Counsell to Cubs

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

2 minutes ago, homer said:

No one said "everyone" or "every time" but sometimes you just gotta drop it so threads don't escalate or go off the rails. 

Also, it's an anonymous message board. No one will think less of you in your personal life if you stand down here.

In his defense, the "Take the L" crap is prime trolling.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

2 minutes ago, TURBO said:

I'm not sure anyone here hates the man Craig Counsell, I don't hate him personally, but as a sports fan, I will throw all my hate his way until he retires.  Sports fan hate is a lot different than personal hate imo.

I hate that he's a Cub, and I hate the Cubs, so yeah, I guess you can take that any way you want.

Craig Counsell is the enemy, and I wish him the poorest luck this world has to offer.

This is an extremely good point, TURBO. I think that a lot of fans are hurt that Counsell made the decision he did, but I've never gotten the idea that anyone personally hates the man. I hate that he's wearing a Cub uniform and not a Brewer uniform. Because it makes the Cubs better and the Brewers worse. But at the same time, it is also the Cubs admitting that the Brewers have been a better-run organization for the last 8 years. I don't know if it's necessarily possible (not to mention healthy) to both like a guy personally and also hope he fails, but that's kinda where I am at right now regarding Counsell.

[vandy54]

10 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

We hear the argument all the time that there isn't much loyalty among players, and that they basically always decide to go play for whoever is offering the most money. Why should managers be held to a different standard?

I definitely see your point, but I do think it is a little different in this case, specifically for Counsell. It seems to be acknowledged that players' careers could end at any moment, so they need to get their money while they can. Yes, this could theoretically happen for a manager as well, but in Counsell's case, I think he is guaranteed to have a longer leash given his past success (whereas sometimes players' just fall off very quickly).

Given that there isn't much loyalty from players (which we have seen all too often in Milwaukee), the fact that Milwaukee had a manager who grew up rooting for the Brewers and was "one of us" as the commercial goes, I think it just stings that much more - more than if a player who just happened to be drafted here were to leave for more money. On top of that, to hear Craig's comments that the Cubs' job was his "dream"... it just feels like he's turning his back on Milwaukee when he knows firsthand what it's like for a small market team.

I'm not really disagreeing with you - if Craig wants to raise the floor of managers' salaries and get as much as he can, that's his right (and one he has definitely earned). But I think it's also the fans' right to feel slighted by this given his history and past comments about how special it is to manage the Brewers. As some said, I don't hate the guy... but I am definitely rooting against him now given the background and his choice.

[homer]

17 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

In his defense, the "Take the L" crap is prime trolling.

True. Point taken.

[Thurston Fluff]

1 hour ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

We hear the argument all the time that there isn't much loyalty among players, and that they basically always decide to go play for whoever is offering the most money. Why should managers be held to a different standard?

They don't all do it. Some actaully do take other things into consideration, loyalty being one of them. Consideration of their legacy another. Robin Yount, Ryan Braun and Christian Yelich all took less money than they could have got on the open market to stay here. It's why I hold them in higher esteem than I do Paul Molitor, Prince Fielder and Craig Counsell.

[hawing]

Late to this particular party, but I'm mostly* over the Craig Counsell job change thing.  

I'll allow for a slim chance that his "huge crowd" comment was in response to a leading question from the Marquee folks (or whoever he was talking to).  Otherwise, that little dig wasn't necessary. There will be more than enough ill will between the fan bases, both online and at the respective parks when the two teams meet.  There is no value to adding to the ill will, unless perhaps you're in the media and need more content that will draw reactions.

Having said all that...I'm unconvinced that there isn't some kind of bad blood between Craig and some component of the Brewers.  It's one of several events to which I look forward to someday reading or hearing an oral history.  (That and the 2022 trade deadline.)

 

*mostly = as far as I know.  🤷‍♀️

[bigred]

1 hour ago, homer said:

No one said "everyone" or "every time" but sometimes you just gotta drop it so threads don't escalate or go off the rails. 

