Packers 2022 Discussion Thread

[adambr2]

Although the Packers D was better in week 2, the Eagles/Vikings game last night really illustrated how badly Joe Barry dropped the ball from a gameplan perspective in our opener. 

Slay really held Jefferson in check. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

9 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Although the Packers D was better in week 2, the Eagles/Vikings game last night really illustrated how badly Joe Barry dropped the ball from a gameplan perspective in our opener. 

Slay really held Jefferson in check. 

I think it is obvious at this point to nearly everyone that Jaire should have shadowed Jefferson. But not only was defensive gameplan in Week 1 lacking, the players also didn't execute. It was a perfect storm of bad.

That said, Primetime Kirk is a real thing. He looks like the worst QB in football in nationally televised night games.

[UpandIn]

58 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

Although the Packers D was better in week 2, the Eagles/Vikings game last night really illustrated how badly Joe Barry dropped the ball from a gameplan perspective in our opener. 

Slay really held Jefferson in check. 

We should remember Joe Barry was our 2nd option. Our 1st was a guy who plays a man heavy scheme.

We have two of the best man cover corners in the NFL(Jaire #1 over the last 3 years, Stokes #1 just last year) and then Douglas.

Barry likes to play zone.

We sat back and got picked apart last year until MLF told him he wanted more man coverage. With the personnel we've got...Barry is going to have to be nudged along by LaFleur again this year. 

I like Barry. He's just vanilla. He's like Ed Donatell was in the early aughts. And that worked for that Packers team because you had guys like Sharper and guys who could pressure the QB like KGB, Holliday, Kampman(I don't recall exactly who was there exactly when, but it was around then). 

Basically...Barry's too safe and this defense is talented enough they don't need to just sit back in zone and hope the offense makes a mistake. The works when you're LACKING premiere talent. We are not...anywhere. 

[CheezWizHed]

Where are people getting week 3 as the plan for Bahk? Not just your own surmising, but from Bahk, MLF, or anyone else from the Pack?

I remember hearing the offseason plan was the start of TC.  Then the start of TC plan was Week 1 and the Vikings. 

Just curious if there is a basis (other than our own hope) that week 3 was the plan (and not Plan "F")?

Barry's defense improved greatly as the season went on.  Pass D looked good vs the Bears (low bar, yes) and Run D needs major help.  But given that the first couple games amounts to a pre-season for the starters, I'm willing to see how it goes.  But there is too much talent on this team to be that bad. 

For those that expect Jaire to go man-to-man on JJ.  That does cause a lot of shifting and communication work on everyone else's part; especially as he goes in motion.  Come mid-season, I'd expect that to be a little easier.  For the first game of the season for many of them... I don't think they were ready to do that. 

Like it or not, but practice speed can't emulate game speed.  

[PeaveyFury]

I think the point is that if you believe that the coaches, etc. have been misleading or at least not telling the whole story regarding Bahk, you have to also assume that the plan was for him to start this week. There's no way they would have wasted a roster spot on him vs. shelving him if they legit expected the injury to linger into week 4 or beyond. The only two logical options are that 1)They always planned on him starting vs. TB, or 2)he's had a modest setback that was unexpected, so there's no misleading stuff going on. If the setback was severe, he'd be on the IL.

[Fear The Chorizo]

2 hours ago, PeaveyFury said:

I think the point is that if you believe that the coaches, etc. have been misleading or at least not telling the whole story regarding Bahk, you have to also assume that the plan was for him to start this week. There's no way they would have wasted a roster spot on him vs. shelving him if they legit expected the injury to linger into week 4 or beyond. The only two logical options are that 1)They always planned on him starting vs. TB, or 2)he's had a modest setback that was unexpected, so there's no misleading stuff going on. If the setback was severe, he'd be on the IL.

I'm thinking #2 happened once again, but would add there hasn't been a roster need due to a rash of injuries elsewhere yet that would lead to putting him back on IR-to-return at this point and they're in perpetual wait-and-see mode.  Honestly, if the expectation all along was that Bakh wasn't going to suit up in the regular season until week 3, he wouldn't have been taken off the PUP list to begin with so he wouldn't have had to be on the initial 53-man roster breaking camp.  

hopefully whatever setback he had once again (rumors went from Bakh suiting up in Week 1 to being out a few more weeks after a practice a few weeks ago) is over with and he's able to play this weekend in Tampa.

