2023-24 Bucks Season Thread

[SomewhereInTime]

On 4/30/2024 at 3:38 PM, LouisEly said:

Yes and no.  The NBA is kind of like MLB in that all you need to do is just enough to get into the playoffs.  Rest Giannis, Khris, and Lillard as much as feasible on non-nationally televised games and try to pick up some players who were bought out of their contract who think that playing with Giannis/Khris/Lillard give them a shot.  Go for the #7 or #6 seed and see what happens.

But they should explore a Giannis trade.

Are there a lot of #6 or #7 seeds that win titles?  Yeah they don't have to do much to make the playoffs when 20/30 teams get in but going forward that's probably all they'll do is just make the playoffs.

[Joseph Zarr]

This Bucks season ending is for the best. 

Boy trading 5 2nd Rd picks for Crowder was a big Horst gaffe. 

I think it is quite obvious from here:

- Let Beasley and Crowder walk

- Absolutely resign Pat Bev (for crying out loud they better do this)

- Try to pkg BroLo and/or Bobby with their 2024 Draft Capital for aomething better and younger - IF that is possible.

- Fill roster w quality Vet Mins
 

I don't really care if Horst stays or goes. I saw Detroit might be a possibility. If Bud was expendable, Horst absolutely is. 

Anyhow, this season was brutal. And we'll always remember Game 5. 

[LouisEly]

7 hours ago, SomewhereInTime said:

Are there a lot of #6 or #7 seeds that win titles?  Yeah they don't have to do much to make the playoffs when 20/30 teams get in but going forward that's probably all they'll do is just make the playoffs.

Just last year the Heat were an 8 seed and made the finals. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

7 hours ago, Joseph Zarr said:

This Bucks season ending is for the best. 

Boy trading 5 2nd Rd picks for Crowder was a big Horst gaffe. 

I think it is quite obvious from here:

- Let Beasley and Crowder walk

- Absolutely resign Pat Bev (for crying out loud they better do this)

- Try to pkg BroLo and/or Bobby with their 2024 Draft Capital for aomething better and younger - IF that is possible.

- Fill roster w quality Vet Mins
 

I don't really care if Horst stays or goes. I saw Detroit might be a possibility. If Bud was expendable, Horst absolutely is. 

Anyhow, this season was brutal. And we'll always remember Game 5. 

I find it kind of mystifying that Horst is any kind of hot item. His "plan" has been have Giannis and get a bunch of breaks one year. Yeah, there's some stuff they got right (Tucker, Holiday) but for the most part the development of the roster has been horrendous.

[SomewhereInTime]

46 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

Just last year the Heat were an 8 seed and made the finals. 

As the second #8 seed to ever do so, neither won the finals.  In hockey I agree, just get in, far more variance in that sport.  In baseball too since every postseason series is pretty close to 50/50.  In the history of the NBA, two teams that finished 4th or lower in their conference have won the finals.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

1 hour ago, SomewhereInTime said:

As the second #8 seed to ever do so, neither won the finals.  In hockey I agree, just get in, far more variance in that sport.  In baseball too since every postseason series is pretty close to 50/50.  In the history of the NBA, two teams that finished 4th or lower in their conference have won the finals.

It's definitely a more recent trend though. I think load management has changed a lot. The season is just too long with too many back-to-backs to be overly concerned with seed. In the NBA I grew up watching there were usually 2-4 teams that you pretty much knew would be in the CFs and they rarely finished below 2. It's still sort of like that, but seems much more common that they end the season in 3rd or 4th than 1st, as well as low seeds moving past 1 round which was unheard of in the East for many years.

The Bucks finishing 3rd wouldn't have been a big deal, it was more that they just never looked good at any point. In a single game maybe, but they just never seemed to gel. There was something off about this team all year long and I think everyone was hoping they'd hit another gear later on, but it never happened. 

[patrickgpe]

Not saying anything anyone doesn't know. Poor drafting and trading most of their picks did them in. They had a strong starting lineup when healthy, but literally one decent bench player. I don't see how it gets better minus trading 1-2 players for picks and young players. Literally the last 2 games on the road, bucks played them tough for 3 quarters and ran out of gas. Bench scoring yesterday was 50-10. can't win like that. 

Rumors are hot that Horst will be POBO for the Pistons, which I'm fine with. He did great during his time and won a chip, but coaching hires / fires  and draft picks have really been bad. 

