MLB formally reinstates Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe Jackson

[LouisEly]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/45115659/pete-rose-shoeless-joe-jackson-players-reinstated-mlb

Both are now eligible for election into the hall as Manfred rules that MLB's punishment of banned individuals ends with their death.

"Obviously, a person no longer with us cannot represent a threat to the integrity of the game," Manfred wrote.

[duewizard]

Good for them. With the way betting is now and the importance of Rose's record it wasa bit ridiculous he was still banned. Sad he wont see it but its something.

As for Jackson, he supposedly tried to report the cheating and didnt take any money. Also, its been a century ley bygones be bygones

[AKCheesehead]

I think this is appropriate.  A lifetime ban is just that, a lifetime ban.  In my opinion, Rose never had any business sniffing the hall until after he kicked the bucket, and I'm glad they never caved to that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I could not care less about Pete Rose. He seemed like a pretty straightforward creep of a human being.

I'm far more interested in seeing Shoeless Joe get into the Hall.

[TURBO]

Seems a bit cruel and vindictive to do this a few months AFTER Rose died.

Would it have been such a horrible thing to do it before he passed to give him peace of mind?

Shoeless should have been in decades ago, this should have been righted a long time ago.

[dlk9s]

1 hour ago, LouisEly said:

"Obviously, a person no longer with us cannot represent a threat to the integrity of the game," Manfred wrote.

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

[dlk9s]

7 minutes ago, TURBO said:

Would it have been such a horrible thing to do it before he passed to give him peace of mind?

He had sex with a 14-15-year-old girl.

[RobertCrawley]

Honor should mean something, but to a lot of people these days, it doesn't.

[RobertCrawley]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I could not care less about Pete Rose. He seemed like a pretty straightforward creep of a human being.

I'm far more interested in seeing Shoeless Joe get into the Hall.

He took the money.

[Brock Beauchamp]

30 minutes ago, RobertCrawley said:

He took the money.

Sure, I'm not absolving Shoeless Joe of anything.

But given that it happened over 100 years ago and didn't harm any human beings, I also don't really care.

[RobertCrawley]

3 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Sure, I'm not absolving Shoeless Joe of anything.

But given that it happened over 100 years ago and didn't harm any human beings, I also don't really care.

Or: If you throw games for money in baseball (and you are caught), people will never forgive you, not even for 100 years.

That's a useful piece of knowledge to keep the integrity of the game.

It doesn't exist anymore though.

[Brock Beauchamp]

12 minutes ago, RobertCrawley said:

Or: If you throw games for money in baseball (and you are caught), people will never forgive you, not even for 100 years.

That's a useful piece of knowledge to keep the integrity of the game.

It doesn't exist anymore though.

I just can't get worked up about gambling. Yeah, it shouldn't happen but I also struggle to get upset about it when we have some truly awful people who hurt actual human beings in the Hall but they didn't violate one specific rule about gambling so it's all good.

Shoeless Joe Jackson isn't in the Hall of Fame because he took money to throw games. Charles Comiskey is in the Hall of Fame despite being a vile human being.

So forgive me if I don't really get upset about Joe taking a few bucks over 100 years ago.

[RobertCrawley]

9 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I just can't get worked up about gambling. Yeah, it shouldn't happen but I also struggle to get upset about it when we have some truly awful people who hurt actual human beings in the Hall but they didn't violate one specific rule about gambling so it's all good.

I agree about the Hall of Fame. The ban from baseball is the thing. 

Players gambling on their own sport makes outcomes meaningless. Maybe people are ok with that.

For some folks, money is more important than honor, especially these days.

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, RobertCrawley said:

I agree about the Hall of Fame. The ban from baseball is the thing. 

Players gambling on their own sport makes outcomes meaningless. Maybe people are ok with that.

For some folks, money is more important than honor, especially these days.

To be honest, I felt more strongly about the gambling ban before MLB started openly courting betting companies left and right. It all feels pretty hypocritical at this point.

And I'm a person who has never laid a bet on a sporting event, at least not that I can remember. I've gambled plenty of times but sports betting isn't my thing.

[RobertCrawley]

Just now, Brock Beauchamp said:

To be honest, I felt more strongly about the gambling ban before MLB started openly courting betting companies left and right. It all feels pretty hypocritical at this point.

And I'm a person who has never laid a bet on a sporting event, at least not that I can remember. I've gambled plenty of times but sports betting isn't my thing.

I agree. It's possible that alliance will come back to bite the sport in a very bad way.

I don't gamble on anything. Not that that makes me an awesome person. I just like my money. But I do notice that gambling can make fans pretty harsh.

[tomwopat]

I have a hard time convincing myself Shoeless Joe should be admitted, he admitted to a grand jury he threw the games and married a 15 year old.

Maybe he's objectively less of a terrible human being than Pete Rose but it seems like the arguments for his admission are more baseball lore than anything at this point.

