Heyman on CC (Will Craig Counsell be the Brewer manager next year?)

[recte44]

4 hours ago, True Blue Brew Crew said:

Uhh, this quote from Attanasio isn't reassuring at all...

https://theathletic.com/4918707/2023/10/02/milwaukee-brewers-success-mark-attanasio-playoffs/

Mark talking about CC contemplating challenges elsewhere doesn't seem to be something that would be said out loud with no basis

This quote makes all the speculation real

[Brewcrew82]

4 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

If Counsell leaves, I don't think money was the motivating factor. The main reason if he doesn't return, our roster is about to nosedive. Adames is gone (though he isn't that great it seems), Burnes is gone, and Woodruff is gone, heck even Miley is gone. It is pretty doubtful all those guys return...if they were, Counsell probably would stick around another year. I don't care how optimistic you are, deep down, you know this team is going to be quite low odds to make the postseason in upcoming years. We probably aren't going to run out there and lose 90+ games, but our starting rotation is not pretty looking after we lose two Cy Young candidates.

I always figured he would bail after the year to be with his family (didn't care much to manage elsewhere), but if Counsell 100% wants to manage next year...yah, Milwaukee isn't really a great gig. Getting a WC spot would be a success in 2024+.

As far as this award, the award is kind of dumb and subjective. Counsell would win the award if it was based on the last 5 years of tenure...but it basically awards the surprising team of the year. Which is fine, or else the same manager would just by default year over year. 

You say this like we don't have a consensus top 3 farm system in the game with young, developing talent already on the roster....We're following the Rays model. 

There may be a slight dip for a year or two, or there might not be. But a "nosedive", especially in the current expanded playoffs, is improbable. 

[Brewcrew82]

If CC does up and leave (which I'm still skeptical of), then I hope we don't feel compelled to simply promote Pat Murphy. Kevin Seitzer, for example, is a guy we should be taking a long and hard look at.

[wiguy94]

3 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

If CC does up and leave (which I'm still skeptical of), then I hope we don't feel compelled to simply promote Pat Murphy. Kevin Seitzer, for example, is a guy we should be taking a long and hard look at.

I don't get the infatuation with Seitzer as a manager candidate. He's literally never been a manger in his coaching career. He's only been a hitting coach. Sure he's been a great hitting coach, but what am I missing? Chris Hook is a great pitching coach is he someone we should consider for manager? 

[jerichoholicninja]

I really doubt Murphy would take over. He was brought in because he's Craig's friend. If Craig were to go somewhere else I'm sure he would take him along.

[Brewcrew82]

9 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

I don't get the infatuation with Seitzer as a manager candidate. He's literally never been a manger in his coaching career. He's only been a hitting coach. Sure he's been a great hitting coach, but what am I missing? Chris Hook is a great pitching coach is he someone we should consider for manager? 

CC didn't have any coaching, let alone managing experience when we hired him....

The allure of Seitzer is pretty clear imo with his being in charge of the Braves' hitting regime. I think we could use some new ideas there at the major league level to pair with our already elite pitching development system. The exact sort of thing you want with this contingent of young hitting prospects we have as they enter the most crucial stage of their development. 

There's other candidates out there, too, that are more appealing than Murphy imo. 

[wiguy94]

Just now, Brewcrew82 said:

CC didn't have any coaching, let alone managing experience when we hired him....

The allure of Seitzer is pretty clear imo with his being in charge of the Braves' hitting regime. I think we could use some new ideas there at the major league level to go with our already elite pitching development system. The exact sort of thing you want with this contingent of young hitting prospects we have. 

Counsell was being groomed for a manager role with his position in the front office (should note it's the same position that Carlos Villanueva currently holds). Hitting coach and manager are vastly different roles. If the idea behind Seitzer is strictly trying to emulate the Braves hitting development then just poach someone from the Braves FO/development team. 

[Brewcrew82]

11 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Counsell was being groomed for a manager role with his position in the front office (should note it's the same position that Carlos Villanueva currently holds). Hitting coach and manager are vastly different roles. If the idea behind Seitzer is strictly trying to emulate the Braves hitting development then just poach someone from the Braves FO/development team. 

I never said he should be the guy, but he should certainly be on the list of candidates due to helming the Braves' offense. Villanueva is actually one of those guys I think should be up there, too. Same with Stephen Vogt. 

While different jobs, it's not like there's zero hitting coaches who have gone on to become successful managers. 

 

[RobertCrawley]

11 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Counsell was being groomed for a manager role with his position in the front office (should note it's the same position that Carlos Villanueva currently holds). Hitting coach and manager are vastly different roles. If the idea behind Seitzer is strictly trying to emulate the Braves hitting development then just poach someone from the Braves FO/development team. 

