Brewers Acquire Owen Miller From CLE; Feliciano DFA'd

[beekay414]

4 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Justin Turner, Brandon Drury, Evan Longoria, Adam Duvall, Robbie Grossman, Wil Myers, Trey Mancini, Edwin Rios, Taylor Rogers, Andrew Chafin, Matt Moore, Cory Knebel, Michael Fulmer, Reyes Moronto, Chad Green, Trevor May, etc.

Any of those guys I could see the Brewers being interested in and are not out of their price range. "Second-tier" may be too loose of a term here as not all of these guys are that level, but they represent the next-best options now that the premier free agents have largely signed and would add something to the team for next season. 

I'll obviously agree on the bullpen options, since ours currently consists of Devin Williams and a bunch of fodder. Turner and Drury are obvious as well and should be prime targets. Longo's breaking down and likely wants to return to Tampa, so money is best spent elsewhere. Grossman and Myers add nothing that we can't find in house (Myers annoys the hell out of me, he's too talented to be as meh as he's been in his career). Mancini would be nice but I'm not sure he takes a 1 year deal and I'm also not sure we'd go 2 or more for a 1B/RF and Rios is a dart throw.

We'll see what happens.

[beekay414]

12 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

With JBJ, A LOT of people liked that signing at the time as insurance for the aging and oft-injured Lorenzo Cain. Nobody foresaw him suddenly ceasing to be a major league hitter at the age of 31. 

Who? Nobody in my circle bought into it. He had 1 outlier full season as an above average MLB hitter. The season we signed him off of was SSS and BABIP fueled. He had 3 full seasons of 89, 90 and 89 wRC+. Nothing about spending money on him made sense. Even taking out his last two putrid seasons, he was a career .239 hitter when we signed him. The signs were there for anyone looking.

[Redd Vencher]

18 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

No, I simply forgot about him because he fell in line with the "smart spending" that I specifically mentioned in that same post, so I'll eat crow there. JBJ was the one they sold to us as the big signing and then Cutch came next. We were basically lighting money on fire with those 2 and it hindered any type of in-season movement we could've made (Mark can spare me on the "money wasn't an issue" trade deadline debacle and pinning that all on Stearns. It's not a coincidence that Stearns stepped away the next chance he got).

The Brewers acquired Adames, Tellez, Escobar, Curtiss, and Norris in season in 2021. What move did McCutchen hinder in 2022?

[Brewcrew82]

4 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Who? Nobody in my circle bought into it. He had 1 outlier full season as an above average MLB hitter. The other even plus seasons were SSS and BABIP fueled. He had 3 full seasons of 89, 90 and 89 wRC+. Nothing about spending money on him made sense. Take out his last two putrid seasons and he was a career .239 hitter when we signed him. The signs were there for anyone looking.

People on this very site. It wasn't unanimous for sure, but there were plenty of people who liked the signing at the time, myself included. I don't think anyone expected him to be more than average with the bat, as the majority of his value has always come from his GG defense in the OF. What we didn't expect (and what there was no indication for) was him suddenly becoming the worst hitter in the majors, to the point where it negated all of his defensive value. 

I know the 2017-2020 version of JBJ would have been quite helpful for us this past season with Cain completely losing it...

[BallFour]

14 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Who? Nobody in my circle bought into it. He had 1 outlier full season as an above average MLB hitter. The season we signed him off of was SSS and BABIP fueled. He had 3 full seasons of 89, 90 and 89 wRC+. Nothing about spending money on him made sense. Even taking out his last two putrid seasons, he was a career .239 hitter when we signed him. The signs were there for anyone looking.

Why? because if he put up just those wRC+'s you posted he would have had added over 2 wins just because of his defense in the outfield, with elite defensive play in center field, which was important because Cain didn't play in 2020. He was a great complement to Cain and Garcia in theory. Did it work out? Absolutely not.

