Should "Joba Rules" apply to Turnbow?

[NYChez]

The Yankees follow these rules when using their young pitcher, Joba Chamberlain:

 

- he always gets a day off between appearances

- he never enters the game in the middle of an inning

 

Here are Turnbow's stats when the Joba Rules are followed: 1.55 ERA, 0.98 WHIP

 

And here are Turnbow's stats when one of the Joba Rules is violated: 9.90 ERA, 1.80 WHIP.

 

Pretty convincing.

 

 

(added tag --1992)

[paul253]

thats actually a very fascinating stat. mu suggestion for Turnbow use is always start him at the beginning of an inning, and take him out as soon as he lets a hitter reach base, even if its an error.

[lumberrule]

Joba is also a rookie pitching in the most hostile environment imaginable for a kid in his position (for the Yankees). Im sure if the Yankees make the playoffs, those rules probably get tossed right out the window.

Its certainly well documented that Derrick has his problems when he's brought in with inherited runners, but with the state of the Brewers bullpen right now, the team can't afford to not go to him no back-to-back nights in games the Brewers need him.

[Principessa21]

The Yankees follow these rules when using their young pitcher, Joba Chamberlain:

 

- he always gets a day off between appearances

- he never enters the game in the middle of an inning

 

Here are Turnbow's stats when the Joba Rules are followed: 1.55 ERA, 0.98 WHIP

 

And here are Turnbow's stats when one of the Joba Rules is violated: 9.90 ERA, 1.80 WHIP.

 

Pretty convincing.

That's not exactly how the "Joba rules" work. It's for every inning he pitche's, he must get a day off. And when he comes into a game, he can only pitch, as many days he has off. Those rules are in effect because Joba is young (21), it's his first year in the major (so no need to rush), and he's going to be a starter. Also, I don't think the "Joba rule" will deviate that much if the Yankees get to the postseason since Cashmen seems to be in charge of this more than Torre.

 

Anyway, I think the OP's question is intersting. No, I don't think the "Joba rules" should apply for the reasons I stated above. The Turnbow's stats mentioned are alarming, but it shouldn't be suprising that a guy with rest is doing better than when he doesn't have as much rest, etc. But that doesn't mean that Yost shouldn't take these facts into consideration, esp. down the stretch.

[RightFieldCoder]

I'd give Turnbow two baserunners. When he's going good, he still seems to have that one batter he gives a 4 pitch walk to but still gets out of the inning.

[Tbadder]

Interesting indeed. Do we use stats or not, that's the question. If we ignore the Turnbow stats we can expect him to cost the Brewers games. Why would we knowingly set him up for failure? Unless the stats lie.

[rluzinski]

Just about any reliever is going to do better if he's well rested, no? Turnbow can be very eratic at times but the Brewers simply don't have enough options better to start making rigid rules with regard to his use.

[JohnBriggs12]

Two things you have to watch with Turnbow. Don't let him go more than 4 days between appearences. Both times that's happened, once in May and once in August, he blew up (May 14 vs. Philly and Aug. 16 vs. Cards).

 

Also, it's not so much the back to back days that gets him, its the 3 appearences in 4 days, or the 4 appearences in 5 days. If he has two off days, then throws 2 days in a row, he seems to be fine.

 

I think Robin19 has hit on it though. When he comes in the 8th inning with a lead, he should be allowed no more than 2 baserunners.

[BrewCrewForever]

After two base runners, Turnbow must be pulled. That along with never putting him in with runners on base are the two rules I would follow with him.

[rluzinski]

After two base runners, Turnbow must be pulled.

 

For whom? Aquino? Spurling? You can't just make a blanket statement like that without considering the alternatives.

[BrewCrewForever]

After two base runners, Turnbow must be pulled.

 

For whom? Aquino? Spurling? You can't just make a blanket statement like that without considering the alternatives.

Have you seen what usually happens when Turnbow lets 2 runners on base? Im not saying I know who to go to, but Turnbow is not the answer at that point.

 

[1992casey]

In a recent game, didn't the Brewers specifically bring in someone else to avoid having Derrick start an inning?

[Brian the Automator]

After two base runners, Turnbow must be pulled.

 

For whom? Aquino? Spurling? You can't just make a blanket statement like that without considering the alternatives.

I agree with BrewCrewIn2004. I'm not sure if this is an obvious observation or not, but when Turnbow's having a "Turnblow moment", it's apparent from the get-go. I'd always keep him on a short leash, especially on 0 days rest.

As far as suggestions go, I'd go in this order:

1) Cordero, assuming it's possible to warm him up. To me, this falls on Castro's shoulders. I can't imagine that if he's not hitting his targets in the bullpen, he would hit them on the mound, or vice versa. Obviously, you don't want to warm up Cordero at the very beginning of the 8th EVERY TIME Derrick is up.

2) Shouse or King, assuming the guy they're bringing them in for is a lefty

3) Matt Wise. If the guy in the on deck circle was timing Derrick's pitches, maybe this throws them for a loop

 

 

 

 

[BrewCrewForever]

After two base runners, Turnbow must be pulled.

 

For whom? Aquino? Spurling? You can't just make a blanket statement like that without considering the alternatives.