[Brewin]

2 minutes ago, patrickgpe said:

Not saying anything anyone doesn't know. Poor drafting and basically not having any picks did them in. They had a strong starting lineup when healthy, but literally one decent bench player. I don't see how it gets better minus trading 1-2 players for picks and young players. 

Rumors are hot that Horst will be POBO for the Pistons, which I'm fine with. He did great during his time and won a chip, but coaching hires / fires  and draft picks have really been bad. 

I think losing Horst might hurt more than some of you think. If you believe the rumor mill, he was not the one making the decisions. He wanted Nick Nurse, GA said no, they hired Griffin. He wanted Kenny Atkinson to replace Griffin, GA said no, they hired Doc. I understand in the NBA you need to cater to your star players, but I wish the stars would just be players and not try to be bad quasi-GM's.

[patrickgpe]

14 minutes ago, Brewin said:

I think losing Horst might hurt more than some of you think. If you believe the rumor mill, he was not the one making the decisions. He wanted Nick Nurse, GA said no, they hired Griffin. He wanted Kenny Atkinson to replace Griffin, GA said no, they hired Doc. I understand in the NBA you need to cater to your star players, but I wish the stars would just be players and not try to be bad quasi-GM's.

ownership is definitely involved more than most teams. Also the team is appeasing their star, and not making the best basketball decisions. terrified he will demand to go to a large market.

This is what happened in Cleveland for Lebron's first run. 

[Joseph Zarr]

3 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

I find it kind of mystifying that Horst is any kind of hot item. His "plan" has been have Giannis and get a bunch of breaks one year. Yeah, there's some stuff they got right (Tucker, Holiday) but for the most part the development of the roster has been horrendous.

He's definitely hit on some things and he's definitely missed on some others. Regardless of how the fire Bud and coaching hire quagmire actually went down, the Buck probably has to stop at him. That Stotts scenario? Yeah. They are paying 3 HC salaries. AND they are precariously close to the 2nd Apron (I believe getting bounced prevented Middleton salary kickers so they fell back under?) with very very little future assets. Thankfully they some draft capital to work with this season. AND, I fear he'll trade it again for a weak return. Anyhow, I'm completely ambivalent if he stays or goes. I just think he's a middle-of-the-road basketball mind. 

[sveumrules]

KEEP
Giannis, Lillard, Khris, Bobby, AJG, AJJ, MarJon, Livingston, Thanasis

RE-SIGN
PatBev

DEAL
Brook ($23M), Patty C ($9.4M)

Would prefer to keep both picks this year but understand they might need to include them to facilitate deals elsewhere.

Pretty much the same thing with Bobby, would prefer they keep him but also understand he’s probably their most valuable asset outside the Big 3 so might end up getting dealt.

[patrickgpe]

why keep marjon? Doc refuses to play him. I'm fine with the rest of it.  Also AJJ not getting in the game yesterday when it was falling apart was questionable. 

Also I agree that they should try to keep their picks unless they are to bring in players are on a rookie deal and not broker a player on the wrong side of 30. 

[LouisEly]

6 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

It's definitely a more recent trend though. I think load management has changed a lot. The season is just too long with too many back-to-backs to be overly concerned with seed.

Not only that, but you see a lot more buyouts of players on non-contenders, creating free agents later in the season.  That's how Miami did it last year, signing Kevin Love among others.  That has come down a little with the play-in games for #9 and #10 seeds, but other sports don't have the free agents available late in the season like the NBA (started seeing it a little in MLB last year).

Picking up Kevin Love as a FA and Duncan Robinson coming back from injury and missing 40 of their games was what did the Bucks in.

[nate82]

A few trade options:

Lopez to the Grizzlies for Smart.

I think the Bucks would do this but I am not sure the Grizzlies would.  This would give the Bucks a true PG in Smart.  He could either be the backup PG or you could possibly move him to SG though I am not sure that would be the best fit for Smart.  I really like Smart and I think he just had a bad year with the Grizzlies. 

This is probably too many players moving around.  But the Warriors need to cut with Thompson being up for a new contract. 

This also resets the Hawks a bit allowing them to get out of the Bogdanovic deal one year earlier with taking on Wiggins.  The Bucks get a younger C in Capela and also get a scoring SG in Bogdanovic when healthy.  The only bad part of this trade is that the Bucks have to give up Bobby in this deal.  

