2024-25 Milwaukee Bucks thread

[HarryDoyle]

3 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Ehhh. They wouldn't be any better with Holiday though. Dame was a risk they had to take. Holiday's limitations offensively are very real, and that is what the Bucks needed, a reliable second scorer. Those limitations are also masked in Boston because the roster is just better. 

That he isn't playing so great alongside Giannis wasn't predictable. They were definitely not going anywhere running it back again. So while it looks like the door is shut, I think it was a shakeup they had to try. 

Certainly not even close to trading Ray Allen away. 

I'm not saying I didn't like the trade at the time... I did. But what we've been seeing since then, knowing what we know now, and all the more draft capital we traded away, it's not looking good at all. The team is just too old to be a championship contender and they're trying to run it back again to appease Giannis. You thought Rodgers was/is running the show in Green Bay/ New York...that's nothing compared to what Giannis is doing with the Bucks.

[GAME05]

I don't really see any scenario in which the Bucks are really any better than they are now.

You could have done a youth movement and not re-sign Middleton and Lopez, but so close to a Championship the fans would have revolted, or a Giannis you were hoping to extend revolts that his friend was traded. You could keep Jrue and we'd have a great defensive team with a one-dimensional offense and Giannis breaking down from the workload.

We needed a #1 scorer and who else are you choosing but Lillard? If Haliburton were available, he's a great player but who is he passing it to?  Young, emerging scorers don't grow on trees and it tends to be their teams won't trade them for a lockdown defender who shoots 5-20 each night plus a bunch of late first rounders who are typically more like Beauchamp than the late rounders Toronto manages to find.

It is what it is. In a year or two we'll probably get to see Giannis asking to leave and we can drool over what sort of return we can get for him.

[markedman5]

 .its going to be a long winter waiting for spring training…. …..Horst has managed them into cap hell and basically given them a roster that is old and slow around Giannis.

No depth…the ..draft choices that they haven’t traded have been awful,,,,,,

hard to watch……

[adambr2]

As bad as Rivers is at his job, Horst might be worse. 

Rivers is going to be 18-22 as Bucks HC after today. Half a season sample. 

THIS is the guy we settled on. 

You might as well get out ahead of it and trade Giannis at peak value and go full rebuild. The window is full closed. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

10 hours ago, adambr2 said:

As bad as Rivers is at his job, Horst might be worse. 

Rivers is going to be 18-22 as Bucks HC after today. Half a season sample. 

THIS is the guy we settled on. 

You might as well get out ahead of it and trade Giannis at peak value and go full rebuild. The window is full closed. 

I think this is closer than people might think. He is going to ask out of this.

[CheezWizHed]

I have to admit that trading Giannis has crossed my mind unfortunately. It would be horrible, but it is hard to see a path to another championship with the current team. 

I actually think Horst has done a good job... sort of.  He keeps finding creative ways to bring talent to the team and being competitive.  He was in a tough spot by trying to keep the team together to win again (and derailed by injuries).  Then pushed by Giannis (so it seems) to hire and/or keep certain players.  

The team trend has been downward the last few years, but he has been creative in slowing the decent.

[adambr2]

46 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

I have to admit that trading Giannis has crossed my mind unfortunately. It would be horrible, but it is hard to see a path to another championship with the current team. 

I actually think Horst has done a good job... sort of.  He keeps finding creative ways to bring talent to the team and being competitive.  He was in a tough spot by trying to keep the team together to win again (and derailed by injuries).  Then pushed by Giannis (so it seems) to hire and/or keep certain players.  

The team trend has been downward the last few years, but he has been creative in slowing the decent.

He has Giannis. He has a default competitive team before he even does anything else. To whatever extend the downward trend has been slowed is because at the end of the day, they still have Giannis. It isn't a credit to anything Horst has done, in my opinion. The Bucks don't even own their own 1st again until 2031. They're in a horrific mess and they're all-in on their horrific mess. 

[nate82]

2 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

They're in a horrific mess and they're all-in on their horrific mess. 

That is basically the NBA model.  You keep your superstar for as long as you can gamble everything on that superstar and hopefully you get one or more championships.  Look at the Nets they gambled everything on Kyrie and Durant then went broke.  It is basically the circle of life in the NBA.  If you find a superstar you latch onto that superstar until you can't anymore.  

The Celtics are starting to get into this cycle now.  This is just how the NBA works.  

Even if the Bucks trade Giannis they won't get back a lottery pick.  Giannis would kill a trade to a team that won't be competing.  It would have to be to a team that is going to be competing for a championship.  Those teams also won't have the young talent to trade either.  You are basically just going to get late to mid first round picks plus some expiring contracts.  The only good thing for the Bucks is they have two players who could get this return.  So you could stock up on mid range picks. 