I agree with BrewCrewIn2004. I'm not sure if this is an obvious observation or not, but when Turnbow's having a "Turnblow moment", it's apparent from the get-go. I'd always keep him on a short leash, especially on 0 days rest.

As far as suggestions go, I'd go in this order:

1) Cordero, assuming it's possible to warm him up. To me, this falls on Castro's shoulders. I can't imagine that if he's not hitting his targets in the bullpen, he would hit them on the mound, or vice versa. Obviously, you don't want to warm up Cordero at the very beginning of the 8th EVERY TIME Derrick is up.

2) Shouse or King, assuming the guy they're bringing them in for is a lefty

3) Matt Wise. If the guy in the on deck circle was timing Derrick's pitches, maybe this throws them for a loop

 

 

 

 

That sounds about right Brian. At this point in the season I don't see any reason Cordero can't get a 6 or 5 or 4 out save. And if its a lefty no doubt you go to Shouse or King if they have not been used. Wise is a better option then Spurling or Aquino so he fits as well.

 

[NYChez]

Another predictable meltdown on zero days rest (today against the Pirates).

 

Basically, one 1 or more days rest, Turnbow is Jonathon Paplebon.

 

On zero days rest, Turnbow is Elmer Dessens / Greg Aquino / etc.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Why not bring in Coco today. He was well rested (aside from loosening up yesterday) and there is a day off tomorrow. Maybe he goes 2 innings. Not only was the Turnbow move somewhat questionable today...so was using him with a 5 run lead yesterday after seeing a fair amount of work on the roadtrip already.

 

The other side for Tuesday would be...we've blown some big leads especially on the road.

[stoutdude04]

Why not bring in Coco today. He was well rested (aside from loosening up yesterday) and there is a day off tomorrow. Maybe he goes 2 innings. Not only was the Turnbow move somewhat questionable today...so was using him with a 5 run lead yesterday after seeing a fair amount of work on the roadtrip already.

 

The only thing I wonder is if we know ALL of the circumstances. For all we know, CoCo had a chat with Ned and said he doesnt feel good pitching more then one inning. Whether or not that influences Ned I dont know. I would have liked to see CoCo pitch more than one inning as well.

[Team Canada]

I just don't understand how you watch Turnbow walk 2 guys and then think it's all going to work out. As has been said above, when Turnbow is bad, you KNOW he's bad, and you should get him out immediately. 2 runners MAX.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Why not bring in Coco today. He was well rested (aside from loosening up yesterday) and there is a day off tomorrow. Maybe he goes 2 innings. Not only was the Turnbow move somewhat questionable today...so was using him with a 5 run lead yesterday after seeing a fair amount of work on the roadtrip already.

 

The only thing I wonder is if we know ALL of the circumstances. For all we know, CoCo had a chat with Ned and said he doesnt feel good pitching more then one inning. Whether or not that influences Ned I dont know. I would have liked to see CoCo pitch more than one inning as well.

 

That's true. If anyone hears a response...post it. The only thing I saw was Coco warming up last night after T-bow let the first guy on. Since he had the potential quick hook the night before with a 5 run lead, I'm curious why they'd let him out there with 2 walks, a tired arm and a day off the next day. Plus, the top of the order coming up.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Why do the posters all know this 2 baserunner rule but not our manager?

[bsglorydays]

Answer... because its not that simple. As Rluz pointed out, you need to consider the alternatives. Who was warmed up at that point in the game? Certainly not Cordero (who, from what I understand, takes longer than most RP's to get warmed up). Do you want to go with your "best" guy, or someone else? Bottom line, if Turnbow makes pitches today, the Brewers have a chance to win - let's not forget that the Brewers never led this game. If Turnbow and Linebrink are the best 8th inning options, especially with Shouse not with the team, I'll take my chances with them.

[Team Canada]

If it's Bad Turnbow day, I'd much rather take my chances with ANYone else, I don't care who it is. Once those two guys walked, everyone here knew that the game was over unless he came out.

[Menotti80]

A few stats I hear on the radio yesterday

 

Turnbow's Era when pitching with 1-2 days rest: UNDER 0.70

Turnbow's Era when pitching with 0 days rest: OVER 8.00

 

Ouch.

 

I'm thinking maybe we need 2 different 8th inning guys for the rest of the season to avoid Turn-blow pitching in 2 straight games...

[stoutdude04]

I'm thinking maybe we need 2 different 8th inning guys for the rest of the season to avoid Turn-blow pitching in 2 straight games...

 

I dont think there should be an 8th inning guy period. Go with the best option no matter what. If the 3-4-5 guys are coming up in the 8th, CoCo should be in. (Generally those are the best hitters of course.) There is way too much stock in saves and "set-up" guys.

[endaround]

The problem is Yost has now decided to use Turnbow with large 9th inning leads if its "non-save". Turnbow pitched the 8th on 8th as set up for the win. He then pitched the 9th on the 9th in a 10-5 game. Which means that if needed on the 10th he wouldn't have been able to go (or shouldn't have gone). He is then used in the 9th in a 6-1 game on the 11th. So it was Turnbow's 4th game in 5 days, two of which he had no business pitching in.