[UpandIn]

4 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Where are people getting week 3 as the plan for Bahk? Not just your own surmising, but from Bahk, MLF, or anyone else from the Pack?

I remember hearing the offseason plan was the start of TC.  Then the start of TC plan was Week 1 and the Vikings. 

Just curious if there is a basis (other than our own hope) that week 3 was the plan (and not Plan "F")?

Barry's defense improved greatly as the season went on.  Pass D looked good vs the Bears (low bar, yes) and Run D needs major help.  But given that the first couple games amounts to a pre-season for the starters, I'm willing to see how it goes.  But there is too much talent on this team to be that bad. 

For those that expect Jaire to go man-to-man on JJ.  That does cause a lot of shifting and communication work on everyone else's part; especially as he goes in motion.  Come mid-season, I'd expect that to be a little easier.  For the first game of the season for many of them... I don't think they were ready to do that. 

Like it or not, but practice speed can't emulate game speed.  

The Vikings turf is so bad they're replacing it and the Packers said they had zero concerns about his long term future, but used terms like "cautiously optimistic," and "hopeful," about Week 1 and then TC. So I thought Tampa made the most sense. I thought Chicago was a strong possibility as well, but I'm not surmising that was a definitive plan, more just a general idea.

 

Barry's defense DID improve as the season went on last year. And it was when Jaire went out, Douglas came in, made several huge plays(and when Lowry really turned it around). It still took Matt LaFleur publicly calling him and the DBs out and saying they needed to play more press and more man to help turn it around...a plan that was in part scratched because Jaire was injured and Douglas as a perimeter corner is better in zone. 

With regard to the shifting...they're bringing back 11 of the 12 guys who took the most defensive snaps from last year...the same secondary. If they wanted to play man, that's shouldn't be tough. You are adding Walker, but that's not going to have a huge impact on him. His reads should be relatively simple. A zone hybrid is definitely most difficult and I think Barry will be alright as he doesn't seem like he has a big ego, but I just don't see him as an innovator. He's a play it safe guy who gets pushed by...again, MLF and probably his players to be a bit more aggressive. Jaire is as good as they come in coverage and turning into a ball hawk as well(that pick last year when we were in cover 3 and he had one side and saw the play developing and abandoned his zone and went and made a pick in the deep middle....that was amazing. 

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

The Vikings turf is so bad they're replacing it and the Packers said they had zero concerns about his long term future, but used terms like "cautiously optimistic," and "hopeful," about Week 1 and then TC. 

I just think this is looking for excuses to hold a guy out if he's "close", when in reality if the organization actually looks at those type of things when considering activating him or not it's a cop-out to provide cover for a guy who may not be.  Lambeau has arguably the best playing surface in the NFL and Bakh was in street clothes Sunday night, so him missing the Vikings game had zero to do with their actual playing surface and everything to do with his ability to get through an NFL football game while playing well.  The "abundance of caution" stuff has been ongoing with #69 since late October of last season. I get that he indeed did have a few setbacks that led to additional surgeries and completely upended his initial timeline to get back on the field (which took a ton of prying into before Packers' brass actually admitted to that) - but I'd be much more willing to trust the Packers if they scrapped the "cautiously optimistic" tone that's turned them into boys crying wolf specific to Bakh and just indicated they need to see more from him on the practice field to consider him ready to be reinserted as this roster's starting LT.

we're all really pulling to see #69 back in game action, which will be the best indicator of what he is as a player after shredding his knee.  At this point the rest is just background noise trying to justify having Bakh on the 53 but not on the 48-man gameday rosters to start the season.  If he doesn't suit up against the Buccaneers sunday I think even the most optimistic folks are going to be questioning what in the world is going on with him.

[CheezWizHed]

Jaire's return does throw some "newness" back into how they played before.  Douglas in a new position and Jaire is pretty new to the system just because he was hurt early last year.  Not saying I don't think the D should be able to do it right now, but maybe one reason why they didn't try it.  Get the defense humming smoothly before trying to do something more complicated.