Also, it's an anonymous message board. No one will think less of you in your personal life if you stand

Like I said earlier, I already told them I agree to disagree. Have a nice day. 

[bigred]

1 hour ago, TURBO said:

I'm not sure anyone here hates the man Craig Counsell, I don't hate him personally, but as a sports fan, I will throw all my hate his way until he retires.  Sports fan hate is a lot different than personal hate imo.

I hate that he's a Cub, and I hate the Cubs, so yeah, I guess you can take that any way you want.

Craig Counsell is the enemy, and I wish him the poorest luck this world has to offer.

Like Ron Robinson mentioned, then by your logic, you should hate every Brewer player that chooses to leave Milwaukee, and take the $$, and go to a division rival. VERY few people seem to have a problem when that happens though. Why should managers be held to a different standard? 

[bigred]

1 hour ago, TURBO said:

I'm not sure anyone here hates the man Craig Counsell, I don't hate him personally, but as a sports fan, I will throw all my hate his way until he retires.  Sports fan hate is a lot different than personal hate imo.

I hate that he's a Cub, and I hate the Cubs, so yeah, I guess you can take that any way you want.

Craig Counsell is the enemy, and I wish him the poorest luck this world has to offer.

By many of their comments, it seems like some of them hate him so much, that if they saw him on the side of the road, on fire, they wouldn't stop even to pee on him to put the the fire out. 🤣

[Underachiever]

47 minutes ago, Thurston Fluff said:

 Robin Yount, Ryan Braun and Christian Yelich all took less money than they could have got on the open market to stay here.

They did? Yelich took an extension before he hit free agency, right? From whom or how could he have gotten more money at the time he signed his contract? Didn't Braun extend before he hit free agency as well? As we've been discussing in another thread about Bellinger, those two took the guaranteed money before their free agency years, so it's just not the same, in my mind.

And, if I remember, Yount got a bunch of loans from the Brewers because it was rumored he had really messed up some business deals. I just checked on Baseball Reference, and his salary for those years was listed as "6/5.55 million, including various subsidized loans." I wonder if a deal like that is even allowed anymore. Plus, the Brewers made him the highest paid player in MLB in 1990. So, I just think you are a little rose-tinted in your rear-view mirror.

[Underachiever]

2 hours ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

In his defense, the "Take the L" crap is prime trolling.

I don't know what this is referring to.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

6 minutes ago, Underachiever said:

I don't know what this is referring to.

Look back a page in the back-and-forth between RobertCawley and bigred

 

[Underachiever]

7 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Look back a page in the back-and-forth between RobertCawley and bigred

 

Oh crap, I don't need to know anything that badly. I thought there was a trolling attempt with Counsell/Cubs that it was referring to.

[Thurston Fluff]

31 minutes ago, Underachiever said:

They did? Yelich took an extension before he hit free agency, right? From whom or how could he have gotten more money at the time he signed his contract? Didn't Braun extend before he hit free agency as well? As we've been discussing in another thread about Bellinger, those two took the guaranteed money before their free agency years, so it's just not the same, in my mind.

And, if I remember, Yount got a bunch of loans from the Brewers because it was rumored he had really messed up some business deals. I just checked on Baseball Reference, and his salary for those years was listed as "6/5.55 million, including various subsidized loans." I wonder if a deal like that is even allowed anymore. Plus, the Brewers made him the highest paid player in MLB in 1990. So, I just think you are a little rose-tinted in your rear-view mirror.

Saying Yelich didn't have any offers form other teams is a red herring. He would have made a boatload more had he opted for FA instead of signing an extension. Ditto for Braun. However the contracts turned out, when they signed them they were team friendly deals. Braun did so because he wanted to be a Brewer for life. Yelich because he liked it hear and wanted to finish his career here. That hardly fits the claim that no players have any loyalty to their team.