[beekay414]

8 minutes ago, Redd Vencher said:

The Brewers acquired Adames, Tellez, Escobar, Curtiss, and Norris in season in 2021. What move did McCutchen hinder in 2022?

Adames and Tellez made scraps in 2021. That's not the type of move I'm talking about. Instead of an Escobar, we could've made a play on a Bryant, Rizzo or Schwarber had we not paid JBJ.

2022? We literally traded a big piece off our team rather than build on it.

[Redd Vencher]

9 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Who? Nobody in my circle bought into it. He had 1 outlier full season as an above average MLB hitter. The season we signed him off of was SSS and BABIP fueled. He had 3 full seasons of 89, 90 and 89 wRC+. Nothing about spending money on him made sense. Even taking out his last two putrid seasons, he was a career .239 hitter when we signed him. The signs were there for anyone looking.

With his defense, a 89-90 wRC+ is a 2.5-3.0 WAR player. Basically the CF version of Wong (95 wRC+ with the Cardinals) for similar money.

[beekay414]

Slice it however you want, $12 Million for a 4th OF was a wasted resource. We got more value out of Tyrone Taylor in the same role.

[Brewcrew82]

13 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Adames and Tellez made scraps in 2021. That's not the type of move I'm talking about. Instead of an Escobar, we could've made a play on a Bryant, Rizzo or Schwarber had we not paid JBJ.

2022? We literally traded a big piece off our team rather than build on it.

I don't think there's any scenario in which the Cubs would have actually traded those players to us...

Plus we made calls on Scherzer and Reynolds. We were outbid and rebuffed...

[Robocaller]

Doesn't hit very well. Doesn't field terribly well. 
Brewerfans, this is the reason Turang will be in AAA on O.D.

He's an upside guy like Toro; they could have a breakout or they could be a AAAA guy for the rest of their career.

I'm sure he's overjoyed to play for his (nearly) hometown team.

Reasonably strong negative splits in ML, so doesn't help vs. LHP.

 

[beekay414]

2 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I don't think there's any scenario in which the Cubs would have actually traded those players to us...

Schwarber was a National at that time, just a FYI. Those were just examples...Jorge Soler (Royals), Joey Gallo (Rangers), Starling Marte (Marlins) are also other guys that were actually traded.

4 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Plus we made calls on Scherzer and Reynolds. We were outbid and rebuffed...

Making calls doesn't really mean anything. Just like we "made calls" on Juan Soto last year. 

[Robocaller]

And I feel bad about losing Feliciano, though I don't think he'd really be given a chance, except as a callup after an injury.

 

[Jopal78]

Those clamoring for the free agent signings should review their Brewers history. Most of their recent  free agent signings were at cut rate prices  or were one year deals. 
 

Clearly with the money being thrown around right now players aren’t going to be signing for cut rate prices or looking for one year deals, give it 6-8 weeks. 

[Robocaller]

2 hours ago, wibadgers23 said:

They sure are stockpiling the mediocre infielders, aren't they?  Seems like Hiura might be on his way out.

crappy infielders and crappy pitchers are the new market inequality. Or at least that seems what the Brewers' decisions suggest.

 

[wibadgers23]

Yeah best to just hang in there until February for any kind of free agent deals.  Guys typically don't sign with the Brewers until they've exhausted all other options and they're desperate.  

[Robocaller]

1 hour ago, Brewcrew82 said:

A little off-topic here. But with all of these WI natives (Jansen, Varsho, Lux, Miller, etc.) floating around in offseason discussions, it makes me so frustrated that my alma matter, the University of Wisconsin, continues to not field a baseball program. 

I didn't know they stopped having a baseball team (1991 was last year).

 

[Brewcrew82]

9 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Schwarber was a National at that time, just a FYI. Those were just examples...Jorge Soler (Royals), Joey Gallo (Rangers), Starling Marte (Marlins) are also other guys that were actually traded.

Making calls doesn't really mean anything. Just like we "made calls" on Juan Soto last year. 