[UpandIn]

2 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

I'm thinking #2 happened once again, but would add there hasn't been a roster need due to a rash of injuries elsewhere yet that would lead to putting him back on IR-to-return at this point and they're in perpetual wait-and-see mode.  Honestly, if the expectation all along was that Bakh wasn't going to suit up in the regular season until week 3, he wouldn't have been taken off the PUP list to begin with so he wouldn't have had to be on the initial 53-man roster breaking camp.  

hopefully whatever setback he had once again (rumors went from Bakh suiting up in Week 1 to being out a few more weeks after a practice a few weeks ago) is over with and he's able to play this weekend in Tampa.

Saying they expected it all along is probably not the best way to put it...I don't think they knew, and by the time they activated him, I doubt they were thinking about a week 1 debut in Minnesota. Keeping him on PUP just ensures it's week 6 or 7 before he starts as he's not getting any time with the offense on the field. 

I haven't heard any rumors of another set back...I just think this is uncharted territory. It just seems like a "figure it out as you go," type scenario, but nothing happens without getting him reps and on the field. Then when you start looking closer, the Turf in Minnesota was SUPPOSED to be done before the season back in March, not it be replaced in-season. So that would have been a questionable decision. Chicago just as easily could have been the target as week 3...but also Yosh has taken yet another step this year, so maybe/hopefully it was just a precautionary measure. 

“I can get through the season,” Bakhtiari said. “It’s going to be fine. You have to just manage while playing. I’m just getting back in the swing of things. So, I mean, I think there’s normal rust and then new normal with three surgeries, so just kind of working that out and figuring out what my routine is.”

To me, this sounds like a guy who knows he'll be back, but is a little snake bitten from last year, but again, I get all the skepticism. 

 

On a side note, it'll be very interesting to see how they handle Nijman moving forward. Seems like the type of guy you might want to sign right now to a 3/18 type extension...if he's take it. I'm Caleb Jones #1 fan on here and we saw a little something from Walker in that final game(all at RT). But Yosh has not developed pretty firmly into a very solid starter and an elite backup. I really don't know what his market would look like...but if you could get him back for a pretty reasonable rate right now, is it worth it? Not insignificant that Bahk will count 29M against the cap next year(23M in the worst case scenario that...the most pessimistic people end up being right and they cut him) and we NEED to get Jenkins back. So may not be possible and likely the reason behind 11 OL on the 53, but I'd hate to lose a valuable, viable starting OT. 

[CheezWizHed]

They changed the PUP rules.  Leaving Bakh on the PUP means he would miss a minimum of 4 games.  

First round tender for an RFA is about $5.5M and second round at $4M (this year's numbers).  He isn't going to sign for 3/$18M.  He's going to get something like Zadarius Smith got from us when he was an ascending backup with Baltimore (4 years $66M). 

So let's say $5M next year (RFA) and $15M for 3 years? 4 years $50M... you don't pay that out to sit on a bench.  If Bakh retires maybe... I doubt it otherwise.

 

[UpandIn]

15 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

They changed the PUP rules.  Leaving Bakh on the PUP means he would miss a minimum of 4 games.  

First round tender for an RFA is about $5.5M and second round at $4M (this year's numbers).  He isn't going to sign for 3/$18M.  He's going to get something like Zadarius Smith got from us when he was an ascending backup with Baltimore (4 years $66M). 

So let's say $5M next year (RFA) and $15M for 3 years? 4 years $50M... you don't pay that out to sit on a bench.  If Bakh retires maybe... I doubt it otherwise.

 

Yes, but if he's on PUP through week 4, he's not just coming back immediately and playing the next week. He'd need 2-3 weeks...at least, to get on the field and get back out there.

As for as Nijman, I think we both like him...and we have wildly different opinions of his value.  You're talking Terron Armstread type value there. That seems like a lot.

I like him...and think he was good for our 3rd string LT last year. Not as an overall player, still well below average as a starter, but for that standard he was really about as good of a 3rd string LT as you could get.

I think he's better this year. He's close to playing like an average starting NFL LT. I don't see him getting 4/66 unless it's structured like Za'Darius Smith's contract...which again, closer to Terron Armstead who signed a 5/75 deal this past year with the Dolphins as the top LT on the market(which is really a ~3/48 deal). That was half of the best OT duo in the NFL the last several years.

If he were an URFA, I'd see him in the Morgan Mosses or George Fant range. That's 3/15.5 that Mosses just signed and Fant is on a 3/27M dollar deal...except in his case, year 1 will still be as a RFA. So you'd be giving him an extra 2 years and ~15M.