[RobertCrawley]

1 minute ago, tomwopat said:

I have a hard time convincing myself Shoeless Joe should be admitted, he admitted to a grand jury he threw the games and married a 15 year old.

Maybe he's objectively less of a terrible human being than Pete Rose but it seems like the arguments for his admission are more baseball lore than anything at this point.

Field of Dreams.

[UsainJolt]

I think sports are funny sometimes because it creates a morality tale out of things that can radically flip later on — younger me, in my baseball adolescence would have ABHORRED today. Even the me of a few years ago, at best, would be completely apathetic.

Today, with time and age, I almost view Rose as a tragic figure, though I reserve the right to change my mind on that (I had never heard of the statutory rape until now, for instance). He seemed like a victim of himself as well as his own tormentor, never having a personality that wasn’t his baseball accomplishments, never able to figure out that Pete Rose, the person, and Pete Rose, the man, could be two separate entities. Pete Rose made Charlie Hustle his entire psyche — always the underdog, always trying to get one over, always the little dog in the fight; but once you take baseball out of that equation for 30 years, what do you have left except the husk of a man? He wasn’t a great businessman or an investor and wasn’t a magnetic personality; he made baseball his end-all, be-all.

Instead, he hangs on far longer than he probably should have were he not managing himself with Ty Cobb’s record being his sole focus because baseball was literally all he was and all he knew. Add to that a hero complex that you see in a lot of professional athletes where everything they touch turns to gold/create an aura of infallibility around themselves that gets reinforced by everything around them, I can see easily how a guy would fall victim to his own vices.

Suddenly, for the first time in his life, that player turned manager turned personality begins facing legit criticism and consequences for maybe the first time since adolescence, where he previously could do no wrong. Furthermore, it comes from the very game that he’s surrounded his entire life around. It makes him do actions that seem illogical to someone with a normal sense of self, but to someone like Rose, so absorbed in the accomplishments of his past that he never had to think about of a future without baseball, it’s the only thing that makes sense.

So he attacks; he lies; he twists the truth into something that makes sense to his worldview, even as he paints himself into a corner, so far is he in his own head that it’s better to play a malicious gadfly than an apologetic screwup. He tries to play the all-conquering titan to the people, who more and more view him as just another flawed mortal, so he buries his head in the sand further. Even eventually coming clean with his involvement, I don’t think there was ever contrition or true apology there, being mostly a transactional reaction of “if I apologize, maybe I’ll get something back”, which I feel like forced him further into a spiral of near-irrelevancy outside of a few very dedicated superfans and a small yearly mention during the HOF votes every season…though that could be my own biases from the past showing.

As an aside, I feel like we’re living a lesser version of this in the constant soap opera of late career Aaron Rodgers right now — a guy who for so long controlled his own destiny, suddenly not being able to confront the fact that his own athletic skills are waning and being too stubborn to adjust to a new present that he can’t reconcile with his past, and not being able to confront a future without controlling the present on his own obsolete terms.

I don’t pity Rose, the person, too much, just like I have very few thoughts to spare on Rodgers making his own bed and then complaining about the knives he hid in it poking him through the sheets — we’re all responsible for our own actions regardless of the factors that lead us to our decisions, and personally, Rose always came off as smug and all-knowing, which is usually not a healthy vibe to give if you ever want to be considered a creative or interesting person — but I wonder if things would have ended better for him if he’d ever internalized any sort of validation for who he was as a person, divorced of anything athletic-related, or if he by nature was always set for this kind of rise and burnout.

[Fear The Chorizo]

As long as the full story of these guys goes into their HOF sections (i.e., why they were banned from the game for life), I have zero problems with all time great players going into HOF's... infamy is just as important to teach people.

 

I think the same should happen to the group of obvious PEDers with numbers deserving HOF credentials after they leave this earth.

[Sixtolezcano]

11 hours ago, UsainJolt said:

I think sports are funny sometimes because it creates a morality tale out of things that can radically flip later on — younger me, in my baseball adolescence would have ABHORRED today. Even the me of a few years ago, at best, would be completely apathetic.

Today, with time and age, I almost view Rose as a tragic figure, though I reserve the right to change my mind on that (I had never heard of the statutory rape until now, for instance). He seemed like a victim of himself as well as his own tormentor, never having a personality that wasn’t his baseball accomplishments, never able to figure out that Pete Rose, the person, and Pete Rose, the man, could be two separate entities. Pete Rose made Charlie Hustle his entire psyche — always the underdog, always trying to get one over, always the little dog in the fight; but once you take baseball out of that equation for 30 years, what do you have left except the husk of a man? He wasn’t a great businessman or an investor and wasn’t a magnetic personality; he made baseball his end-all, be-all.

Instead, he hangs on far longer than he probably should have were he not managing himself with Ty Cobb’s record being his sole focus because baseball was literally all he was and all he knew. Add to that a hero complex that you see in a lot of professional athletes where everything they touch turns to gold/create an aura of infallibility around themselves that gets reinforced by everything around them, I can see easily how a guy would fall victim to his own vices.

