Hudson reinstated, Hall optioned

[Matt]

Not a huge fan of Hall being the one to go down.

[wiguy94]

Find you someone that loves you like Pat Murphy loves Elvis Peguero.

[sveumrules]

Guessing Hall is back within 20 days to not burn his final option year?

[markedman5]

Just now, sveumrules said:

Guessing Hall is back within 20 days to not burn his final option year?

Yep…….as usual Brewers playing chess when I’m thinking it’s checkers…..lol

 

[tmwiese55]

This is all roster manipulation, nothing to get freaked out about as they've proven among the best in baseball at this over the last chunk of year.   If you send down a reliver you are then down a man the next 4 days vs a loaded offense.  This gets you an extra arm for however long they need and then will figure it out when they need a starter/long man next time.

The Elvis hate continues to amaze me.  Low 3s era for the year, 5 straight scoreless (though I think there was an inherited on him recently)  No runs in 11/12 of his last games.  2.0 era the last month.   Any other team would be begging for and did trade legit prospects for people like him as a middle reliever, and a chunk of our base just rags on him.  We're so spoiled with bullpen here.

[wiguy94]

17 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

The Elvis hate continues to amaze me.  Low 3s era for the year, 5 straight scoreless (though I think there was an inherited on him recently)  No runs in 11/12 of his last games.  2.0 era the last month.   Any other team would be begging for and did trade legit prospects for people like him as a middle reliever, and a chunk of our base just rags on him.  We're so spoiled with bullpen here.

101 FIP-

100 xFIP-

4.07 xERA

4.08 SIERA

21% K-rate

12% BB-rate

-0.16 WPA (worst among RP with 10+ IP)

17 SD to 12 MD

14 of 22 inherited runners have scored for a 36% strand rate

Pretty easy to see why people might not like Elvis. His ERA is fine for a middle reliever (which isn't how Murphy uses him), but his ERA doesn't tell the whole story because his peripherals are pretty bad for a RP and him allowing a ton of inherited runners to score doesn't impact his ERA.

Edit: A lot of the ire towards Peguero is mostly the fault of Murphy who continues to use him in ways that exacerbate his weaknesses. Peguero struggles with inherited runners and has really struggled throwing strikes to RHH this season, but Murphy keeps bringing him in to face RHH with runners on base. 

[tmwiese55]

32 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

101 FIP-

100 xFIP-

4.07 xERA

4.08 SIERA

21% K-rate

12% BB-rate

-0.16 WPA (worst among RP with 10+ IP)

17 SD to 12 MD

14 of 22 inherited runners have scored for a 36% strand rate

Pretty easy to see why people might not like Elvis. His ERA is fine for a middle reliever (which isn't how Murphy uses him), but his ERA doesn't tell the whole story because his peripherals are pretty bad for a RP and him allowing a ton of inherited runners to score doesn't impact his ERA.

Edit: A lot of the ire towards Peguero is mostly the fault of Murphy who continues to use him in ways that exacerbate his weaknesses. Peguero struggles with inherited runners and has really struggled throwing strikes to RHH this season, but Murphy keeps bringing him in to face RHH with runners on base. 

Focus on only negatives if you want. There's good ones too. He's a league min middle reliever with a 3 ERA who has been good lately..  Getting the results he's gotten is the least of our problems and teams would be begging for these results.  And as pointed out in that other thread with FIP, many guys are going to be inflated due to the D but it doesn't change him with the D behind has been working.  Maybe they could use that to their advantage to 'sell high' in the offseason so to speak but right now you can't ask for much better results from a league min middle reliever.  It's not like I'm saying he should be closer and I want him in up 1 in the 8th of a playoff game, but I'm also not gonna trash the guy for doing a great job this year while being thrown into a higher role than he's ever been and probably wasn't fully ready for either. 

Also, they had something up not that many games ago on his inherited in last X amount being very good and among the best in the league.  Think that stat is skewed by the few early games.  but like I said I do recall the one recently. Oh yea it was that dribbler vs Atl to cost the game.

ETA: and to pick on how he's been being used, I'd generally agree its a notch higher than you'd want him. But why is that, because others are hurt and he's outperformed everyone else.  You want Payamps and Milner etc in there instead right now. He's outperformed all the guys who hadn't been hurt recently (hudson, megill, Koenig).  You can't just snap your fingers and plug in someone above him who doesn't exist. Once these guys are back he should notch down where he belongs if they're in the same form as they were previously. 

