Game Thread (8/21/2022): Brewers (Woodruff) at Cubs (Steele) - 1:20 PM CDT

[edfunderburk]

2 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

I doubt that, but he now has to figure out who sits the next few days to give him more ABs.

They will be seeing two lefties in LA. 

Play him against righties & Cutch against lefties through the end of the season

[BruisedCrew]

Did I doze off and miss a Brewers HR? I’m only counting 3 for the Brewers and 5 total for both teams, not 4 and 6 like BA just said. 

[treego14]

Rogers, then the Dodgers!

They may be a beast!  But we ain't the least!

We got the Keest!

Hip-Hip-Hiura!  We'll be there in a day!

[Pesky Johnny]

Trying to stay positive in the bottom of the ninth...

[treego14]

1 minute ago, Pesky Johnny said:

Trying to stay positive in top of the ninth...

Relax!

Rogers will add this to his save-stacks!

[HarryDoyle]

And the Brewers finish with a tidy 2-7 against the Cubs, Reds and Pirates in their last 9.

[treego14]

Brewers win ... let's grin!

[BruisedCrew]

Salvation for 1 day anyway. 

[Ro Mueller]

Go Diamondbacks, Nationals and Mets!!

[treego14]

Just now, HarryDoyle said:

And the Brewers finish with a tidy 2-7 against the Cubs, Reds and Pirates in their last 9.

1-0 in our last one!

Stop looking back!

Let's get on the attack!

[Brewcrew82]

Good come from behind win. Would have been hard to find a way to stay positive about this team's chances the rest of the season had they lost this one. Hopefully some of the other scores around the league turn out our way now. 

[folly412]

16 minutes ago, NBBrewFan said:

Post-game Interview:

Sofia: Craig, I asked awhile ago about Keston's playing time and you condescendingly indicated that you were putting the best team to win out there.  So today my question is - do you have your head shoved up your ass?

The actual "question" will be: "Craig, what about Keston Hiura?"

Tomorrow's recap of his response will be: I asked Craig Counsell about Keston Hiura's production after the game yesterday and he said Keston has worked really hard, he said he's giving them some much-needed production, he said he will continue to put the best lineup out there every day, he said with the way Keston is playing he said that will probably include Keston he said quite a bit going forward.

[BruisedCrew]

11 minutes ago, edfunderburk said:

Play him against righties & Cutch against lefties through the end of the season

Hiura has hit 2 HRs against lefties this week, so maybe for the next couple of days we can table the idea that playing him against LHP is a fireable offense. 
 

For at least the next few days I would have Hiura in the lineup at 18 for Tellez against the LHP and for McCutchen against Gonsolin. 
 

No reason to look beyond the next 3 days right now, 

[Brewcrew82]

I do wish the Brewers would've shown a pulse a little bit earlier because this thread was borderline unreadable for the most part...

[Nola Beery]

51 minutes ago, treego14 said:

No problemo!

He made the Cubs drink Drano!

Pity quote. ???

[Brewcrew82]

Brice Turang with another HR in AAA and is 2-2 so far. I would call him up and send down Brosseau at this point because Brosseau's defense is meh and he's not hitting lefties well enough lately. 

[Nola Beery]

13 minutes ago, folly412 said:

The actual "question" will be: "Craig, what about Keston Hiura?"

Tomorrow's recap of his response will be: I asked Craig Counsell about Keston Hiura's production after the game yesterday and he said Keston has worked really hard, he said he's giving them some much-needed production, he said he will continue to put the best lineup out there every day, he said with the way Keston is playing he said that will probably include Keston he said quite a bit going forward.

[he said] Well, he DID strike out; [so he said] send him back to Nashville.  bughghghgh.

 

[Sixtolezcano]

11 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I do wish the Brewers would've shown a pulse a little bit earlier because this thread was borderline unreadable for the most part...

No kidding. I totally agree with you there.

[Brewcrew82]

Just now, Sixtolezcano said:

No kidding.

Lol

[Nola Beery]

I don't depend on my team's winning a championship to make my life good (well... except maybe the Saints winning the Super Bowl; no, not really.)  But I will allow a nice win like today's to improve my mood for the rest of the evening!