I know about Schwarber. But I don't think it's accurate that JBJ was the single biggest reason we were unable to obtain those guys. Rather, it's the fact that those guys costed prospects and that the trading team had to be interested enough in our prospects compared to other contenders at a time when our farm system was ranked bottom 3 in the entire majors. 

Would you have been happy trading Frelick, Turang, or Mitchell for Gallo, Marte, or Soler? I sure wouldn't have, as none of those guys would have likely been enough on their own to win us the World Series that year. Soler was the World Series MVP, but the Braves won because Rosario, Freeman, D'Arnaud, etc. all went gangbusters during the playoffs whereas all of our hitters did the exact opposite. 

[CheeseheadInQC]

45 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

I'll obviously agree on the bullpen options, since ours currently consists of Devin Williams and a bunch of fodder. Turner and Drury are obvious as well and should be prime targets. Longo's breaking down and likely wants to return to Tampa, so money is best spent elsewhere. Grossman and Myers add nothing that we can't find in house (Myers annoys the hell out of me, he's too talented to be as meh as he's been in his career). Mancini would be nice but I'm not sure he takes a 1 year deal and I'm also not sure we'd go 2 or more for a 1B/RF and Rios is a dart throw.

We'll see what happens.

The case for Myers is that he is a righty who hits lefties well and could be a decent platoon bat at a relatively low price point.

[beekay414]

6 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Would you have been happy trading Frelick, Turang, or Mitchell for Gallo, Marte, or Soler?

Yes because prospects are prospects and none of them are of the elite variety so going for it is better than the half assed approach we've taken. I'd rather go after it and lose than watch that team score 6 runs in 4 games and blow what looks to be our last realistic shot at winning in this window. 

If it fails, you have Burnes, Woodruff and Hader (at that time) that you can recoup prospect value on down the line. 

Do you regret trading Michael Brantley and Matt LaPorta for CC Sabathia?

[Redd Vencher]

1 minute ago, beekay414 said:

Adames and Tellez made scraps in 2021. That's not the type of move I'm talking about. Instead of an Escobar, we could've made a play on a Bryant, Rizzo or Schwarber had we not paid JBJ.

2022? We literally traded a big piece off our team rather than build on it.

It was reported we made a play at Bryant, but the Cubs didn't want to deal him in division.

 

They did build on the roster at the deadline. They took on more money than they gave up at the deadline. 

[beekay414]

5 minutes ago, Redd Vencher said:

It was reported we made a play at Bryant, but the Cubs didn't want to deal him in division.

Again, those are just examples. 

5 minutes ago, Redd Vencher said:

They did build on the roster at the deadline. They took on more money than they gave up at the deadline. 

They didn't build on the roster, they tanked it. They weakened a position of strength and didn't get an impact bat while doing so. I'm not talking about a million or two, here. I'm talking significant money. The money we gave to McCutchen. I'm also not talking about spending money on the hole they created by making a misguided trade.

[Brewcrew82]

10 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Yes because prospects are prospects and none of them are of the elite variety so going for it is better than the half assed approach we've taken. I'd rather go after it and lose than watch that team score 6 runs in 4 games and blow what looks to be our last realistic shot at winning in this window. 

If it fails, you have Burnes, Woodruff and Hader (at that time) that you can recoup prospect value on down the line. 

Do you regret trading Michael Brantley and Matt LaPorta for CC Sabathia?

Okay. Well, that's a stance that I (and I suspect most others) will have to disagree with. Though, for all we know, a team could have wanted Chourio at the time, too. Frelick may not be "elite" but he's top 100 for a reason. 

I don't regret trading those guys for CC. But, then again, not every player acquired at the deadline is capable of single handedly carrying a team to the playoffs. Certainly not the guys you just listed. 

If the Brewers are going to win a World Series, they're going to have to do so by drafting and developing and smart, targeted spending, not by trading their best prospects for the Soler's, Gallo's, and Marte's of the world. 

[beekay414]

10 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Okay. Well, that's a stance that I (and I suspect most others) will have to disagree with.

