyone after all the court battles they've lost.

[Oxy]

I hope that Gard and staff has more than adequate communication with the Varsity Collective and $$$ players so that recruits/transfers can discuss things ASAP with non-University employees who can and will take care of their needs.

Sometimes it seems like there is a disconnect between the Coaching staff and the $$$.  This isn't a bad thing, since the coaching staff SHOULD be worried about basketball, but as long as there is a quick and fluent communication channel, things SHOULD work out okay...

I have faith this is the case, since it seems like common sense...  but... as an alum, common sense isn't always common in Madison.

[MrTPlush]

18 hours ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

The way I understand it, if you do this properly you present a recruit with financial opportunities that can be set up for you, and what they would pay. If the info I've heard is correct, during the actual season this might amount to a time commitment more-or-less what you or I might put towards one full week of work (if you ask me that's where the whole thing already goes off the rails. I'd rather the schools not even be involved with it. Simply let student-athletes explore their own opportunities & hire a representative if they'd like). Anyway, what's apparently happening is guys are visiting a school, sometimes (usually?) with a dollar amount in mind & expecting to have a check cut for them if they sign. And many are getting just that.

Knowing Storr, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a deal with Illinois in February. The reason I'm not surprised is he didn't go there. That would be in keeping with a guy who hasn't been with the same team in successive years since Jr high.

It's a field day for the schools that have cheated for years, because they're good at it & can go into hyperdrive because they know the NCAA is in no mood to try to penalize anyone after all the court battles they've lost.

What does past supposed cheating have to do with anything? You just sound bitter the Badgers keep crying poor and looking for the next 'poor me' excuse. 

Badgers like to hype up their NIL money and how it has tripled year over year, yet here we are....Chucky Hepburn of all people is leaving and found it to be a waste of time to even ask the Badgers if they want to match an offer. 

[LouisEly]

30 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Badgers like to hype up their NIL money and how it has tripled year over year, yet here we are....Chucky Hepburn of all people is leaving and found it to be a waste of time to even ask the Badgers if they want to match an offer. 

I think that says a lot more about Hepburn than UW.

UW likes to distribute NIL somewhat equally among players.  Hepburn was apparently offered $700K-$800K by someone.  UW's BB NIL is ~$2.5M.  If UW matches... what do the other players want?  What does Blackwell want?  Crowl?  Freitag?  Any transfers coming in?

One player getting a lot more than the others - and that player isn't a superstar - creates a lot of issues in the locker room.

[LouisEly]

6 hours ago, Oxy said:

I hope that Gard and staff has more than adequate communication with the Varsity Collective and $$$ players so that recruits/transfers can discuss things ASAP with non-University employees who can and will take care of their needs.

They do,  They communicate weekly about who are the top priorities.

The issue goes all the way to the top at UW.  Above Gard, above McIntosh.  They insist on playing by the rules and kids getting on campus before giving out any $.  Other schools are writing a check when the kid signs. 

[MrTPlush]

28 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

One player getting a lot more than the others - and that player isn't a superstar - creates a lot of issues in the locker room.

I don't know if that is the case. These players want what they want. Either Crowl and Co. are happy with what they are personally getting or they aren't. Is Hepburn getting $750k going to make Crowl demand the same or he is leaving? I doubt that...if that was the case he would already have one foot out the door as is. If Crowl doesn't want to leave to get $750k that is his own problem then. It is a free market now with free agency. If you don't want to move schools, have fun with a team friendly NIL figure then. 

 

[homer]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

What does past supposed cheating have to do with anything? You just sound bitter the Badgers keep crying poor and looking for the next 'poor me' excuse. 

Badgers like to hype up their NIL money and how it has tripled year over year, yet here we are....Chucky Hepburn of all people is leaving and found it to be a waste of time to even ask the Badgers if they want to match an offer. 

Gard said they budgeted 3x but the NIL numbers are up 5x. 

It's kind of fascinating from a purely economic/free market standpoint. But it sucks donkey as a fan and is untenable, IMO, long term.  

 

[LouisEly]

41 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

I don't know if that is the case.

It absolutely is, in the case where one player isn't much "better"/more valuable/more minutes/etc. than the other, according to sources very close to the program.  If your teammate, and someone who got the same amount of minutes as you, suddenly got 5x what you were getting, how would you feel and what would you do?

41 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Is Hepburn getting $750k going to make Crowl demand the same or he is leaving? I doubt that...if that was the case he would already have one foot out the door as is.

That's because Crowl has integrity, as does Gard and UW.  He doesn't have one foot out the door because the system they have in place has been relatively fair and it is what he has been told it would be.  When the system becomes different from what he has been told would be the case, that creates cognitive dissonance and will change things.

There is a story about Nigel Hayes and a time when he was with a bunch of other CBB players from other schools.  Someone asked the group to raise their hand if what they were told during recruitment was what they experienced in reality.   Hayes was the only person who raised his hand.  That's how UW chooses to operate.

Isaac Lindsey had his scholarship revoked at UNLV because they brought in what Otzelberger thought was better players.  When UW had one too many BB scholarships promised, they moved Lindsey to a NIL deal equal to his scholarship.  That's how UW chooses to operate.

 

41 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

It is a free market now with free agency. If you don't want to move schools, have fun with a team friendly NIL figure then.

It is a free market.  Crowl is free to do what he chooses, as is UW.  So stop criticizing UW because they choose to operate with integrity.

 

[MrTPlush]

23 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

It is a free market.  Crowl is free to do what he chooses, as is UW.  So stop criticizing UW because they choose to operate with integrity.

 

I wouldn't call evenly distributing NIL money operating with integrity. At least not in a sense that you are inferring the alternative is operating without integrity. 