Cheers!

[LouisEly]

19 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

Hiura has hit 2 HRs against lefties this week, so maybe for the next couple of days we can table the idea that playing him against LHP is a fireable offense. 
 

For at least the next few days I would have Hiura in the lineup at 18 for Tellez against the LHP and for McCutchen against Gonsolin. 
 

No reason to look beyond the next 3 days right now, 

I think the answer is bench Yelich, McCutchen in LF, Hiura as DH against the lefties.

[yourout]

41 minutes ago, edfunderburk said:

I agree & own the fact that I was a vocal opponent … glad there are people smarter than me baseball-wise running this organization

It would be such a win if Hiura plays well through the end of the season & is our 2023 DH

Same here...I really hated his mechanics.

Glad he has changed and is having success.

[BruisedCrew]

1 hour ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Okay. And when I refer to the facts, this is what I mean fwiw.  

OK, removed from the discussion about the game, let me explain where I’m coming from on this.

Terms like “aces” and “elite” are necessarily subjective, so I’m not going to get into a snit over those labels.

And WAR stats covering the last 3 seasons don’t remove my criticism about how Woodruff has pitched this season. If someone wants to be considered an elite ace, I’m going to set a high bar.

One of my standards for elite starting pitchers is that they consistently go deep into games while allowing very few runs. Sure, they aren’t going to do that every single game, but the Brewers top starters don’t cover 7 full innings as often as I think they need to, especially for a team that is offensively challenged and leans on those pitchers to lead them to a win, not just keep them in the game. 
 

Anyone who plays fantasy baseball sees what other top line starting pitchers do. I offer as an example Max Scherzer, who I have had on a Fantasy team for several years, but is not on your list of top 10 starters, probably because of an off year in the COVID season and injuries that have limited his appearances. 
 

Since Scherzer came off the IL in early July, his appearances have been:

 6 IP 0 ER

7 IP 1 ER

6.1 IP, 1 ER

6 IP 2 ER

7 IP, 0 ER

6.2 IP, 2 ER

7 IP, 0 ER

7 IP 1 ER

6.1 IP, 4 ER (3 of which came in the 7th inning which started with the Mets leading 7-1. Scherzer left after putting 3 men on base with one out and all of the inherited runners scored. For a “worst” outing it wasn’t that bad.

So, except for his first game back from injury (where he was pulled after 6 innings and 79 pitches after giving up no runs on 2 hits, Scherzer has pitched into the 7th inning every game, and completed 7 innings 4 times.

Woodruff by comparison for the whole season in 18 starts has only pitched into the 7th inning 4 times and completed 7 innings once. IMHO, getting pulled before finishing 6 innings because of inefficiency or ineffectiveness should be considered a disappointing start for an elite pitcher, and Woodruff has done that 10 times this year, including his last two  

Burnes has been quite a bit better, but he has only pitched into the 7th inning once in his last 6 starts, and I hope  for better than that from one of the best SP in MLB. Those short starts and giving up a lot of HR are a factor in the team’s recent struggles. 

If you think I’m being too critical, or have standards that are too high, I couldn’t care less. But everyone knew coming into this season that the Brewers needed their top starting pitchers to be exceptional to compensate for a subpar offense. I personally don’t think Woodruff has been exceptional this year  

 

 

[yourout]

32 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

OK, removed from the discussion about the game, let me explain where I’m coming from on this.

Terms like “aces” and “elite” are necessarily subjective, so I’m not going to get into a snit over those labels.

And WAR stats covering the last 3 seasons don’t remove my criticism about how Woodruff has pitched this season. If someone wants to be considered an elite ace, I’m going to set a high bar.

One of my standards for elite starting pitchers is that they consistently go deep into games while allowing very few runs. Sure, they aren’t going to do that every single game, but the Brewers top starters don’t cover 7 full innings as often as I think they need to, especially for a team that is offensively challenged and leans on those pitchers to lead them to a win, not just keep them in the game. 
 

Anyone who plays fantasy baseball sees what other top line starting pitchers do. I offer as an example Max Scherzer, who I have had on a Fantasy team for several years, but is not on your list of top 10 starters, probably because of an off year in the COVID season and injuries that have limited his appearances. 
 