I agree with this. A manager of course needs to know his stuff and make good decisions, but the most important asset of a team manager in most professional organizations is leadership -- can you create an atmosphere where players buy in to the plan and to winning. 

[wiguy94]

11 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

 While different jobs, it's not like there's zero hitting coaches who have gone on to become successful managers. 

Seems like it's not a very common jump. Who are examples of guys that went from MLB hitting coach to manager and were successful?

[SRB]

I love the narrative of Counsell managing the hometown Brewers, he's a very likeable presence, and I hope he stays for a long time, but does anyone actually care that much if he leaves?

I don't think it's hard to find a replacement manager who can make equally good strategy calls and manage the clubhouse equally well. There are still some teams who put incompetent dinosaurs out there but I'm confident in our front office finding an adequate replacement. Not sure it's worth paying him an extra $3 million if the Mets are willing to blow him out of the water financially.

[MrTPlush]

3 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

You say this like we don't have a consensus top 3 farm system in the game with young, developing talent already on the roster....We're following the Rays model. 

There may be a slight dip for a year or two, or there might not be. But a "nosedive", especially in the current expanded playoffs, is improbable. 

Again, I said it in my post I don't envision them rebuilding and turning into a 90 loss team. Getting the final wild card only takes about 85 wins. Is that going to be a push once Burnes/Woodruff hit the road? Sure seems like what you would label their ceiling.

Certainly, we have lots to love offensively in the minors. Pitching...well, that is pretty yikes. Burnes/Woodruff are pretty hard to replace and the difference between being WS contenders and .500ish fodder trying to sneak into the last spot. I have always been a supporter of extending Woodruff to help bridge the gap rotation wise. If you take those two out of the equation you have Freddy Peralta and a pile of garbage. There are a few guys down in the minors, but odds are one or two totally flop or severely underperform their potential. 

Moral of the story, Brewers are going to be entering a massive loss of talent this offseason/next season and you gotta be pretty optimistic about a lot of guys who haven't even seen the MLB field to explain how they won't be struggling after 2024. Maybe the offense finds enough young guys to actually be a pretty good unit...but that rotation is going to need a little magic/luck to not weigh them down. 

Not sure the Mets situation is as dreamy as it looked 12 months ago, but certainly there is a lot of money/talent to be had over there. A lot better looking than the Brewers at face value. But of course...one could have said that 12 months ago too, but our season went the exact opposite. 

[Brewcrew82]

1 minute ago, MrTPlush said:

Again, I said it in my post I don't envision them rebuilding and turning into a 90 loss team. Getting the final wild card only takes about 85 wins. Is that going to be a push once Burnes/Woodruff hit the road? Sure seems like what you would label their ceiling.

Certainly, we have lots to love offensively in the minors. Pitching...well, that is pretty yikes. Burnes/Woodruff are pretty hard to replace and the difference between being WS contenders and .500ish fodder trying to sneak into the last spot. I have always been a supporter of extending Woodruff to help bridge the gap rotation wise. If you take those two out of the equation you have Freddy Peralta and a pile of garbage. There are a few guys down in the minors, but odds are one or two totally flop or severely underperform their potential. 

Moral of the story, Brewers are going to be entering a massive loss of talent this offseason/next season and you gotta be pretty optimistic about a lot of guys who haven't even seen the MLB field to explain how they won't be struggling after 2024. Maybe the offense finds enough young guys to actually be a pretty good unit...but that rotation is going to need a little magic/luck to not weigh them down. 

Not sure the Mets situation is as dreamy as it looked 12 months ago, but certainly there is a lot of money/talent to be had over there. A lot better looking than the Brewers at face value. But of course...one could have said that 12 months ago too, but our season went the exact opposite. 

Jacob Misiorowski, Robert Gasser, and Carlos Rodriguez is not "pretty yikes". 

[MrTPlush]

5 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Jacob Misiorowski, Robert Gasser, and Carlos Rodriguez is not "pretty yikes". 

Considering the failure rate of prospects and/or failing to get anywhere near their potential…you are lucky if one actually turns into what you hope. It is a sharp drop off from there. Misiorowski is also the only obvious TOR guy. The other two have some interesting intrigue, but have a lot more going against them to become those kind of pitchers.

Of course my post did mention the Brewers catching some magic/luck tI…which would be something like those three pitchers all hitting their potential and coming out of the gate sprinting. But that would be somewhat like hitting the powerball.