And let's not kid ourselves. If a bunch of boosters came forward and offered $750k to bring back Hepburn, Gard would have been in a brinks truck to his dorm room. The Badgers don't have Storr and Hepburn back in fold because they can't afford them and still fill out their roster. Crowl is still in fold because he probably can't double/triple his salary leaving. If he could, he would have probably darted too. I doubt he is staying because the NIL distribution is 'fair'. 

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

31 minutes ago, homer said:

Gard said they budgeted 3x but the NIL numbers are up 5x. 

It's kind of fascinating from a purely economic/free market standpoint. But it sucks donkey as a fan and is untenable, IMO, long term.  

 

Yeah, there are some really cool game theory questions going on in terms of all these individual choices.

Essentially, this is an unregulated free market right now, which means it's fun as heck to study from a theoretical perspective but also maybe helps fans see that markets are usually regulated for a reason, as there are clear downsides.

[Jim French Stepstool]

7 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

What does past supposed cheating have to do with anything? You just sound bitter the Badgers keep crying poor and looking for the next 'poor me' excuse. 

Badgers like to hype up their NIL money and how it has tripled year over year, yet here we are....Chucky Hepburn of all people is leaving and found it to be a waste of time to even ask the Badgers if they want to match an offer. 

Because at many places the structure to pay players is in place & has been for a long time. Makes sense they'd be better at it.

Compared to most D-1 schools out there they're nowhere near poor. And I've never heard anyone in the administration claiming it. I'm bitter about the changes re NIL & the portal, period.

Their NIL funds HAVE grown handsomely (I don't know if they've tripled. If that's what they claim, so be it). Pretty sure they never said it's tripled 'year over year'. If it has it would probably be 8 digits by now.

If Hepburn deemed it a waste of time that's his business. He previously agreed to an increase in his pay for 24-25 after the season ended, so it's a bad look IMO. But, no rules. If his thinking was that they aren't going to match 800 grand anyway, he's right.

Disappointing but not totally surprising they've struck out so far. The people they've targeted are pretty heavily sought after by people with money. And their philosophy is they aren't putting an inordinate amount into one guy. That became pretty evident when Angel spurned Duke, then all of a sudden Oregon appeared.

 

[MrTPlush]

4 minutes ago, Jim French Stepstool said:

Their NIL funds HAVE grown handsomely (I don't know if they've tripled. If that's what they claim, so be it). Pretty sure they never said it's tripled year over year. If it has it would probably be close to 8 digits by now.

Gard claimed they tripled theirs, but NIL overall has 5x. I believe that was in reference prior to last year till now...but who knows.

His 3x comment is probably an exaggeration and the 5x is probably him just pulling a number out of his butt that is bigger than 3x to say they are worse off than before. I doubt there is any knowledge or research for him to come to that conclusion. 

At least that is how I translate that.

 

[Jim French Stepstool]

29 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Gard claimed they tripled theirs, but NIL overall has 5x. I believe that was in reference prior to last year till now...but who knows.

His 3x comment is probably an exaggeration and the 5x is probably him just pulling a number out of his butt that is bigger than 3x to say they are worse off than before. I doubt there is any knowledge or research for him to come to that conclusion. 

At least that is how I translate that.

 

The 5x claim is impossible to substantiate w/o knowing what the original # is. So like you said, who knows?

I think the 3x over the previous year is.........let me say feasible. But whatever they can do that they think will encourage contributions, that's how they'll cook it. It's an arms race w/no rules.

[LouisEly]

6 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

. Crowl is still in fold because he probably can't double/triple his salary leaving. If he could, he would have probably darted too.

I like how much you use the term "probably" (and "guess").  The reality is that a 7-footer who averaged 11 points, 7 rebounds, and made 44% of his 3's and 74% of his FT's would get a lot of money in the portal.  Similar profiles are ranked among the top 20 players available.

[Jim French Stepstool]

6 hours ago, LouisEly said:

 

 

It is a free market.  Crowl is free to do what he chooses, as is UW.  

 

There's talk that Crowl has been approached & immediately shut them down. Whether that's integrity, simply being happy where he is (I'm sure some would describe it as 'stupidity'), it's refreshing to me. I imagine there are other examples of that across the country, which of course won't garner headlines.

[MrTPlush]

56 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

I like how much you use the term "probably" (and "guess").  The reality is that a 7-footer who averaged 11 points, 7 rebounds, and made 44% of his 3's and 74% of his FT's would get a lot of money in the portal.  Similar profiles are ranked among the top 20 players available.

I am glad you appreciate my use of terms to reiterate the fact that at the end of the day my statements in a forum are opinions. I don’t know why you are trying to spin that in some kind of a negative way.

I am sure he could get money on the open market. He probably just doesn’t want to bounce around school to school. Being as he really isn’t a NBA prospect it is probably wise to value stability from an education standpoint. A bit of a rarity these days as kids chase short term money. Hope they at least save it for a big retirement egg.

Im not saying Crowl is doing anything wrong…I just seriously doubt he is staying because the way they distribute money to everyone ‘nicely’. I’m sure Crowl would happily take 50% of the entire teams NIL money without shedding a tear…who would?

Wisconsin is a nice school and they run their athletics in a respectable way. People think they are some perfect school though like they don’t mislead recruits to get them to come in. That seems like pretty wishful thinking.

[Jim French Stepstool]

3 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

 

Wisconsin is a nice school and they run their athletics in a respectable way. People think they are some perfect school though like they don’t mislead recruits to get them to come in. That seems like pretty wishful thinking.

I've met & talked to coaches both at UW & other schools, both assistants & HCs. Regarding what they tell recruits & how they deal with them, I firmly believe that since the mid-nineties the BB program has been about as above-board as you're going to find among P-5 schools. Let me say that they're not alone; there are others in the same category.