Not many other teams you could trade with.  The only other option would be another 3-team trade with the Warriors and 76ers with Wiggins and Connaughton going to the 76ers and I am not sure what would be coming back for the Bucks maybe a 2nd round pick or a late 1st round pick maybe?

[LouisEly]

I don't remember seeing this mentioned here, but game 5 was the first time in the history of the NBA that a team won a playoff game with both of their top two scorers from the regular season out.

This is not a bad team.

[BrewerFan]

14 hours ago, patrickgpe said:

Not saying anything anyone doesn't know. Poor drafting and trading most of their picks did them in. They had a strong starting lineup when healthy, but literally one decent bench player. I don't see how it gets better minus trading 1-2 players for picks and young players. Literally the last 2 games on the road, bucks played them tough for 3 quarters and ran out of gas. Bench scoring yesterday was 50-10. can't win like that. 

Rumors are hot that Horst will be POBO for the Pistons, which I'm fine with. He did great during his time and won a chip, but coaching hires / fires  and draft picks have really been bad. 

Has it been? I don't know that to be the case. 

Andre Jackson Jr has looked like an absolute STEAL in the 2nd rd. He's everything PJ Tucker was, but a ball handler, good passer, facilitator, and mostly a WINNER.

Under Bud, there was a trip to the finals in which Jevon Carter LEGITIMATELY may have turned the series, a 7 game series in which he was a HUGE + for the Bucks in favor of George Hill.

Now, no team is winning in the playoffs without their top 2 players healthy. ONE game in NBA history when a team won with their top 2 scorers out(that was the Bucks gm5).

 

You have Dame, Middleton(this version of Middleton was an outstanding #3 option) and Giannis. Giannis takes Siakam out of the game, but ignoring the fact he couldn't have played anyway, WHY ARE THE BUCKS THE WAY THEY ARE!

You have young players who they just refuse to play. Beauchamp and Jackson Jr should be playing. I'm hopeful a full year with Doc they will play him more, but it's absolutely mind-blowing. 

I really think if AJJ plays, a guy who can defend Siakam and Haliburton at a competent level. Couple that with Pat Bev(his clownish behavior and all)...Portis, Beasley, a few minutes of Reed, see if he's playing well, a few of Beauchamp to just put pressure and wear down their PG, give the vets some time to rest...a MUCH better option than Dano, Connaughton, Crowder, etc...

What is the reluctance? 

Edit- Hadn't seen @LouisEly posted this, but that's fluke stuff you can't help. Playing the guys who match up the best...that is. You get Giannis back(and it turns out they weren't)...and you magically get healthy vs Boston, you're going to get torn up again if you refuse to play AJJ/Beauchamp on Tatum or Brown.

 

I do think this series goes 4-1 at best if the Bucks are healthy, but that's just the way things go.

Quote

 

I don't remember seeing this mentioned here, but game 5 was the first time in the history of the NBA that a team won a playoff game with both of their top two scorers from the regular season out.

This is not a bad team.

 

 

[BrewerFan]

6 hours ago, nate82 said:

A few trade options:

Lopez to the Grizzlies for Smart.

I think the Bucks would do this but I am not sure the Grizzlies would.  This would give the Bucks a true PG in Smart.  He could either be the backup PG or you could possibly move him to SG though I am not sure that would be the best fit for Smart.  I really like Smart and I think he just had a bad year with the Grizzlies. 

This is probably too many players moving around.  But the Warriors need to cut with Thompson being up for a new contract. 

This also resets the Hawks a bit allowing them to get out of the Bogdanovic deal one year earlier with taking on Wiggins.  The Bucks get a younger C in Capela and also get a scoring SG in Bogdanovic when healthy.  The only bad part of this trade is that the Bucks have to give up Bobby in this deal.  

Not many other teams you could trade with.  The only other option would be another 3-team trade with the Warriors and 76ers with Wiggins and Connaughton going to the 76ers and I am not sure what would be coming back for the Bucks maybe a 2nd round pick or a late 1st round pick maybe?

They can't make this trade unless I'm mistaken.

Over the 2nd apron, you can't add players together and can't take more back in trades. 

I also just reject the idea that Lopez was or is the problem. When you have Giannis out there with Lopez, the defenese is fine. Lopez is just not the problem. If they can deal him and find a way to get better, great, but Clint Capella isn't it. 

That trade doesn't make the Bucks better. The Bucks playing and developing their own young players is a far bigger issue. A 7'1 Center who can hit the 3 and who can score around the basket...he's not the problem because he can't defend on the perimeter. 