I suppose a team could look at the size and athleticism and really overpay, but that seems like a stretch. 

I hope you're right. They can put a 2nd round tender on him and if someone thinks he's worth 4/66 or something in that range, I'd happily take a 2nd round pick for him.

 

 

[CheezWizHed]

Maybe I'm off on overall numbers exactly (frankly, I don't pay attention to players on other teams nor what $$ they get).  But the point I was intending to get across was that I think he is in a situation very close to Z-Smith when we poached him from Baltimore. 

We agree that he is already an average NFL LT and has been improving.  He is also has great size and athleticism.  Someone is going to pony up some money to poach him.  Maybe not $15M/year, but certainly more than $6M/yr (the same money as a 1st round tender).  His agent would be foolish to sign him for backup money at 3 years and the Packers would be foolish to sign him to starter money but keep him as a backup.  

How Bahk comes back this year (and/or if Jenkins at RG and Yosh at RT works better than our current RG/RT) will determine what the Pack do with Yosh long term. 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

It will be interesting to follow Bahk's practice schedule this week. It appears they want him to practice twice a week, with a rest day somewhere in there. Last week he went Wednesday and Thursday, then sat out Friday. I wonder if that's going to be the norm? I fully expect him to appear as Questionable on the injury report. If they upgrade him to Probable, I'd say there's a 99% chance he plays this week. But Lafleur loves playing games with injury designations, so I don't expect that.

[Fear The Chorizo]

8 hours ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

It will be interesting to follow Bahk's practice schedule this week. It appears they want him to practice twice a week, with a rest day somewhere in there. Last week he went Wednesday and Thursday, then sat out Friday. I wonder if that's going to be the norm? I fully expect him to appear as Questionable on the injury report. If they upgrade him to Probable, I'd say there's a 99% chance he plays this week. But Lafleur loves playing games with injury designations, so I don't expect that.

Well, Bakh didn't practice today - and not exactly a "cautiously optimistic" pull quote from the head coach afterwards...

The Packers expected Bakhtiari to miss the first two weeks this season. LaFleur said Wednesday he has "no idea" if Bakhtiari will play this week.

"I don't even let my mind go there at this point," LaFleur said.

If the plan is 2 practices a week, I find it odd they would use Wednesday as his day off given the fact he's just had 5 prior days off from Friday-Tuesday.

[NBBrewFan]

Barry is coaching as if this would be his last chance if he screws up - play as conservative as possible.  

I was hoping for a top 10 defense and I think they have the talent, but I have serious doubts he can coach to their level.  Brady will pick the defense apart and we'll be wondering how we could lose another game to Tampa when they are down to their 4th/5th WR.

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, NBBrewFan said:

Barry is coaching as if this would be his last chance if he screws up - play as conservative as possible.  

I was hoping for a top 10 defense and I think they have the talent, but I have serious doubts he can coach to their level.  Brady will pick the defense apart and we'll be wondering how we could lose another game to Tampa when they are down to their 4th/5th WR.

Tampa is also down a ton of offensive lineman...I dont see them going up and down the field at will Sunday even if the packer defense isn't dominant

Thinking this is going to be a grind it out / defensive taffy pull-type game where the team that turns it over more loses.

[homer]

I'm more worried about Lenny than Tom.

 

[NBBrewFan]

52 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Tampa is also down a ton of offensive lineman...I dont see them going up and down the field at will Sunday even if the packer defense isn't dominant

Thinking this is going to be a grind it out / defensive taffy pull-type game where the team that turns it over more loses.

I'd feel a lot better if the DL wasn't pushed around more than a group of girl scouts playing their first roller derby game. Haven't seen much from them and maybe with a makeshift Oline for Tampa they can finally live up to the preseason hype, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[HarveysWBs]

I’m at the point where I expect nothing from Bakh.  Not this year, and not ever again. I’m not saying that out of bitterness, or trying to be glib about his injury, because it seems to me he’s been through heck and half a dozen procedures to get this thing right and he’s just snake bitten.

As such, there is absolutely no point in getting invested in the idea of him playing in games again. What would he even look like after nearly two years off anyway?  My mindset is that they have to win with Nijman, and I’ll be presently surprised if I’m wrong.  I didn’t start the year this way, but everything that’s happened since the off-season has just about convinced me he’s cooked.

