Taylor, Houser to NYM

[Bulldogboy]

18 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Right. People hating this deal are making the assumption that we won’t spend the savings, and that MA will just pocket them. Which is a pretty big assumption to make at this stage of the off-season. 

What history do we have of Mark spending a bunch of cash in an offseason since what Grandal? 

[BrewerFan]

7 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Houser is a nothing burger. He's an overpaid innings eater and he's failed at even being that the last 3 seasons. He was never pulling anything of value at his pay rate. 

Taylor is a 4th OF with a career OBP under .300. I think "high quality" is being used extremely loosely here. 

This is nothing more than a case of overvaluing our own. 

We also do pretty damn well developing guys with spotty fastballs. His command is legit and everything else is really solid. You get that fastball to tick up post TJS (and quite a few players do) and he's a viable player. Arnold did extremely well here in the gamble department. 

Houser is NOT overpaid and I hate the term "innings eater," in a derogatory manner. You NEED people to throw innings. He's thrown over 350 the last 3 years and his ERA is right about 4.00. 

In no way is that remotely overpaid when looking at starting pitching. He's a good, valuable pitcher and that much more valuable when you're looking at these 6 man rotations that we've shifted toward. 

Taylor...I think high quality is a pretty fitting description of him as a 4th OFer. He can play all 3 OF positions at a high level and he's got power. 

2.1 WAR in '22, 1.7 in '21. Last year he dealt with the arm injury, but he was carrying us toward the end of last year. I think that's pretty high quality for a 4th OFer.

 

You traded away ~3 WAR a season roughly...and you got back a pitcher with a low ceiling. I'm not going to mourn the loss of Houser, but it's a blow and he was hardly overpaid in 2023. 

[beekay414]

5 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Implying Houser was overpaid is wild when guys like Lance Lynn, Kyle Gibson, Erick Fedde are getting over $10M guaranteed.

One thing being true doesn't make other things untrue. 

6 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Tyrone is a great 4th OF. He's an awesome pinch hitter, a great defender, an average overall hitter, a good baserunner. 

You're crowing about a 4th OF when the strength of our system is the OF. We had several OFs that graded just as well or better than Tyrone. We dealt from a position of strength and gave up the least valuable piece to do so. Nobody is going to miss Tyrone Taylor.

11 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

You're just underrating those two players who combined for nearly 3 fWAR last year despite both having injury issues. 3 fWAR for a project $7M in 2024 is a bargain.

Where was Taylor getting the opportunities to produce in 2024? Because it certainly wasn't in this OF. 

[patrickgpe]

1 hour ago, BrewerFan said:

They could have just non-tendered them. 

They must like Crow's arm somewhat. 

They could have drafted crow in the rule 5 as well. From what I ready on crow there is some things  to like about him but he’s 3 years away at best 

[BrewerFan]

6 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

I'm a massive prospect guy and this just isn't really true. Cam Devanney is a guy we see all over the minors that just never cuts it in the bigs. The Mariners have a better version of him just wasting away in Jake Scheiner (power with no real standout tools elsewhere). 

Brady is a low leverage reliever with a pretty bad strand rate in the minors. He's nothing.

Scheiner and Devanney are not the same player. Devanney is a SS/3B who plays outstanding defense. Scheiner is a 3B/1B who does not. 

[beekay414]

41 minutes ago, jay87shot said:

We gave up Jace Avina for Bauers. I would argue Avina is a better prospect than Crow and that Taylor has way more value than Bauers.

Avina has a 30, maybe, if you're feeling generous, a 35 grade bat. He's going to get destroyed in the upper levels. 

[wiguy94]

2 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

One thing being true doesn't make other things untrue. 

You're crowing about a 4th OF when the strength of our system is the OF. We had several OFs that graded just as well or better than Tyrone. We dealt from a position of strength and gave up the least valuable piece to do so. Nobody is going to miss Tyrone Taylor.

Where was Taylor getting the opportunities to produce in 2024? Because it certainly wasn't in this OF. 

Why could Tyrone not have gotten innings in this OF? He literally carried the Brewers offense in the last 6 weeks of the season. I guess if we are hitting a retool/rebuild year like it appears we are then yeah it makes sense to just go with the young players because results don't matter, but if the idea is to contend then Tyrone offers a higher floor than all of our young OF.

[wiguy94]

2 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Avina has a 30, maybe, if you're feeling generous, a 35 grade bat. He's going to get destroyed in the upper levels. 

And Crow has a 40 grade FB that tops out at 91 mph right now. He gets great spin and has good breaking balls but if his FB doesn't tick up he has major reliever risk. He's also coming off TJ and won't be available for most if not all of 2024 then will be Rule 5 eligible again and needing to be protected if he's any good.