It’s going to take a lot to go right for the Brewers to be a legit WS contender after Burnes/Woodruff skip town. The Mets, while they have a lot of question marks themselves, it is a fraction of what we have. They have a lot more money to fix issues. We don’t have the luxury.

[jerichoholicninja]

12 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

Considering the failure rate of prospects and/or failing to get anywhere near their potential…you are lucky if one actually turns into what you hope. It is a sharp drop off from there. Misiorowski is also the only obvious TOR guy. The other two have some interesting intrigue, but have a lot more going against them to become those kind of pitchers.

Of course my post did mention the Brewers catching some magic/luck tI…which would be something like those three pitchers all hitting their potential and coming out of the gate sprinting. But that would be somewhat like hitting the powerball.

It’s going to take a lot to go right for the Brewers to be a legit WS contender after Burnes/Woodruff skip town. The Mets, while they have a lot of question marks themselves, it is a fraction of what we have. They have a lot more money to fix issues. We don’t have the luxury.

Are they a "legit WS contender" right now? The Braves are head and shoulders above them and I would list both the Dodgers and Phillies as better teams.

[homer]

4 minutes ago, jerichoholicninja said:

Are they a "legit WS contender" right now? The Braves are head and shoulders above them and I would list both the Dodgers and Phillies as better teams.

Why the Phillies?

[jerichoholicninja]

9 minutes ago, homer said:

Why the Phillies?

Their offense is light years better. With Woodruff out and our young BP guys really showing wear and tear at the end of the season the pitching is probably about equal.

[MrTPlush]

34 minutes ago, jerichoholicninja said:

Are they a "legit WS contender" right now? The Braves are head and shoulders above them and I would list both the Dodgers and Phillies as better teams.

Before Woodruff was out? I think they were a decent team to have a shot at it. Great odds? No...but they had the best pitching staff in baseball. Couple guys go on a streak and that pitching staff could carry them deep. 

You still have Peralta/Burnes and they can cover a majority of games in a series...so I wouldn't say all hope is lost. 

[Brewcrew82]

2 hours ago, jerichoholicninja said:

Their offense is light years better. With Woodruff out and our young BP guys really showing wear and tear at the end of the season the pitching is probably about equal.

Our young BP guys were showing wear and tear at the end of the season? We had the second best bullpen ERA in baseball over the last month. 

Also, fwiw, we took 4/6 from Philly this season and Woody didn't pitch in any of those games while Nola and Wheeler pitched in half...

[jerichoholicninja]

Payamps gave up 18 baserunners and 7 runs over 9 innings in September.

Peguero got hurt.

Uribe has looked fine but he's thrown more innings this year than his whole professional career prior combined. He could hit a wall at any moment.

[Brewcrew82]

2 minutes ago, jerichoholicninja said:

Payamps gave up 18 baserunners and 7 runs over 9 innings in September.

Peguero got hurt.

Uribe has looked fine but he's thrown more innings this year than his whole professional career prior combined. He could hit a wall at any moment.

Okay but Payamps isn't a young guy....And as you said Uribe has looked fine. Peguero is back and was pitching really well in August/September. 

Overall, it's the best bullpen in baseball over the course of the season, and the second best over the last month. 

[nate82]

If CC is going anywhere I think it will be to Toronto so much talent on that team and they consistently under perform.  If there is a team that would be a WS contender and is similar to the Brewers it is Toronto.  I don’t believe CC will go to NY.

[brewers888]

59 minutes ago, nate82 said:

If CC is going anywhere I think it will be to Toronto so much talent on that team and they consistently under perform.  If there is a team that would be a WS contender and is similar to the Brewers it is Toronto.  I don’t believe CC will go to NY.

He's either staying with his hometown team or going to the team with the highest payroll who will make him the highest paid manager in the game.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

It sure seems like the trend is to hire youngish, analytically minded former players, guys who started their careers in the pre-Moneyball era and ended when every FO was employing multiple Ivy league data analysts and game theory gurus. This is the David Ross, Rocco Baldelli kind of hire. You could argue CC was the first one of that batch!

I still think that's the mold the Crew is going to draw from. I'd like to see an innovative hire. Someone a little off-the-map. Someone who's young but maybe not necessarily a former player. I don't know. There aren't a lot of names out there that make me say "Yeah, that's the right person."

[Axman59]

There's a reason CC has not signed a new contract with the Brewers and it's not because he wanted to contemplate retirement. He easily could have signed a new contract and then retired if he decided that's what he wanted to do.

He wanted to be free and clear of any contract with the Brewers so he could see if the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. And while there's not a lot of grass in Queens, there is a lot of green. As in money. If Steve Cohen wants CC to manage the Mets it's going to happen.