[HarryDoyle]

7 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

I think this is closer than people might think. He is going to ask out of this.

If by he you mean Giannis, he has no one to blame but himself. Much like Rodgers, and really even more so, the organization has given him everything he's asked for to appease him so he won't leave. Now that things are going south he wants out? Pretty selfish if that's the case.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

1 hour ago, HarryDoyle said:

If by he you mean Giannis, he has no one to blame but himself. Much like Rodgers, and really even more so, the organization has given him everything he's asked for to appease him so he won't leave. Now that things are going south he wants out? Pretty selfish if that's the case.

That's the world superstars live in though. Most of them would do the same things he did. Everything is about what's convenient for them at the present moment. It's their universe.

[adambr2]

I can't think of very many examples in sports where a player essentially became the GM and it worked out well. You'd think these guys would learn and just stay in their lane, but they don't. Their egos are just too big. 

Just like Giannis the GM sucks, Aaron Rodgers the GM sucks. Maybe Tom Brady in Tampa is one example where it actually worked. Sort of. He got Gronk and won it all. But then in his last year when AB was there, things unraveled. 

[jay87shot]

There is no one on this team after Giannis who trys to get to the rim. If you take Giannis out of the equation the rest of the team is shooting over 50% of their shoots from 3. Bobby takes a lot of mid range shots that skews that number even some. I get that this team needs to create space for Giannis but just having 4 guys standing around the 3 point line won't work, get to the basket and it will create better more open 3 attempts.

[patrickgpe]

Beauchamp's 4th year option declined, adding to the list of failed draft picks under Horst.  Since the majority of the picks that bucks have had the last few years and have the rest of the decade, they do not have control of, one of their biggest issues that their picks have been horrible. One could argue that the best (and only decent) pick Host has made during his time here is DiVincenzo. I understand that this is partially not fair due to the large amount of picks lost in the Bledsoe, Holiday and Dame trades, but you got to hit the ones  you have. This is why added I along with the horrible coaching firing / hiring decisions  wasn't going to be upset if Horst went to Detroit last offseason. 

[nate82]

All of Horst’s picks have been late 1st round picks.  Which historically have been garbage the majority of the time.  If you are drafting in the 20+ range it is like expecting a star player in the 6th round of the NFL draft.  You are lucky if you get a rotational pick in that range.  In the 2022 draft where the Bucks selected Marjon only Nikola Jović has been better.  The Bucks haven’t drafted lower than 20 since 2017 and have only kept their pick four times since 2017.  Can’t really blame Horst on the bad draft picks when he hasn’t really had many to choose from and where he has been drafting.

[CheezWizHed]

Great. For Halloween, the Bucks dressed up as Apathy and Lethargy. 

These guys don't look like they even want to be out there. 

No idea what PC brings to the team anymore.  He can't shoot.  He is out of position on D.  Yet they give him so much playing time.  

Giannis' free throws are embarrassing.  They should make a deal that he can't shoot jumpers farther than the FT line if he can't shoot better than 70% of his FTs. 

The entire offense just looks like people standing around and watching the player with the ball... Just bad stuff.

[adambr2]

5 hours ago, nate82 said:

All of Horst’s picks have been late 1st round picks.  Which historically have been garbage the majority of the time.  If you are drafting in the 20+ range it is like expecting a star player in the 6th round of the NFL draft.  You are lucky if you get a rotational pick in that range.  In the 2022 draft where the Bucks selected Marjon only Nikola Jović has been better.  The Bucks haven’t drafted lower than 20 since 2017 and have only kept their pick four times since 2017.  Can’t really blame Horst on the bad draft picks when he hasn’t really had many to choose from and where he has been drafting.

His next 6 might be lottery picks; too bad none of them will belong to him. 

[adambr2]

Just now, CheezWizHed said:

Great. For Halloween, the Bucks dressed up as Apathy and Lethargy. 

These guys don't look like they even want to be out there. 

No idea what PC brings to the team anymore.  He can't shoot.  He is out of position on D.  Yet they give him so much playing time.  

Giannis' free throws are embarrassing.  They should make a deal that he can't shoot jumpers farther than the FT line if he can't shoot better than 70% of his FTs. 

The entire offense just looks like people standing around and watching the player with the ball... Just bad stuff.

Rivers still being the coach is insanity. I know you'd like to have some stability, but firing the guy who was 30-13 and keeping the guy who is like 5 games under .500 in his tenure here just makes you look totally incompetent. 