As far as Yount goes, accepting arbitration in a walk year in which he won the MVP IIRC, certainly didn't help his finances. I'm quite sure it's easier to pay off loans when maximizing your income. That he chose to stick with the club that helped him out when he was down again shows loyalty.

I don't demand players or managers have loyalty to their team but I do hold those who have it in higher esteem.

[MVP2110]

The difference between Counsell & other players is how Counsell himself talked about being a Brewer. About how special it was to get a chance to manage the team he grew up rooting for in the city he grew up in. He seemed to lean fully into the Brewer for life idea and fans built on that. Then he not only left, he left for our biggest rival when the Brewers offered to make him the highest paid manager in baseball  Counsell is different from other players and managers

[Axman59]

I've said this before, but I'm 100% convinced there is more going on behind the scenes than we know that significantly contributed to CC and Stearns wanting out. I don't think it's nearly as simple as CC getting more money and Stearns wanting to run his favorite team from childhood.

[Dragonbait]

Didn't Jenkins also stay for less money?

[harrydalton]

Counsell is just another Brewers manager to not reach the world series.

I assume his attendance jab referred to spring training games where the cubbos have always drawn well. (More people in Arizona have escaped the hell hole of Illinois.)

/s/ Milwaukee baseball fan and Cubs hater since 1957.

[MrTPlush]

17 hours ago, Thurston Fluff said:

Saying Yelich didn't have any offers form other teams is a red herring. He would have made a boatload more had he opted for FA instead of signing an extension. Ditto for Braun. However the contracts turned out, when they signed them they were team friendly deals. Braun did so because he wanted to be a Brewer for life. Yelich because he liked it hear and wanted to finish his career here. That hardly fits the claim that no players have any loyalty to their team.

As far as Yount goes, accepting arbitration in a walk year in which he won the MVP IIRC, certainly didn't help his finances. I'm quite sure it's easier to pay off loans when maximizing your income. That he chose to stick with the club that helped him out when he was down again shows loyalty.

I don't demand players or managers have loyalty to their team but I do hold those who have it in higher esteem.

Braun and Yelich both would have made exponentially less had they gone to FA.

 They signed those extensions here because we were the only team that could offer them. It was sign with the Brewers or make tens of millions less hoping you produce 3 more years. One was probably insuring against getting caught for cheating and the other probably wasn’t feeling confident after a knee injury (or something else, who knows). Regardless, neither wanted to gamble for 3+ years more. I’ll think someone is loyal when they sign an extension like that in FA, not 3+ years prior.

 

[Underachiever]

18 hours ago, Thurston Fluff said:

Saying Yelich didn't have any offers form other teams is a red herring. He would have made a boatload more had he opted for FA instead of signing an extension.

 

I completely get it. I, too, root for lifelong Brewers. I have way more affection for Gantner than a lot of people on here, because he was truly one of us. I drove from LA to Anaheim just to see Gorman Thomas play when the Brewers brought him back in 1986. When Molitor signed with the Jays, it hurt me way more than an adult should react, ask my wife. But when I saw that the offers from Toronto and the Brewers weren't even close, I felt better.

But, the Brewers offered Yelich 7/$188 million as an extension in the offseason after he broke his knee cap. I think he did what was best for him. It's not a red herring. As it turned out, he was not good for the next two years. He would have become a FA after 2021, right? In my opinion, CY would have been on the Bellinger plan, without Bellinger's resurgent 2023 to boost his value.

[RobDeer 45]

20 hours ago, MVP2110 said:

The difference between Counsell & other players is how Counsell himself talked about being a Brewer. About how special it was to get a chance to manage the team he grew up rooting for in the city he grew up in. He seemed to lean fully into the Brewer for life idea and fans built on that. Then he not only left, he left for our biggest rival when the Brewers offered to make him the highest paid manager in baseball  Counsell is different from other players and managers

I totally get your take and your feelings.  I've had those too, because of the way they marketed him being the manager.  I did think he was going to be here forever.  I give him a break because at the time, maybe he did believe it.  But also, I think this is the marketing department more than CC.  The hype videos and all that.  They were great and they got me going, which is the point.  I'm not mad at him.  I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because I think he was great for our team while he was here.  I'll miss him.  