Suddenly, for the first time in his life, that player turned manager turned personality begins facing legit criticism and consequences for maybe the first time since adolescence, where he previously could do no wrong. Furthermore, it comes from the very game that he’s surrounded his entire life around. It makes him do actions that seem illogical to someone with a normal sense of self, but to someone like Rose, so absorbed in the accomplishments of his past that he never had to think about of a future without baseball, it’s the only thing that makes sense.

So he attacks; he lies; he twists the truth into something that makes sense to his worldview, even as he paints himself into a corner, so far is he in his own head that it’s better to play a malicious gadfly than an apologetic screwup. He tries to play the all-conquering titan to the people, who more and more view him as just another flawed mortal, so he buries his head in the sand further. Even eventually coming clean with his involvement, I don’t think there was ever contrition or true apology there, being mostly a transactional reaction of “if I apologize, maybe I’ll get something back”, which I feel like forced him further into a spiral of near-irrelevancy outside of a few very dedicated superfans and a small yearly mention during the HOF votes every season…though that could be my own biases from the past showing.

As an aside, I feel like we’re living a lesser version of this in the constant soap opera of late career Aaron Rodgers right now — a guy who for so long controlled his own destiny, suddenly not being able to confront the fact that his own athletic skills are waning and being too stubborn to adjust to a new present that he can’t reconcile with his past, and not being able to confront a future without controlling the present on his own obsolete terms.

I don’t pity Rose, the person, too much, just like I have very few thoughts to spare on Rodgers making his own bed and then complaining about the knives he hid in it poking him through the sheets — we’re all responsible for our own actions regardless of the factors that lead us to our decisions, and personally, Rose always came off as smug and all-knowing, which is usually not a healthy vibe to give if you ever want to be considered a creative or interesting person — but I wonder if things would have ended better for him if he’d ever internalized any sort of validation for who he was as a person, divorced of anything athletic-related, or if he by nature was always set for this kind of rise and burnout.

This post best describes the nature of Rose. It describes the true motivation of narcissists everywhere and perfectly explains this mental illness. A post of our current times.

[dlk9s]

13 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I just can't get worked up about gambling. Yeah, it shouldn't happen but I also struggle to get upset about it when we have some truly awful people who hurt actual human beings in the Hall but they didn't violate one specific rule about gambling so it's all good.

Shoeless Joe Jackson isn't in the Hall of Fame because he took money to throw games. Charles Comiskey is in the Hall of Fame despite being a vile human being.

So forgive me if I don't really get upset about Joe taking a few bucks over 100 years ago.

Just because some bad people are in the Hall doesn't mean that Pete Rose and Joe Jackson should be.

Nobody has to get "worked up" or "really upset" about gambling, but we also don't have to bestow the highest honor in the sport upon people who commit baseball's cardinal sin, one whose punishment is a lifetime ban from the game.

And forget enshrining them, but with a note about what they did. Come on. How about just don't vote them in.

[rickmanningfan]

It's surprising how little mention is made of Pete Rose being a child rapist.  Might not be great to tie baseball's legacy to that.

[Fear The Chorizo]

15 minutes ago, dlk9s said:

Just because some bad people are in the Hall doesn't mean that Pete Rose and Joe Jackson should be.

Nobody has to get "worked up" or "really upset" about gambling, but we also don't have to bestow the highest honor in the sport upon people who commit baseball's cardinal sin, one whose punishment is a lifetime ban from the game.

 

And forget enshrining them, but with a note about what they did. Come on. How about just don't vote them in.

I should have further elaborated in my earlier post that im ok with HOF enshrinement for these sort of situations AFTER they breathe their last breath.  IMO they shouldn't get the satisfaction of knowing they're in the baseball HOF during their lifetimes - actions do have consequences.

[Jopal78]

There’s more to a lifetime ban than the Hall of Fame . A banned player is ineligible to participate in the MLBPA licensing agreements. Pete Rose being allowed back in the game means significant dollars to his heirs.

To me it’s another example of baseball being craven. After Rose’s death the President suggests Rose should  be in the Hall, the commissioner of baseball subsequently takes a meeting with the president of the United States; shortly thereafter the rules that have been in place for over 100 years are suddenly altered to seemingly benefit one person (Joe Jackson’s heirs are all dead too. They’re not gonna see any money or benefits), and it’s all brought to you by FanDuel sports and the other bookies who have facilities inside major league parks.

 

 

 

 

[homer]

15 hours ago, TURBO said:

Seems a bit cruel and vindictive to do this a few months AFTER Rose died.

Would it have been such a horrible thing to do it before he passed to give him peace of mind?

Shoeless should have been in decades ago, this should have been righted a long time ago.

Rose had his chance under Selig:

 

Quote

For nearly 15 years, he denied having placed a single bet on baseball. In the early 2000s, then-commissioner Bud Selig offered Rose a chance -- but with conditions, including admitting that he gambled on baseball, making no casino appearances and stopping all gambling. Rose declined