[yourout]

12 minutes ago, HarveysWBs said:

I’m at the point where I expect nothing from Bakh.  Not this year, and not ever again. I’m not saying that out of bitterness, or trying to be glib about his injury, because it seems to me he’s been through heck and half a dozen procedures to get this thing right and he’s just snake bitten.

As such, there is absolutely no point in getting invested in the idea of him playing in games again. What would he even look like after nearly two years off anyway?  My mindset is that they have to win with Nijman, and I’ll be presently surprised if I’m wrong.  I didn’t start the year this way, but everything that’s happened since the off-season has just about convinced me he’s cooked.

+1...at this point if he ever plays meaningful minutes again it's a bonus.

[UpandIn]

13 hours ago, CheezWizHed said:

Maybe I'm off on overall numbers exactly (frankly, I don't pay attention to players on other teams nor what $$ they get).  But the point I was intending to get across was that I think he is in a situation very close to Z-Smith when we poached him from Baltimore. 

We agree that he is already an average NFL LT and has been improving.  He is also has great size and athleticism.  Someone is going to pony up some money to poach him.  Maybe not $15M/year, but certainly more than $6M/yr (the same money as a 1st round tender).  His agent would be foolish to sign him for backup money at 3 years and the Packers would be foolish to sign him to starter money but keep him as a backup.  

How Bahk comes back this year (and/or if Jenkins at RG and Yosh at RT works better than our current RG/RT) will determine what the Pack do with Yosh long term. 

Fair enough. I was just thinking from the Packers side of it, he has been a solidly average(maybe even above average) LT this year. I think Quinn plays every snap at ROLB, so over Yosh. Yosh got beat by him once on an awesome rush, but he was pretty solid. Vs Minny, it was mostly Hunter. 

There's also his run blocking which has been vastly improved(AJ Dillon driving me a little nuts missing the holes, but Aaron Jones certainly isn't). 

But it has only been 2 weeks and last year he was still a pretty poor starting LT. I don't think the Packers are prepared to extend anyone at this point, so it's moot, but I was just kinda thinking out loud...now could be a good time. They also have much bigger issues to deal with contractually. Gary and Jenkins are going to force the Packers to be even more creative and who they sign, how they structure it. 

And you're right, how Bahk plays(IF Bahk plays)...if he can play RT. Also how Jenkins plays RT. Not that I'm real worried about it, but he was not good this past week. He gets every mulligan in the world for that, but maybe, as you say, Jenkins may be better at G. All things we'll need to figure out before extending worrying about extending a RFA.

[UpandIn]

5 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Well, Bakh didn't practice today - and not exactly a "cautiously optimistic" pull quote from the head coach afterwards...

The Packers expected Bakhtiari to miss the first two weeks this season. LaFleur said Wednesday he has "no idea" if Bakhtiari will play this week.

"I don't even let my mind go there at this point," LaFleur said.

If the plan is 2 practices a week, I find it odd they would use Wednesday as his day off given the fact he's just had 5 prior days off from Friday-Tuesday.

Well...hopefully that just means his 2 days of practice will be Thursday and Friday. 

Tampa Bay has a nice natural grass stadium...the heat and the humidity should help Bahk's knee stay loose. 

If he doesn't play this week...

[Fear The Chorizo]

3 hours ago, homer said:

I'm more worried about Lenny than Tom.

 

He'll get plenty of carries, and probably quite a few balls thrown his way.  Would be nice for the Packer MLBs to have a solid game so Fournette doesn't become the focal point of an offense with a decimated receiving corps.  If I'm GB I'd sell out on the run early and play man behind it to force Brady into finding a matchup in the passing game that's actually favorable for them to move the ball consistently.  A gimpy Kevin King isn't going to be on the field in the Packer secondary Sunday.

[UpandIn]

2 hours ago, NBBrewFan said:

I'd feel a lot better if the DL wasn't pushed around more than a group of girl scouts playing their first roller derby game. Haven't seen much from them and maybe with a makeshift Oline for Tampa they can finally live up to the preseason hype, but I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm not worried about the DL getting pushed around. They've played pretty well. Their problem has been missed tackles again and when they don't rally. 

Montgomery popped a 28 yard run that should have been 7 yards but Savage came up and completely whiffed. Earl Thomas he was compared to. I don't know what he is yet. Year 4 and he's had a good year for a rookie, a really good year for a 2nd year player and then a pretty solidly below average last year.