Game 16: Ravens @ Packers - Saturday, Dec. 27th @ 7:00 PM

[OldSchoolSnapper]

3 hours ago, homer said:

Gary hasn't had a sack since October and was behind Van Ness and Enagbare in snaps. He's a goner 

Maybe. There's no way to make that sack number look good, but he's 19/121 EDs in pressures this year with 51, respectable. He has also stayed near the top in run stop win rate after being #1 in it last year. Combo guys that play the run do make a lot of money. I can definitely see him getting cut. I'm less sure it's a slam dunk. I'm also not sure the Packers ever trade for Parsons if Gary was playing at the $28 million level he's going to be at next season.

He's a solid, albeit overpaid player. His snap count has also kind of always been oddly low, but yes it was lower than usual.  He is kinda this year's Jaire. Neither outcome will be surprising. 

[Jopal78]

7 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Yes and the 60 minute game was headed for disaster for Denver until 3 of the Packers top 10 players were hurt in 5 minutes. 

Sold their future? What future did they sell? Another Jordan Morgan? Van Ness? A WR they won't play and will be lucky to finish with 400 yards? I think any GM on the planet makes that trade for Parsons. 

You're upset and spleen venting. 

I get that -  but I don't get your thesis. The Packers literally were a contender 2 weeks ago. They were literally sitting at the 2 seed, with a 9 point lead and the ball in the second half against the AFC 2 seed. I don't know how else you define contender. 

You’re fooling yourself… the Packers are a playoff team because of the parity in the NFL.

Go back and watch the Denver game, it was  a 2 point Packer lead when Parsons left (23-21). If you call a 2 point leading “beating the brakes off someone” well then good on you. 
 

This year‘s team is 2-4 against likely playoff teams. Last season 1-5.  How do you call a team a contender when they can’t even beat the best teams in the regular season.

Finally, if you’re still in denial take a look at their roster. They don’t have a WR who is any good. They don’t have a CB who is any good. Zach Tom is good at RT but not great, (see Sewell in Detroit). The rest of the OL is ordinary. Parsons is tremendous, and Wyatt was good, the rest of the DL is ordinary. Walker is a good not great LB, Cooper is fast but small, McDuffie is small and slow. Jacobs is washed up at RB and their depth is undrafted guys.

Yeah the Parsons injury was huge, because nobody has stepped up in  his absence the pass rush has all but disappeared, but Parsons isn’t why they lost in Denver (offense collapsed in 2nd half) Chicago (blown assignments by DBs and botched onside kick) or Baltimore (gashed when Baltimore ran their big players at the Packers undersized speed defenders)

And Parsons hurts the future because it narrows how they get more talent on the roster for next year. They’re down a pick (even if they’d likely blow it anyways) and with Love and Parsons with cap number amongst the highest in the game they’re not flush with cap space either and likely have to cut players just to extend the good players they do have and will be relying on UFDAs and perhaps late round compensatory picks to fill their roster. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

1 hour ago, Jopal78 said:

You’re fooling yourself… the Packers are a playoff team because of the parity in the NFL.

Go back and watch the Denver game, it was  a 2 point Packer lead when Parsons left (23-21). If you call a 2 point leading “beating the brakes off someone” well then good on you. 
 

This year‘s team is 2-4 against likely playoff teams. Last season 1-5.  How do you call a team a contender when they can’t even beat the best teams in the regular season.

Finally, if you’re still in denial take a look at their roster. They don’t have a WR who is any good. They don’t have a CB who is any good. Zach Tom is good at RT but not great, (see Sewell in Detroit). The rest of the OL is ordinary. Parsons is tremendous, and Wyatt was good, the rest of the DL is ordinary. Walker is a good not great LB, Cooper is fast but small, McDuffie is small and slow. Jacobs is washed up at RB and their depth is undrafted guys.

Yeah the Parsons injury was huge, because nobody has stepped up in  his absence the pass rush has all but disappeared, but Parsons isn’t why they lost in Denver (offense collapsed in 2nd half) Chicago (blown assignments by DBs and botched onside kick) or Baltimore (gashed when Baltimore ran their big players at the Packers undersized speed defenders)

And Parsons hurts the future because it narrows how they get more talent on the roster for next year. They’re down a pick (even if they’d likely blow it anyways) and with Love and Parsons with cap number amongst the highest in the game they’re not flush with cap space either and likely have to cut players just to extend the good players they do have and will be relying on UFDAs and perhaps late round compensatory picks to fill their roster. 

I did watch the Denver game. It was a 9-pt lead with possession when Watson left, relax your Parsons obsession. They had just rattled off a 40-yard run for their last score.  Perhaps if they just keep running, none of these catastrophic injuries ever take place, who knows.