 

I'll let you know how I really feel when I see him managing the cubs across the other side of the field.  I might get a little angry/jealous at that point, especially if they are better than us.  

[monty57]

I understand why Counsell took a substantially higher pay package to go elsewhere, so I don't hold anything against him. I also don't think managers make that much of a difference at the MLB level, and I think that his former Notre Dame coach who is our new manager will do just as good a job as Counsell for a lot less money, so the Brewers are ahead in this deal.

That said, while it is an unrealistic dream, I hope Counsell goes 0-162 in his first season as a Cub manager, but that's just because it's the Cubs. If he went anywhere outside of the division, I wouldn't care what he does going forward.

[MVP2110]

50 minutes ago, RobDeer 45 said:

I totally get your take and your feelings.  I've had those too, because of the way they marketed him being the manager.  I did think he was going to be here forever.  I give him a break because at the time, maybe he did believe it.  But also, I think this is the marketing department more than CC.  The hype videos and all that.  They were great and they got me going, which is the point.  I'm not mad at him.  I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because I think he was great for our team while he was here.  I'll miss him.  

 

I'll let you know how I really feel when I see him managing the cubs across the other side of the field.  I might get a little angry/jealous at that point, especially if they are better than us.  

The marketing team definitely leaned into it as well but Counsell in interviews and press conferences also talked about how special it was to be a Brewer. It wasn't solely the marketing team, Counsell definitely leaned into it as well

[Jopal78]

22 hours ago, Thurston Fluff said:

Saying Yelich didn't have any offers form other teams is a red herring. He would have made a boatload more had he opted for FA instead of signing an extension. Ditto for Braun. However the contracts turned out, when they signed them they were team friendly deals. Braun did so because he wanted to be a Brewer for life. Yelich because he liked it hear and wanted to finish his career here. That hardly fits the claim that no players have any loyalty to their team.

As far as Yount goes, accepting arbitration in a walk year in which he won the MVP IIRC, certainly didn't help his finances. I'm quite sure it's easier to pay off loans when maximizing your income. That he chose to stick with the club that helped him out when he was down again shows loyalty.

I don't demand players or managers have loyalty to their team but I do hold those who have it in higher esteem.

No, Yelich was already under contract through ‘21 with a club option for ‘22. The way he played in ‘20-‘22 along with the injuries, he would not have done better as a free agent. Plus, his AAV at the time he signed his extension in ‘20 (27 mil/season) placed him amongst the highest paid position players. 
 

In the hypothetical world of internet arguing had he become a free agent after the ‘20 season he probably would’ve shot the moon. 
 

Same deal with Braun, his second extension with Milwaukee  paid him 21 million AAV beginning in ‘15 which put him in the top 20 in salary. 

Ball players are paid to perform, most have careers lasting less than 10 years, and have the right to sell themselves to the highest bidder. With those circumstances it’s is going to be extremely rare when a player does anything but take the largest pay check.

Counsell was a ball player too, and was a union rep to IIRC. Those threads run even stronger through him, so it should not be a surprise he took the largest paycheck, then throws some PR spin to not seem like someone who doesn’t care where he plies his trade as long as the dollars are right. 
 

 

[bigred]

4 hours ago, MVP2110 said:

The marketing team definitely leaned into it as well but Counsell in interviews and press conferences also talked about how special it was to be a Brewer. It wasn't solely the marketing team, Counsell definitely leaned into it as well

What he said when he first came to Milwaukee doesn't matter. Things change. He's a human being, who's allowed to change his mind and go somewhere else.