Since Scherzer came off the IL in early July, his appearances have been:

 6 IP 0 ER

7 IP 1 ER

6.1 IP, 1 ER

6 IP 2 ER

7 IP, 0 ER

6.2 IP, 2 ER

7 IP, 0 ER

7 IP 1 ER

6.1 IP, 4 ER (3 of which came in the 7th inning which started with the Mets leading 7-1. Scherzer left after putting 3 men on base with one out and all of the inherited runners scored. For a “worst” outing it wasn’t that bad.

So, except for his first game back from injury (where he was pulled after 6 innings and 79 pitches after giving up no runs on 2 hits, Scherzer has pitched into the 7th inning every game, and completed 7 innings 4 times.

Woodruff by comparison for the whole season in 18 starts has only pitched into the 7th inning 4 times and completed 7 innings once. IMHO, getting pulled before finishing 6 innings because of inefficiency or ineffectiveness should be considered a disappointing start for an elite pitcher, and Woodruff has done that 10 times this year, including his last two  

Burnes has been quite a bit better, but he has only pitched into the 7th inning once in his last 6 starts, and I hope  for better than that from one of the best SP in MLB. Those short starts and giving up a lot of HR are a factor in the team’s recent struggles. 

If you think I’m being too critical, or have standards that are too high, I couldn’t care less. But everyone knew coming into this season that the Brewers needed their top starting pitchers to be exceptional to compensate for a subpar offense. I personally don’t think Woodruff has been exceptional this year  

 

 

Good stuff......If you could pick any pitcher in the MLB for a game 7 who would you choose?

[Brewcrew82]

12 minutes ago, BruisedCrew said:

OK, removed from the discussion about the game, let me explain where I’m coming from on this.

Terms like “aces” and “elite” are necessarily subjective, so I’m not going to get into a snit over those labels.

And WAR stats covering the last 3 seasons don’t remove my criticism about how Woodruff has pitched this season. If someone wants to be considered an elite ace, I’m going to set a high bar.

One of my standards for elite starting pitchers is that they consistently go deep into games while allowing very few runs. Sure, they aren’t going to do that every single game, but the Brewers top starters don’t cover 7 full innings as often as they should, especially for a team that is offensively challenged and leans on those pitchers to lead them to a win, not just keep them in the game. 
 

Anyone who plays fantasy baseball sees what other top line starting pitchers do. I offer as an example Max Scherzer, who I have had on a Fantasy team for several years, but is not on your list of top 10 starters, probably because of an off year in the COVID season and injuries that have limited his appearances. 
 

Since Scherzer came off the IL in early July, his appearances have been:

 6 IP 0 ER

7 IP 1 ER

6.1 IP, 1 ER

6 IP 2 ER

7 IP, 0 ER

6.2 IP, 2 ER

7 IP, 0 ER

7 IP 1 ER

6.1 IP, 4 ER (3 of which came in the 7th inning which started with the Mets leading 7-1. Scherzer left after putting 3 men on base with one out and all of the inherited runners scored. For a “worst” outing it wasn’t that bad.

So, except for his first game back from injury (where he was pulled after 6 innings and 79 pitches after giving up no runs on 2 hits, he has pitched into the 7th inning every game, and completed 7 innings 4 times.

 

 

As long as your argument isn't that Burnes isn't an ace, I can see wanting more from Woodruff, specifically as it relates to this season. However, Woody's numbers since coming off the IL are certainly ace-like and he's gone 6/7 innings in all but three of his outings, with one being his dominant start against the Rays where he was on a strict pitch limit. 

As regards Scherzer, yes he's been dominant since coming off the IL. But he's in a different historical class to begin with, and Woodruff's numbers since he came off the IL aren't even that far off from his. That's why you have to look at the whole picture, which the Fangraphs chart I highlighted does. Scherzer is not listed because he doesn't qualify due to injury, but if he did, he would rank 4th with Nola. Either way, there's room in the game for multiple aces, and virtually every baseball analyst would agree that Burnes, Scherzer, and Woodruff are all aces.