They were going to beat Denver and were scorching them offensively until Watson and Tom were injured. Those were bigger injuries than Parsons in that specific game based on how the offense and defense were playing. I believe they still beat them without Parsons if those two never get hurt, but whatever. Don't agree at all that they don't have a WR who is any good, they have Watson, who is a top 10 WR in the league if he stops getting hurt, which he seems to have gotten under control since rehabbing soft tissue problems. His ACL was a freak thing. He is probably going to finish with around 700 yards despite starting the season in late October. Just nonsense to say the guy isn't any good. Anyone with eyes can see he's good. 

I can say they're a contender because they were by definition, "contending" with every one of those teams. Say what you want about "playoff teams" but the HUGE difference between last year and this year is that the Packers actually competed against playoff teams, not like last year when they'd be down by 20 at half against anybody decent. In that "2-4" straw man is the second loss against the Bears, a 10-7 loss to the Eagles and a loss in Denver they were dominating until their season unraveled. It's very easily 4-2 or 5-1. There was no explaining away their losses last year, they got embarrassed. 

The biggest problem with your arguments is that by your standards, nobody is really any good. Every team in the league this year has some stretch that makes them look bad. 

All these teams are bad somewhere. No argument that the Packers secondary is bad, it is. But it is so obviously clear as day that the season went off the rails after the injuries in Denver, and the ones prior to that just magnified. 

A guy who was out of the league is our leading TE now. Our two best DL are on IR. Jacobs is pretending he isn't hurt. Our best OL is hurt. We had 43 active players at a point last night. Nobody can overcome that. 

I get being upset because this season has absolutely come unglued and sucks. I just think "they suck! and they're doodoo heads 😭" routine is ridiculous. Half of what you say has merit, the other half just reads like a tantrum.  

 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Biggest things that went wrong this year outside of injuries:

They've been absolutely terrible at stealing the ball - horrendous at it. The pass rush they had prior to the Parsons injury should have helped, but we dropped it when we could have had it, and teams eventually started quick-hitting us to death. That was our kryptonite. If you could beat the coverage in 2 seconds, which you can, you could score on us.

The Bears sit +21 in differential. The Packers are at 0. And that is with the Packers being 5th best in giveaways. One of the silver linings of this year is that Love got much better taking care of the ball. He had one awful turnover in Cleveland, but for the most part he was wise with his prayer balls that happened to get picked off.

When teams did get into the red zone, they scored TDs among the best rates in the NFL.

Consistency on offense, which typically is held together by strong OL play that they did not have.

In 4 of 6 losses, they Packers averaged 11.5 points. What makes those losses even worse, the margin of defeat was 3.75. You can have one game like that, maybe two, but certainly not 4 when you're offensive guru coach paying a QB what we are. That's awful. You're paying that kind of money specifically to win those games.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

10 hours ago, HarveysWBs said:

Regardless of the injury circumstances, but five straight losses in a “all-in” season, with the last one coming in Chicago, should probably get a coach canned. I’m more inclined to defend him than most here, it seems, but I’m not sure I can defend that.

There were grounds to be tired of him prior to the Denver game. Too many situational losses that he had a significant hand in with a coaching decision. It would also be Year 8. Three straight 7 seeds does not necessitate Year 8. He's had his chance, with teams better than this one, and hasn't come through. This year's team also seems to have mailed it in after the Bears debacle.

Purely speculative, but I believe Policy has a vision and it doesn't involve a guy hired 6 years before he took over. In no way does this guarantee better results, but I do think it's time.

[OldHeidelberg]

11 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Malik is fine and everything and maybe he's good, he was at one point evaluated as a top talent. But it's amusing watching people call for him to start here as if he's actually done much of anything. He has never really had to play against anyone good. Never been extensively scouted against. And I don't mean to knock him at all, but some of these performances people have worshipped him over, he's gone like 5/6 with 70 yards. He's done everything and more the Packers could have asked from him, but in no way do I believe he's better than Jordan Love. 

Willis was nothing short of spectacular last night. I was having so much fun watching him play that the defensive collapse wasn't even bothering me. Love is our guy and Willis will move on but I am starting to wonder just how much he is going to get in FA. Salary cap aside if you are the Vikings do you not throw 2/50 at him and let JJ try to beat him out? He is everything people hoped Fields would be and Fields got 2/40 last offseason.  