Some very dark years ahead. We haven't even scraped the surface of rock bottom yet. Usually when you're in this position you're at least able to look forward to adding lottery talent. We have nothing. For a long time. 

[Joseph Zarr]

Boy that Bucks championship window closed FAST. 😅

Looking back, preventing the Pistons from interviewing Horst is mildly comical. 
 

On the other hand, I do believe Griffin's Buckaroos lost by 50 to Memphis just last season? Down 29 after three might be 'progress'.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The thing about the NBA is there is not real a difference between the dark years and being the 6th seed. You have absolutely no chance in either spot. It is the least random of the major 3 sports by a wide margin. 

But they're done. The wheels are off this bus. I hope Giannis is able to latch on somewhere and win again. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

1 minute ago, Joseph Zarr said:

Boy that Bucks championship window closed FAST. 😅

Looking back, preventing the Pistons from interviewing Horst is mildly comical. 
 

On the other hand, I do believe Griffin's Buckaroos lost by 50 to Memphis just last season? Down 29 after three might be 'progress'.

I don't think it closed that fast. It was open in 2019 and 2020, they just didn't win. It was certainly open in 2022, and arguably 2023 without injuries. I think 2024, meaning last year, was the first time I thought it was clear they had no chance. 

So that's about a 5-year window. That loss to the Raptors in the ECF is really the one they let get away. 

 

[SomewhereInTime]

On 10/29/2024 at 6:46 AM, adambr2 said:

He has Giannis. He has a default competitive team before he even does anything else. To whatever extend the downward trend has been slowed is because at the end of the day, they still have Giannis. It isn't a credit to anything Horst has done, in my opinion. The Bucks don't even own their own 1st again until 2031. They're in a horrific mess and they're all-in on their horrific mess. 

Exactly.  I give no credit to current management.  Giannis wasn't drafted by Horst.  They have drafted a grand total of two useful players since 2014 and neither of them are still on the team.  Almost all the rotational guys who actually play are 30+ years old.

[patrickgpe]

@nate82I get that, but about every pick has been bad. You should hit on one every once in a while.  I wanted Dunn this last draft and he has been good so far. If he would just not swing for the fences every tike (like he did with DiVincenzo)

 

[GAME05]

15 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

The entire offense just looks like people standing around and watching the player with the ball... Just bad stuff.

It really seems like the curse of your star player being able to do everything. Instead of adding glue guys or clean-up guys or guys who add to what the star is missing, the Bucks instead went after the extras. Nobody plays team ball because we weren't built like a team. We're left with five guys on the court and each of them think that when they touch the ball, they're the ones who have to score.

I've heard if you're above the second apron you can only trade a player for one equally paid player, so that certainly complicates an Giannis trade. Maybe you'd have to involve a third team. Others were saying Giannis would be worth the equivalent of 10 first-rounders.

 

[Joseph Zarr]

Between this and the repeated clips of Bobby absolutely blowing his defensive rotation assignments...these Bucks are just really really bad in their current form. And, now, they have two upcoming versus the red hot and young and talented Cavs. Who, it turns out, are coached by none other than Kenny Atkinson - who plays a movement heavy diverse array of offensive sets. Another qualified coach turned away in the Bucks interview process. I find it absolutely amazing the Bucks fired Bud to hire Adrian Griffin. To fire Griffin. To pay double digit annual Million dollar contracts to one Doc Rivers. The ongoing level of incompetence within the Bucks organization is reverting to a sort of B-Side to the Kohl years. They have money to spend and, boy, are they spending it. Yet, the incompetence is so rich they can't help but get in their own collective ways. 

In a vaccum, trading Jrue and moving on from Bud can certainly be rationalized. Maybe they had reached the peak of that iteration. BUT, the consequent decisions have been nothing short of devastating for the organization. And, as others are pointing to above, the collective failures in the draft process (not to mention the glaring disrespect of draft picks in general when trading away nearly every one) play major major parts as well.

This is an organization in shambles. It really is. Can they turn it around? Maybe? But, I think this type of reversion was always in the cards when you consider the overwhelming history of personnel decisions; coaching decisions; and organizational mistakes. It looked rosy after game one. They looked motivated and organized. They look absolutely nothing close to that resemblance since. They look old. Slow. Uninspired. Lazy. And disorganized. It's a total mess.

[nate82]

Having the statue Lopez on defense doesn’t help anything either.  The example above you can see Lopez retreating to the basket without even an attempt to help out on defense once his assignment goes to the perimeter.

Then he just sits there next to someone already covered.  Is Lopez assignment just the rim or something?