 

And again, a lineup of say Dame/Jackson Jr/Middleton/Giannis/Lopez, that's a lineup that can score well enough.

A 2nd unit of Pat Bev/Beasly/Beauchamp/Connaughton/Portis was good enough.

 

Tyler Smith from the G League, a 6'11 long defender who can shoot the 3, but doesn't like to, but can defend, he's the projected pick at #22, Hunter Sallis, a 6'5 guard who's a sharp shooter, ball handler...that's the type of player they need to go after. A big, not to replace Lopez, but to work in so he can take over and learn from Lopez and a ball handling Guard who can at least try and defend and get the ball moving.

 

Giannis came out and STRONGLY...expressed his desire and commitment to Milwaukee and seemed a bit annoyed to be asked again. But I think the Bucks have ONE more year.

Run it back, lean on the young guys more, HOPE that the big 4 older guys can stay healthy and I think that's your last run-unless you make a deep and real run or unless one of these guys steps in and they're Desmond Bane or both contribute or are ALLOWED to contribute right away.

 

Trade Portis and Connaughton, but you're not going to get much back IMO. Trading Lopez is hurting your team in virtually every scenario.

Lopez can't play without Giannis, but we can't win without him anyway, so...gotta run it back with him. There's no 1 for 1 trade for a cheaper player that'll make us better. 

[SomewhereInTime]

15 hours ago, Brewin said:

I think losing Horst might hurt more than some of you think. If you believe the rumor mill, he was not the one making the decisions. He wanted Nick Nurse, GA said no, they hired Griffin. He wanted Kenny Atkinson to replace Griffin, GA said no, they hired Doc. I understand in the NBA you need to cater to your star players, but I wish the stars would just be players and not try to be bad quasi-GM's.

Evidently not since he doesn't get to make big decisions anyway

[BrewerFan]

16 hours ago, SomewhereInTime said:

Evidently not since he doesn't get to make big decisions anyway

I'm a bit skeptical of the stories. 

1-I think he wanted AG. I don't think he specifically didn't want Nurse...though that story is the most reported. Maybe it's just because he viewed Nurse as more of a rival if so? That'd be a dumb reasons.

2-Don't buy the Atkinson one at all. Doc was already helping out in Milwaukee. He was the obvious...albeit bad- choice. I definitely don't mind a new voice though. Someone who's going to say "we're drafting this 19-year-old Tyler Smith, he may take a little while to develop, but at least he has a chance to be an impact player. This is really it. You don't need a Kawhi, but you need a really good player at #22...and that's rare. But, it is what it is.

 

It is a relief that Dame and Giannis both immediately quelled any doubts about their future and talked about having to be better. Especially Dame who said something like last off-season was the worst he ever had, he didn't want to play too much as that could have led to an injury, now he can't get traded and promised to come back in the best shape of his life.

There's still a scenario where those guys play ~65 games(all 3) and they're healthy for the playoffs and Doc plays the young guys more and we've got another run in us. It's not a great one. It's unlikely Middleton will play as well with Dame and Giannis as he did this year, but...what's the alternative? Shut this thread down and give up on the Bucks?

[nate82]

18 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Lopez can't play without Giannis, but we can't win without him anyway, so...gotta run it back with him. There's no 1 for 1 trade for a cheaper player that'll make us better.

Even with Giannis Lopez is still slower than slow.  He has to be the slowest player on the court in nearly every single game and he is not going to become a quicker player next year.  Age has caught up to him and he can't stay in front of even your average center.  He has to play in drop coverage and that just doesn't work in the playoffs as Lopez gets absolutely picked apart in the playoffs when playing drop coverage.  The Bucks are basically playing 4 on 5 when Lopez is in the game during the playoffs.  Portis is the better defender at C in the playoffs.  Lopez is no longer an elite defender at C in the playoffs he just isn't.  Even when he is in the paint teams are just coming straight at him and winning when they are doing this. 

Lopez is not worth his contract anymore.  If the Hawks would be good with it I would go with a Capela for Lopez trade but I don't see the Hawks even slightly agreeing to this. 

[BrewerFan]

27 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Even with Giannis Lopez is still slower than slow.  He has to be the slowest player on the court in nearly every single game and he is not going to become a quicker player next year.  Age has caught up to him and he can't stay in front of even your average center.  He has to play in drop coverage and that just doesn't work in the playoffs as Lopez gets absolutely picked apart in the playoffs when playing drop coverage.  The Bucks are basically playing 4 on 5 when Lopez is in the game during the playoffs.  Portis is the better defender at C in the playoffs.  Lopez is no longer an elite defender at C in the playoffs he just isn't.  Even when he is in the paint teams are just coming straight at him and winning when they are doing this. 