[homer]

11 minutes ago, OldHeidelberg said:

Willis was nothing short of spectacular last night. I was having so much fun watching him play that the defensive collapse wasn't even bothering me. Love is our guy and Willis will move on but I am starting to wonder just how much he is going to get in FA. Salary cap aside if you are the Vikings do you not throw 2/50 at him and let JJ try to beat him out? He is everything people hoped Fields would be and Fields got 2/40 last offseason.  

There was an article on JSOnline the other day about his odds of getting a big contract, and the possibility one of the writers made that makes sense to me is that he signs with a team that is going to draft a QB in round 1.  Jets, Browns, Raiders. Maybe Miami?

[Fear The Chorizo]

The Steelers would make sense for Willis, too assuming Rodgers retires after they win the super bowl (statement not entirely in blue)

[GAME05]

He makes sense for a lot of teams. Shallow QB class out there, too. Plus Daniel Jones only increased the market for second-chance QBs. Add in the newer strategy of "Let's first build the team, then get a QB" and I suspect Willis can find a team where he gets 2-3 seasons to start as a bridge or I guess that tiny chance he turns out to be Sam Darnold. Willis' deep ball ability makes sense for the Bengals, too, if they trade Burrow.

But he'll be competing with Kyler Murray, who I presume will get cut and not traded (with a bigger cap hit than even Russel Wilson). And I think Carolina has to decide on Bryce Young's 5th year option this offseason, too. 

[OldHeidelberg]

24 minutes ago, homer said:

There was an article on JSOnline the other day about his odds of getting a big contract, and the possibility one of the writers made that makes sense to me is that he signs with a team that is going to draft a QB in round 1.  Jets, Browns, Raiders. Maybe Miami?

I suspect he may have priced himself out of being a placeholder for one of the guys picked at the top of the draft. Miami, Pittsburgh, Minnesota all would make sense even if they draft someone or have a guy like McCarthy already. Hopefully his market is robust enough to land us a 3rd round comp pick. 

[Jopal78]

3 hours ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

I did watch the Denver game. It was a 9-pt lead with possession when Watson left, relax your Parsons obsession. They had just rattled off a 40-yard run for their last score.  Perhaps if they just keep running, none of these catastrophic injuries ever take place, who knows.

They were going to beat Denver and were scorching them offensively until Watson and Tom were injured. Those were bigger injuries than Parsons in that specific game based on how the offense and defense were playing. I believe they still beat them without Parsons if those two never get hurt, but whatever. Don't agree at all that they don't have a WR who is any good, they have Watson, who is a top 10 WR in the league if he stops getting hurt, which he seems to have gotten under control since rehabbing soft tissue problems. His ACL was a freak thing. He is probably going to finish with around 700 yards despite starting the season in late October. Just nonsense to say the guy isn't any good. Anyone with eyes can see he's good. 

I can say they're a contender because they were by definition, "contending" with every one of those teams. Say what you want about "playoff teams" but the HUGE difference between last year and this year is that the Packers actually competed against playoff teams, not like last year when they'd be down by 20 at half against anybody decent. In that "2-4" straw man is the second loss against the Bears, a 10-7 loss to the Eagles and a loss in Denver they were dominating until their season unraveled. It's very easily 4-2 or 5-1. There was no explaining away their losses last year, they got embarrassed. 

The biggest problem with your arguments is that by your standards, nobody is really any good. Every team in the league this year has some stretch that makes them look bad. 

All these teams are bad somewhere. No argument that the Packers secondary is bad, it is. But it is so obviously clear as day that the season went off the rails after the injuries in Denver, and the ones prior to that just magnified. 

A guy who was out of the league is our leading TE now. Our two best DL are on IR. Jacobs is pretending he isn't hurt. Our best OL is hurt. We had 43 active players at a point last night. Nobody can overcome that. 

I get being upset because this season has absolutely come unglued and sucks. I just think "they suck! and they're doodoo heads 😭" routine is ridiculous. Half of what you say has merit, the other half just reads like a tantrum.  

 

No you’re factually incorrect; possession ended on the play Watson left. It was intercepted. Than their offense completely collapsed with another pick and two turnovers on downs mustering only a field goal, while their defense gave up what 17 points? 
 

Calling Watson a Top 10 WR indicates you have no credibility. He’s not even Top 5 in the NFC North let alone Top 10 in the NFL. If you’d honestly take Watson over Jefferson, St. Brown, Addison, DJ Moore, and Jameson Williams you’re lying to yourself or smoking too much. Hell,  It’s not even a hard decision with those guys, they’ve been mostly healthy whereas Watson has missed most nearly as many games as he’s played after coming out incredibly raw. 
 

With no real credibility it’s not worth discussing further. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

38 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

No you’re factually incorrect; possession ended on the play Watson left. It was intercepted. Than their offense completely collapsed with another pick and two turnovers on downs mustering only a field goal, while their defense gave up what 17 points? 
 