[wiguy94]

22 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

Focus on only negatives if you want. There's good ones too. He's a league min middle reliever with a 3 ERA who has been good lately..  Getting the results he's gotten is the least of our problems and teams would be begging for these results.  And as pointed out in that other thread with FIP, many guys are going to be inflated due to the D but it doesn't change him with the D behind has been working.  Maybe they could use that to their advantage to 'sell high' in the offseason so to speak but right now you can't ask for much better results from a league min middle reliever.  It's not like I'm saying he should be closer and I want him in up 1 in the 8th of a playoff game, but I'm also not gonna trash the guy for doing a great job this year while being thrown into a higher role than he's ever been and probably wasn't fully ready for either. 

Also, they had something up not that many games ago on his inherited in last X amount being very good and among the best in the league.  Think that stat is skewed by the few early games.  but like I said I do recall the one recently. Oh yea it was that dribbler vs Atl to cost the game.

ETA: and to pick on how he's been being used, I'd generally agree its a notch higher than you'd want him. But why is that, because others are hurt and he's outperformed everyone else.  You want Payamps and Milner etc in there instead right now. He's outperformed all the guys who hadn't been hurt recently (hudson, megill, Koenig).  You can't just snap your fingers and plug in someone above him who doesn't exist. Once these guys are back he should notch down where he belongs if they're in the same form as they were previously. 

That's the thing he has not done a great job. A leverage RP who has a negative WPA is in fact doing their job poorly. It's also not a higher role than he has ever been in. He has virtually the same leverage index as last year. He's been used pretty much the same. Difference being he was good at his job last year and has not been good at his job this year.

[Jim French Stepstool]

The consternation about Hall being optioned will ramp up if/when Montas struggles. Even if he doesn't, Hall looks like at the very least a better, LH-version of the role Junis filled. But as @tmwiese55 pointed out, this isn't a week to get caught short in the pen.

[Brian]

Aug 11, 2023

Brewers place OF Blake Perkins (oblique) on 10-day IL

[wiguy94]

Just now, Brian said:

Aug 11, 2023

Brewers place OF Blake Perkins (oblique) on 10-day IL

What does Blake Perkins being placed on the IL a year ago have to do with DL Hall/Bryan Hudson?

[LouisEly]

1 hour ago, sveumrules said:

Guessing Hall is back within 20 days to not burn his final option year?

Yep, because they can bring him up for the doubleheader on 8/30.

[tmwiese55]

17 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

That's the thing he has not done a great job. A leverage RP who has a negative WPA is in fact doing their job poorly. It's also not a higher role than he has ever been in. He has virtually the same leverage index as last year. He's been used pretty much the same. Difference being he was good at his job last year and has not been good at his job this year.

Sorry this is a terrible post.   First, being elevated to the #2/#3 man like he has been lately is above what he's been and should be. Heck, it was part of your bashing of him in that he's being used wrong.

Second, over the last month-ish we've had what 4 other higher end BP guys get hurt and gotten 1 back so -3. Also had MIlner/Payamps regress this year.  And in that month-ish span when most needed as our loaded pen all of a sudden got thin, the guy steps up and puts up 12/13 scoreless outings and a 2.0 ERA and we're hearing trashing him saying he has not been good.     Once again, the results have been good and most teams would beg for a guy with these results. Yet we say he's not been good and should be sent down.   I know our BP has spoiled us the last few years but lets get some perspective.

[wiguy94]

1 hour ago, tmwiese55 said:

Sorry this is a terrible post.   First, being elevated to the #2/#3 man like he has been lately is above what he's been and should be. Heck, it was part of your bashing of him in that he's being used wrong.

Second, over the last month-ish we've had what 4 other higher end BP guys get hurt and gotten 1 back so -3. Also had MIlner/Payamps regress this year.  And in that month-ish span when most needed as our loaded pen all of a sudden got thin, the guy steps up and puts up 12/13 scoreless outings and a 2.0 ERA and we're hearing trashing him saying he has not been good.     Once again, the results have been good and most teams would beg for a guy with these results. Yet we say he's not been good and should be sent down.   I know our BP has spoiled us the last few years but lets get some perspective.

Peguero was the 7th inning leverage guy basically half the season in 2023. Saying that's above what he should be is just not true. Negative WPA shows he hasn't been good. Terrible post from you and 1000% wrong.

[SF70]

No idea how anyone can be ok with Peguero entering a game with any runner on base in any high leverage situation.

He’s been terrible in HL all year. 

This bullpen has the potential to be so much better without Peguero in it. He’s an easy option along with Hudson, with Yoho & Misiorowski replacing them.

This teams best chance to win moving forward is with an overwhelmingly dominant bullpen and Megill-Yoho-Misiorowski should give them that.