[beekay414]

7 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

You traded away ~3 WAR a season roughly...and you got back a pitcher with a low ceiling. I'm not going to mourn the loss of Houser, but it's a blow and he was hardly overpaid in 2023. 

No...we didn't. Taylor wasn't going to get opportunities in this OF in 2024 and we've got an in-house Houser replacement in Gasser. We're going to get their production for less. 

[wiguy94]

1 minute ago, beekay414 said:

No...we didn't. Taylor wasn't going to get opportunities in this OF in 2024 and we've got an in-house Houser replacement in Gasser. We're going to get their production for less. 

As we so clearly saw in 2023, just writing in rookies as immediate impact players is absolutely a recipe for success. Zero issues.

[beekay414]

2 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Why could Tyrone not have gotten innings in this OF? He literally carried the Brewers offense in the last 6 weeks of the season. I guess if we are hitting a retool/rebuild year like it appears we are then yeah it makes sense to just go with the young players because results don't matter, but if the idea is to contend then Tyrone offers a higher floor than all of our young OF.

He's not playing over Chourio, Frelick and Mitchell when they're healthy. Taylor's "floor" is a sub .300 OBP with occasional power and good defense. I don't care about his floor. He's not immune to being terrible for stretches. You're massively overrating his impact.

And no he didn't. All of Canha, Contreras, Santana and Taylor hit well the last 6 weeks. 

[Brewcrew82]

17 minutes ago, Bulldogboy said:

What history do we have of Mark spending a bunch of cash in an offseason since what Grandal? 

The Brewers have been among the top spenders this offseason in terms of guaranteed money....

And we're talking about what? $6-7 million in savings. A Santana signing, which we should expect at this point, takes care of that. 

[Brewcrew82]

3 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

As we so clearly saw in 2023, just writing in rookies as immediate impact players is absolutely a recipe for success. Zero issues.

I mean Chourio also is in a different prospect stratosphere from those guys....Not saying he'll produce like Acuna Jr. or Tatis Jr., but I don't see why we should expect Chourio or Black to struggle to the extent of Turang or Wiemer. 

Steamer expects him to outproduce Tyrone Taylor, and that's a conservative projection. 

[beekay414]

2 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

As we so clearly saw in 2023, just writing in rookies as immediate impact players is absolutely a recipe for success. Zero issues.

You're making a stink over a 5th SP and a 4th OF. Those spots are not going to make or break us in the year 2024. Why? Because the year 2024 isn't the end goal. See the big picture. 

[tmwiese55]

Just now, beekay414 said:

He's not playing over Chourio, Frelick and Mitchell when they're healthy. Taylor's "floor" is a sub .300 OBP with occasional power and good defense. I don't care about his floor. He's not immune to being terrible for stretches. You're massively overrating his impact.

And no he didn't. All of Canha, Contreras, Santana and Taylor hit well the last 6 weeks. 

He would have got plenty of ABs.  Guys are going to get hurt and/or underperform and people just don't play every day anymore so  you rotate them.  Presumably Yeli is gonna play a ton of DH.     Yea he's just a solid 4th OF, not a big thing to be worked up about but the perceived OF crunch isn't nearly as extreme as its been made out.   With the caveat that a primary DH isn't being brought in that would push Yeli to OF most days.  If a move like that is coming then yea you're probably one guy too many. 

[beekay414]

7 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

And Crow has a 40 grade FB that tops out at 91 mph right now. He gets great spin and has good breaking balls but if his FB doesn't tick up he has major reliever risk. He's also coming off TJ and won't be available for most if not all of 2024 then will be Rule 5 eligible again and needing to be protected if he's any good.

And guys see uptick in their fastballs post-TJS. And it doesn't "top out" at 91, it tops out at 93. I've seen Crow pitch, have you? Or are you just reading an online blurb?

[Brewcrew82]

17 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

Houser is NOT overpaid and I hate the term "innings eater," in a derogatory manner. You NEED people to throw innings. He's thrown over 350 the last 3 years and his ERA is right about 4.00. 

In no way is that remotely overpaid when looking at starting pitching. He's a good, valuable pitcher and that much more valuable when you're looking at these 6 man rotations that we've shifted toward. 

Taylor...I think high quality is a pretty fitting description of him as a 4th OFer. He can play all 3 OF positions at a high level and he's got power. 

2.1 WAR in '22, 1.7 in '21. Last year he dealt with the arm injury, but he was carrying us toward the end of last year. I think that's pretty high quality for a 4th OFer.

 

You traded away ~3 WAR a season roughly...and you got back a pitcher with a low ceiling. I'm not going to mourn the loss of Houser, but it's a blow and he was hardly overpaid in 2023. 

You also have to look at who we have to replace those guys, though.