Because fans overvalue their prospects. 

10 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

If the Brewers are going to win a World Series, they're going to have to do so by drafting and developing and smart, targeted spending, not by trading their best prospects for the Soler's, Gallo's, and Marte's of the world.

You have to subsidize your roster. You can't just draft and develop and target spend and win in this league. Plus, there's just no real way of saying this as a fact. You're simply overvaluing prospects. Windows close rapidly for small market teams and there's no guarantee Frelick, Mitchell and Turang amount to anything. LIS, they aren't elite prospects. 

10 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I don't regret trading those guys for CC. But, then again, not every player acquired at the deadline is capable of single handedly carrying a team to the playoffs. Certainly not the guys you just listed. 

Kyle Schwarber is incapable of single handedly lifting a team? Didn't he basically keep the NL Champion Phillies afloat this season when they were sputtering as a team? Jorge Soler is incapable of riding a heater? I mean, the man won World Series MVP for a reason (but you don't count that for convenience). Soler had a 132 wRC+ for the Braves and hit 14 HR in 55 games. You're right, he wouldn't have made any difference for us. My bad. Only would have cost us money to acquire but we couldn't take that gamble because of JBJ.

[UpandIn]

2 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Thing that hurts Brosseau is his subpar defense and inability to play SS, or even 2B. Plus, last season he didn't even hit LHP all that extraordinarily with a .764 OPS. Granted, it's better than what some of our hitters did, but for someone whose calling-card is hitting LHP it's not enough. 

He's played quite a bit of 2nd and has been +1 OAA or 0 for his career. He can also play 1st which could the whole IF defense. Also, while that wasn't a great OPS vs LPH that was our 2nd highest OPS vs lefties...IIRC. Renfroe being our highest. And his career line is ~.830, so seems like a safe bet he'll be at worst that next year. For a guy who can play an at least passable 1B/2B/3B...and even fill in at SS if needed...AND he's cheap? Seems like with our current roster, he should be a no-brainer. Hiura, I'd love to see him back, but it's gotten hard to justify. I think he's included as a throw in, or he gets camp to see if he can earn a spot(though at this point, he's guaranteed 2M, so I don't know what they'll do with him).  

Anyway, now we've got Contreras who hit over 1.000 vs lefties, but I wouldn't expect him to hit quite THAT well. 

It's still a pretty big weakness. That and the backend of our pen...which we seem to be kinda collecting power arms and hoping someone jumps out(not an unreasonable approach IMO). 

[Brewcrew82]

2 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Because fans overvalue their prospects. 

You have to subsidize your roster. You can't just draft and develop and target spend and win in this league. Plus, there's just no real way of saying this as a fact. You're simply overvaluing prospects. Windows close rapidly for small market teams and there's no guarantee Frelick, Mitchell and Turang amount to anything. LIS, they aren't elite prospects. 

Kyle Schwarber is incapable of single handedly lifting a team? Didn't he basically keep the NL Champion Phillies afloat this season when they were sputtering as a team? Jorge Soler is incapable of riding a heater, I mean, the man won World Series MVP for a reason (but you don't count that for convenience). 

Whatever, my dude. You're right, I'm wrong. Let's just hoard our prospects and cling to hope, rather than actually trying to win for real. Bites at the apple and all!

As I said, the Braves didn't win the World Series because of Jorge Soler, even though he was the World Series MVP. They won because 4-6 of their other hitters (Rosario, Pederson, Freeman, D'Arnaud, etc.) also got hot at the same time. 

Our hitters? The exact opposite. So, no, adding Jorge Soler would not have won us the World Series in 2021.

You brought up CC. What he did was probably the single greatest performance by a trade deadline acquisition in MLB history, and it brought us our first postseason appearance in 26 years. I'm glad we gave up Brantley and LaPorta for that. But that's not the typical scenario....

There's a significant difference between hoarding prospects and drafting and developing as a small market franchise....