Hudson is not close to the same pitcher today as he was earlier when he was healthy and rested. Stuff just not as good.

[Brian]

19 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

What does Blake Perkins being placed on the IL a year ago have to do with DL Hall/Bryan Hudson?

That was on the front page yesterday on Microsoft Start. That is all that AI generated crap.

[tmwiese55]

27 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Peguero was the 7th inning leverage guy basically half the season in 2023. Saying that's above what he should be is just not true. Negative WPA shows he hasn't been good. Terrible post from you and 1000% wrong.

So being in the 8th this year and the #2 man for this stretch is not going up a notch?   You realize you've essentially now started arguing against your own arguments?   You started saying he's been being missused and used at higher spots than he should, now you're saying he's not.   You started off saying how much he sucks and is being missused to be in those spots, now you're saying being high leverage 8th inning guy is not above how good he is.  I know I'd prefer Megill is his old self, Hudson gets good again and Peguro can be moved down as I trust him less than when those guys were grooving earlier. 

But sure I am wrong a guy that has produced these results has been fine and has been the least of our problems.  I don't know what else you expect, 4 guys get hurt and this guy who supposedly sucks and should demoted puts up 12/13 scoreless innings and 2 era in that rough area and a 3 for year. And we trash him. I mean, good luck with those standards.   

And to the other, yes Hudson hasn't looked the dominant force he was, Koenig too, Payamps had been getting going again but can't recall specifically the last week or two. Now we have to see how Megill looks when back too.  But you know who has kept on putting up 0s way more often than not, this guy who sucks and should be demoted and I guess I don't know who they should have been running out there while all these guys were hurt that would've given up 0 runs instead of the 1-2 runs this bum gave up. Guy has stayed healthy and been a solid contributor all year and we're trashing him instead of appreciating how much he's helped.   These types of standards are just way out of line on what to expect, guys cannot be perfect.

[wiguy94]

7 minutes ago, tmwiese55 said:

So being in the 8th this year and the #2 man for this stretch is not going up a notch?   You realize you've essentially now started arguing against your own arguments?   You started saying he's been being missused and used at higher spots than he should, now you're saying he's not.   You started off saying how much he sucks and is being missused to be in those spots, now you're saying being high leverage 8th inning guy is not above how good he is.  I know I'd prefer Megill is his old self, Hudson gets good again and Peguro can be moved down as I trust him less than when those guys were grooving earlier. 

But sure I am wrong a guy that has produced these results has been fine and has been the least of our problems.  I don't know what else you expect, 4 guys get hurt and this guy who supposedly sucks and should demoted puts up 12/13 scoreless innings and 2 era in that rough area and a 3 for year. And we trash him. I mean, good luck with those standards.   

And to the other, yes Hudson hasn't looked the dominant force he was, Koenig too, Payamps had been getting going again but can't recall specifically the last week or two. Now we have to see how Megill looks when back too.  But you know who has kept on putting up 0s way more often than not, this guy who sucks and should be demoted and I guess I don't know who they should have been running out there while all these guys were hurt that would've given up 0 runs instead of the 1-2 runs this bum gave up. Guy has stayed healthy and been a solid contributor all year and we're trashing him instead of appreciating how much he's helped.   These types of standards are just way out of line on what to expect, guys cannot be perfect.

I'm not arguing against myself. I'm saying he's been misused because he's been bad not because he's being asked to pitch a higher leverage role than last year (what you have argued). That's pretty clear if you'd have been paying attention.

You keep citing that he's been good because he's putting up zeros ignoring that he keeps allowing inherited runners to score. Since the ASB he has -0.44 WPA which is by far the worst in the pen with the next lowest being -0.04. In that time has a 111 FIP- and 4.01 xERA so yeah not good. He needs to go to AAA.

[tmwiese55]

38 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

I'm not arguing against myself. I'm saying he's been misused because he's been bad not because he's being asked to pitch a higher leverage role than last year (what you have argued). That's pretty clear if you'd have been paying attention.

You keep citing that he's been good because he's putting up zeros ignoring that he keeps allowing inherited runners to score. Since the ASB he has -0.44 WPA which is by far the worst in the pen with the next lowest being -0.04. In that time has a 111 FIP- and 4.01 xERA so yeah not good. He needs to go to AAA.

But then later said being in these spots is not above him, which is arguing against yourself.   I've said being the 8th inning type go to guy is above him and is more than in the past, I hope he's a notch or two below that.

I also hope we can somehow field a bullpen that gives up 0 runs.  Sadly I don't think it will ever happen