Steamer projects Chourio and Gasser to outproduce Taylor and Houser for this season. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

10 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Why could Tyrone not have gotten innings in this OF? He literally carried the Brewers offense in the last 6 weeks of the season. I guess if we are hitting a retool/rebuild year like it appears we are then yeah it makes sense to just go with the young players because results don't matter, but if the idea is to contend then Tyrone offers a higher floor than all of our young OF.

Taylor also hit 0.160 in the first half of 2023.

[wiguy94]

1 minute ago, beekay414 said:

You're making a stink over a 5th SP and a 4th OF. Those spots are not going to make or break us in the year 2024. Why? Because the year 2024 isn't the end goal. See the big picture. 

Yes the Brewers a team who needs to win in the margins because we carry low payrolls giving up quality depth pieces is something that shouldn't just be brushed off like it's nothing.

The big picture is this very likely is a precursor to a sell off and 2024 retool year which will make the trade make sense. People like you acting like this trade is a good trade if the idea is to contend next year are the ones who aren't seeing the big picture.

[markedman5]

1 minute ago, tmwiese55 said:

He would have got plenty of ABs.  Guys are going to get hurt and/or underperform and people just don't play every day anymore so  you rotate them.  Presumably Yeli is gonna play a ton of DH.     Yea he's just a solid 4th OF, not a big thing to be worked up about but the perceived OF crunch isn't nearly as extreme as its been made out.   With the caveat that a primary DH isn't being brought in that would push Yeli to OF most days.  If a move like that is coming then yea you're probably one guy too many. 

I wouldn’t assume that about Yelich……i think he gets most of his at bats as a left fielder…….but we will see how the roster is filled out.

[wiguy94]

2 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

And guys see uptick in their fastballs post-TJS. And it doesn't "top out" at 91, it tops out at 93. I've seen Crow pitch, have you? Or are you just reading an online blurb?

Wow. You saw Crow pitch? I stand down. You're clearly the expert on Coleman Crow!

[wiguy94]

1 minute ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Taylor also hit 0.160 in the first half of 2023.

Because he was playing through an elbow injury and clearly wasn't healthy lol

[BrewerFan]

3 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

You're crowing about a 4th OF when the strength of our system is the OF. We had several OFs that graded just as well or better than Tyrone. We dealt from a position of strength and gave up the least valuable piece to do so. Nobody is going to miss Tyrone Taylor.

The "crowing," pun is good maybe once...after that, not so much.

I think I'll miss what Taylor provided down the stretch. He was also swinging the bat REALLY well in the series vs AZ. 2R HR and then that bullet where Adames got doubled off.

But you're right. It WAS a position of strength. I think Wieguy is arguing we didn't get enough value back and that you're really understating the value these guys brought because they weren't middle of the order hitters or top of the rotation arms. 

10 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

One thing being true doesn't make other things untrue.

It does in this context. You can't argue a player is overpaid when the market repeatedly proves you wrong. These players went into Free Agency, they got paid...and you're arguing they're overpaid? That's the market telling you exactly what their value is. 

12 minutes ago, beekay414 said:

Where was Taylor getting the opportunities to produce in 2024? Because it certainly wasn't in this OF. 

I understand we had an excess of OFers and it made sense to trade from them, but Taylor very likely had a role in the 2024 OF had they kept him. 

You have Yelich, Mitchell and Frelick who are all lefties. Perkins put up a ..192/.276/.327 for a paltry .603 OPS last year. Wiemer may well end up being our RHed bat...but it seems likely he needs time in AAA. So I see plenty of opportunities for Taylor, if he were to remain in Milwaukee to be a RHed bat off the bench. Certainly worth the 1.7M. 

I hope they end up being right about Crow...but you're likely hoping he ends up as good as Houser. So...he had value. 

 

Again, not "crowing" about this trade, but it feels more like a salary dump...and underselling the value the players we traded had to this team seems...a bit disingenuous. 

[beekay414]

1 minute ago, tmwiese55 said:

He would have got plenty of ABs.  Guys are going to get hurt and/or underperform and people just don't play every day anymore so  you rotate them.  Presumably Yeli is gonna play a ton of DH.     Yea he's just a solid 4th OF, not a big thing to be worked up about but the perceived OF crunch isn't nearly as extreme as its been made out.   With the caveat that a primary DH isn't being brought in that would push Yeli to OF most days.  If a move like that is coming then yea you're probably one guy too many. 

Joey Wiemer, Owen Miller, Blake Perkins

All capable 4th OFers in the system now. 

[tmwiese55]

1 minute ago, markedman5 said:

I wouldn’t assume that about Yelich……i think he gets most of his at bats as a left fielder…….but we will see how the roster is filled out.

Well if all the other OFs are healthy there's no way Yeli should be playing OF while one of them is DHing.   But yea more moves are to come and I had that caveat in there on someone else taking that spot.    I do hope they don't have massive faith in Bauer for that spot, for sure would've rather just kept Taylor