Lopez is not worth his contract anymore.  If the Hawks would be good with it I would go with a Capela for Lopez trade but I don't see the Hawks even slightly agreeing to this. 

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. 

I think Lopez gets scapegoated like he's supposed to be a 7'1 rim protector who can score in the paint, shoot the three AND defend in space? That's asking WAY too much. 

You stop the ball, Lopez is still fine. and I'm still taking Lopez next to Giannis over Capella.

People also said Gobert was unplayable in the post-season for years in Utah. 

We got Andre Jackson Jr, Beauchamp to stop the ball...then didn't use them. Far bigger problem than Lopez and the difference between he and Capella. 

[HarryDoyle]

On 5/2/2024 at 7:44 PM, adambr2 said:

Turns out Game 5 was just a blip on the radar. In no way did they show up ready to build off of it today. 

Pacers are nothing special. They'll get bounced in the next round by either potential opponent. 

They didn't. The Pacers are better than they're given credit for. They're a great shooting team. Even Brunson wouldn't have saved them today. I'm not saying they'll beat Boston but I wouldn't be surprised if it went seven games. The Bucks never stood a chance against them.

[BrewerFan]

On 5/3/2024 at 6:13 AM, LouisEly said:

Just last year the Heat were an 8 seed and made the finals. 

Yeah...I don't agree with the take that it's like MLB...just get in.

I think the "better team," wins far more often in Basketball than in MLB.

That said...I think it's more about the Bucks just getting in...with their core healthy. That's the key.

They're healthy and they're blowing the doors off that Pacer team. They were a possession away from winning one game when the Pacers got 5,6 it may have been 7 shots with ~3 minutes left and the game tied.

Put Giannis in and he'd have dominated Siakam. 

We missed the window to be a dominant team and win 3 or more titles. That would have required beating the Raptors, then the Covid year. But we're still more than capable of getting hot, healthy and going on another run to win one. 

[BrewerFan]

On 5/19/2024 at 7:19 PM, HarryDoyle said:

They didn't. The Pacers are better than they're given credit for. They're a great shooting team. Even Brunson wouldn't have saved them today. I'm not saying they'll beat Boston but I wouldn't be surprised if it went seven games. The Bucks never stood a chance against them.

They did with a healthy Giannis. That Pacer team is good and talented and not beating the Bucks in 7 games if healthy.

But...as Forrest Gump said...it happens in sports. We may not win our Title if the Nets are healthy, we may have won a Title when Middleton was hurt vs Boston.

In BOTH cases the truly frustrating thing wasn't the injuries or the losing...as bad as that was. It was the veteran coaches just refusing to play the young guys bringing energy and extra possessions(while playing great defense).

Jevon Carter was playing so much better than George Hill, HE may have changed a series(probably not, but possibly).

And AJJ was playing so well that...you could have just picked one of 4-5 players and he'd have made a huge difference. Crowder(who I think is actually very useful relative to his salary, but not as a guy getting heavy rotation minutes, it's matchup-dependent). But Connaughton, Beasley, even Portis at times. 

When Dame and Khris were on the floor, you should have had AJJ on the floor. 

[HarryDoyle]

1 minute ago, BrewerFan said:

They did with a healthy Giannis. That Pacer team is good and talented and not beating the Bucks in 7 games if healthy.

But...as Forrest Gump said...it happens in sports. We may not win our Title if the Nets are healthy, we may have won a Title when Middleton was hurt vs Boston.

In BOTH cases the truly frustrating thing wasn't the injuries or the losing...as bad as that was. It was the veteran coaches just refusing to play the young guys bringing energy and extra possessions(while playing great defense).

Jevon Carter was playing so much better than George Hill, HE may have changed a series(probably not, but possibly).

And AJJ was playing so well that...you could have just picked one of 4-5 players and he'd have made a huge difference. Crowder(who I think is actually very useful relative to his salary, but not as a guy getting heavy rotation minutes, it's matchup-dependent). But Connaughton, Beasley, even Portis at times. 

When Dame and Khris were on the floor, you should have had AJJ on the floor. 

They beat us 4 out of 5 times with Giannis. Why would you think it would be different this time?