Calling Watson a Top 10 WR indicates you have no credibility. He’s not even Top 5 in the NFC North let alone Top 10 in the NFL. If you’d honestly take Watson over Jefferson, St. Brown, Addison, DJ Moore, and Jameson Williams you’re lying to yourself or smoking too much. Hell,  It’s not even a hard decision with those guys, they’ve been mostly healthy whereas Watson has missed most nearly as many games as he’s played after coming out incredibly raw. 
 

With no real credibility it’s not worth discussing further. 

Lmao. He left on the play the interception happened. Just stop, guy. Surely you are happy enough with the boatload of money you made betting on the Packers to finish exactly where they did. Do it again next year and maybe you'll 10x!

You're an angry season seat holder. I get it. It's odd though, I can't find a single post of yours predicting this outcome before the season.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/christian-watson/66581

I hate PFF, but he's currently #12. His biggest problem is health and lack of volume caused by health.

I don't really think there's significant talent separation between Watson and any of those guys, as it stand today. The pedigree is the difference, but Watson has been incapable of staying healthy. Most of those guys had pretty poor seasons by their standards. Watson has to play 14 games or so and do it for a full year, but I don't think swapping him out with St. Brown next year would really solve any problems for the Packers.

DJ Moore? Addison? I absolutely want Watson instead. Bears fans wanted Moore cut 2 weeks ago and Addison is basically a Doubs swap out. I would take the 6'5 guy that runs like he's 5'11 every day of the week.

[Jopal78]

31 minutes ago, OldSchoolSnapper said:

Lmao. He left on the play the interception happened. Just stop, guy. Surely you are happy enough with the boatload of money you made betting on the Packers to finish exactly where they did. Do it again next year and maybe you'll 10x!

You're an angry season seat holder. I get it. It's odd though, I can't find a single post of yours predicting this outcome before the season.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/christian-watson/66581

I hate PFF, but he's currently #12. His biggest problem is health and lack of volume caused by health.

I don't really think there's significant talent separation between Watson and any of those guys, as it stand today. The pedigree is the difference, but Watson has been incapable of staying healthy. Most of those guys had pretty poor seasons by their standards. Watson has to play 14 games or so and do it for a full year, but I don't think swapping him out with St. Brown next year would really solve any problems for the Packers.

DJ Moore? Addison? I absolutely want Watson instead. Bears fans wanted Moore cut 2 weeks ago and Addison is basically a Doubs swap out. I would take the 6'5 guy that runs like he's 5'11 every day of the week.

Just stop, you keep arguing that I’m some disgruntled fan then cite a WR who hasn’t had 700 yards in his career as one of the best receivers in the league; it is simply a joke or someone unwilling to see reality. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

5 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Just stop, you keep arguing that I’m some disgruntled fan then cite a WR who hasn’t had 700 yards in his career as one of the best receivers in the league; it is simply a joke or someone unwilling to see reality. 

You love taking things completely out of context and then making totally disingenuous arguments around them. 

Since you're incapable of posting without ad hominem, I'll play your game. I'm not acting like you are a disgruntled fan, you are one. You're a toddler throwing a tantrum because the season didn't pan out the way you hoped. "They suck. Everyone sucks. Where's my nuk?!"

You're like the first person in the history of this forum that has tried to pretend I'm some kind of Positive Pete. I posted a link to a third party that ranks him 12th in efficiency as his position. Your retort was "just stop." Lol.

Again, when healthy, which he has been unable to be pretty much ever, Watson is an elite WR. The fact that he puts up the numbers he does despite basically never playing should tell you that. He skipped half a season and has a chance to lead the team in yards. More importantly though, when he doesn't play their offense becomes VASTLY worse. But you're too busy welling up in crybaby tears constantly to see anything.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

14 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

Good thing they’ll be on the road for the playoffs, don’t have to send in my ticket money now or watch them get blown out 

Gee, where would anybody get the wild idea you're disgruntled?

[Fear The Chorizo]

4 minutes ago, Jopal78 said:

Just stop, you keep arguing that I’m some disgruntled fan then cite a WR who hasn’t had 700 yards in his career as one of the best receivers in the league; it is simply a joke or someone unwilling to see reality. 

Health / availability is the lone thing keeping Watson from easily being a top flight receiver in the NFL based on his wr development finally catching up with his physical gifts.  That said, he will never realize and be recognized for that potential if he cant stay on the field for a full season.

 

This Packer offense has a knack for never giving a wideout the volume of targets to put up the numbers that guys like Chase or JSN will post, too (lone exception bekng Rodgers/Adams' connection when the rest of the options weren't getting open).  That doesnt mean every team in the NFL wouldn't want Watson as a starting WR for 2026 with the contract # he'll have.

[LouisEly]

3 hours ago, OldHeidelberg said:

Willis was nothing short of spectacular last night. I was having so much fun watching him play that the defensive collapse wasn't even bothering me. Love is our guy and Willis will move on but I am starting to wonder just how much he is going to get in FA. Salary cap aside if you are the Vikings do you not throw 2/50 at him and let JJ try to beat him out? He is everything people hoped Fields would be and Fields got 2/40 last offseason.  

Considering that the last year of NFL free agent contracts are usually a throwaway year and how many QBs are getting $50M, I think the market for Willis is at a minimum 3/$60M with a majority of that guaranteed, if not more.

[homer]

3 hours ago, OldHeidelberg said:

I suspect he may have priced himself out of being a placeholder for one of the guys picked at the top of the draft. Miami, Pittsburgh, Minnesota all would make sense even if they draft someone or have a guy like McCarthy already. Hopefully his market is robust enough to land us a 3rd round comp pick. 

LOL

 

 

[CheezWizHed]

Wills > Murray

[homer]

15 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

Willis > Murray

I think you're right.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

1 hour ago, homer said:

LOL

 

 

Yeah I hope I'm wrong because Willis is a great story, but this is kinda exactly how I see his future playing out. QB play is bad, he is going to cash out, but this has happened so many times in history where a guy is good as a back up and then finds that success impossible to replicate elsewhere. He's excelled at every test in GB, but like I said last night, he has not played a single good defense in any of these games, and in several of the games that laughably had people calling for Love to benched, he threw like 8 passes for 60 yards. I am rooting for the guy, though.

[CheezWizHed]

We knew that the worst part of trading Parsons was depth at DT:

Wooden	4th Round
Brooks	6th Round
Brinson	6th Round
Riley	7th Round
Bohanna	6th Round
Stackhouse	UDFA

Wooden has been pleasantly good. The rest... not so much. Brinson has some future potential, but looks every bit of a rookie 6th-rounder right now. Brooks is ok on pass rush, but hasn't really improved since a rookie. 

 

[OldHeidelberg]

2 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Considering that the last year of NFL free agent contracts are usually a throwaway year and how many QBs are getting $50M, I think the market for Willis is at a minimum 3/$60M with a majority of that guaranteed, if not more.

He is a pretty unusual QB to be hitting the FA market. Top 100 pick who was a raw talent but never showed much in limited play for Titans. Traded to GB where he had some success last year as a backup and is a franchise known for developing QB's. Now has some late season prime time games right before FA to put him front and center yet has never been a regular starter. His talent really jumps out at you, it's not really like the Matt Flynn situation at all. He is only 26, if you are QB needy team and are not in position to get the first couple of QB's in draft he may be best option and doesn't cost picks. The bidding may go high. 

[homer]

Hid some posts. I suggest the two of you let it go. 

[JosephC]

On 12/27/2025 at 11:27 PM, homer said:

Gary hasn't had a sack since October and was behind Van Ness and Enagbare in snaps. He's a goner 

Gary is the prime example of a guy who plays when he wants to play.  He's as good as he wants to be.  He's had that reputation ever since his sophomore year at Michigan.  He has two years left on his deal, but will know that he would be an easy, no-brainer cut after 2026 with a cap number of 31 million (in 2027) and a savings of 22.5 million if he is released.  In other words, I would expect a very motivated and a very good Gary in 2026 as he will be playing for his next contract.  Unfortunately, if you give him another big contract after 2026, it's almost a guarantee that 2026 will be the last great year he will have.

BTW, if the Packers do a full restructure on him after this season, which I would expect, the cap number in 2027 balloons to 40 million, but the Packers would still get the same 22.5 million in savings if he is released after 2026. 

Largely based on Parsons injury, I think probably the best course of action is to do the restructure on Gary for 2026, and then release/trade him after the year is done and take the 18 million dollar cap hit in 2027.  Walking away from him leaves too much up in the air at the position with Parsons likely to miss a good chunk of the season.  And like I said earlier, based on the contract situation, I think chances are pretty high that we see the best out of Gary in 2026.

But I wouldn't be all that shocked if they walked away from him after this season either.  They are defintely not in dire straits cap-wise, but there will still be some decisions to be made after Jenkins is released.  I think they should keep him and just eat the 18 million in cap space in 2027, but if they part ways with him after this year, they will likely be able to spread out the hit, resulting in about 8.5 million of dead cap space in 2026 and 2027.