Electric Vehicles

[Fear The Chorizo]

I mean, I guess it's not to the extent of oil companies yet simply because the scales we are talking about even now aren't remotely comparable with all the lithium/cobalt/etc mining to date helping to get 1.5% of cars on the road today being powered by EV batteries.  And, O&G companies make much more than gasoline and fuel from the oil the extract - they aren't going away anytime soon no matter how many or few ICE passenger cars are on the road over time.

China is jumping head first into EV car production not because of any green/renewable efforts - it's because they also happen to control most of the world's known supply of mineable battery minerals and do most of the high heat manufacturing for batteries (and frankly most of the world's other material needs that require high heat processes) powered by an electrical grid driven by coal.  China got a big head start because they already had the supply chain and mining reserve rights gobbled up for phone/computer/electronics manufacturing.  China also happens to have a pretty limited reach in controllable proven oil reserves and a population that is adding more new drivers/cars on the road than anywhere on a daily basis besides India.  Make no mistake, if China was sitting on a ton of readily extractable oil EV's wouldn't be a thing anywhere else on the planet, either.

 

[igor67]

Finally making the jump to getting an EV. Hit a deer after moving back to Wisconsin and using that to give the down payment. While I can appreciate it's not universal the cost savings for me are huge. My wife has to drive 90 miles round trip for work a day and the local electric co-op has charged between 10-11 cents/ KWH for the last 5 years. Even if Chevy didn't help with the home charger it would get paid for in a couple of months. My only regret at the moment is that the timing was slightly off from being able to get an Equinox.

[owbc]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:45 AM, igor67 said:

Finally making the jump to getting an EV. Hit a deer after moving back to Wisconsin and using that to give the down payment. While I can appreciate it's not universal the cost savings for me are huge. My wife has to drive 90 miles round trip for work a day and the local electric co-op has charged between 10-11 cents/ KWH for the last 5 years. Even if Chevy didn't help with the home charger it would get paid for in a couple of months. My only regret at the moment is that the timing was slightly off from being able to get an Equinox.

We got a Volvo XC40-Recharge in September. Got a pretty good deal on a lease. No complaints.

Now I need to figure out solar panels, but that may wait to see if we move first. The estimates I got suggested it would pay for itself in 7 years. 

 

[wallus]

I turned in my EV lease recently. I want another EV but the ones I want are kinda overpriced so I am waiting for incentives to return which I think will be end of year/start of next year.

If they don't, unfortunately I will consider another ICE vehicle.

[LouisEly]

On 11/6/2023 at 10:23 PM, owbc said:

We got a Volvo XC40-Recharge in September. Got a pretty good deal on a lease. No complaints.

Now I need to figure out solar panels, but that may wait to see if we move first. The estimates I got suggested it would pay for itself in 7 years. 

 

Will the weather (cloudy, rain, lack of sun) in the Seattle area affect their effectiveness and how long it will take to pay for themselves?

[owbc]

41 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

Will the weather (cloudy, rain, lack of sun) in the Seattle area affect their effectiveness and how long it will take to pay for themselves?

From what I've seen you get about 25% as much generation in the winter as the summer -- although even that's pretty good given how dark it can get here. The panels are more efficient at colder temperatures which helps. There are 3-4 other houses on my block with solar panels, it's pretty common around here. 

Electricity is cheaper in the winter due to our abundant hydropower and lower usage, so you don't need to generate as much in the winter anyway. And in the summer when you're running A/C and electricity is more expensive, you're offsetting that with solar and likely generating excess that you sell back to the grid to offset future bills. And we have really sunny summers here.

Ultimately I'm still balking at the up front price which is close to $20K even with no sales tax and the federal credits. If it was below $15K then I'd probably jump on it tomorrow. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

15 hours ago, owbc said:

From what I've seen you get about 25% as much generation in the winter as the summer -- although even that's pretty good given how dark it can get here. The panels are more efficient at colder temperatures which helps. There are 3-4 other houses on my block with solar panels, it's pretty common around here. 

Electricity is cheaper in the winter due to our abundant hydropower and lower usage, so you don't need to generate as much in the winter anyway. And in the summer when you're running A/C and electricity is more expensive, you're offsetting that with solar and likely generating excess that you sell back to the grid to offset future bills. And we have really sunny summers here.

Ultimately I'm still balking at the up front price which is close to $20K even with no sales tax and the federal credits. If it was below $15K then I'd probably jump on it tomorrow. 

Is that estimate based on Seattle-area winters?  I'd say that's believable, because snow cover there really isn't an issue.  I know the renewable developers I work with on community solar projects in MN have been disappointed that their energy output has been very poor in winter months, way off their estimates that drove what amount of acreage/panel arrays they needed to achieve a consistent generating capacity that moves the needle for contributing to the rural electrical grid in all seasons.  When temps are consistently sub freezing for 4+ months, furnaces chew up a ton of electricity, too.    

There's a big difference between panels operating more efficiently at lower temperatures and producing anything close to their peak power when you are daylight-limited to begin with in winter months and then have alot of snow and even worse ice that doesn't readily slide off panels - blocking sunlight and even worse damaging panels and support brackets due to weight and/or freeze/thaw cycles.    

That being said, I do think Seattle or other similar temperate climates are good places to consider residential solar systems provided you have a property with a good vantage point to consistent sunlight.  Those type of locales require very little cleaning/maintenance for the panels year round for them to keep generating electricity, and your weather events that typically cause problems (snows, hail, dust-heavy wind, etc).

 

 

[owbc]

3 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Is that estimate based on Seattle-area winters?  I'd say that's believable, because snow cover there really isn't an issue.  I know the renewable developers I work with on community solar projects in MN have been disappointed that their energy output has been very poor in winter months, way off their estimates that drove what amount of acreage/panel arrays they needed to achieve a consistent generating capacity that moves the needle for contributing to the rural electrical grid in all seasons.  When temps are consistently sub freezing for 4+ months, furnaces chew up a ton of electricity, too.    

There's a big difference between panels operating more efficiently at lower temperatures and producing anything close to their peak power when you are daylight-limited to begin with in winter months and then have alot of snow and even worse ice that doesn't readily slide off panels - blocking sunlight and even worse damaging panels and support brackets due to weight and/or freeze/thaw cycles.    

That being said, I do think Seattle or other similar temperate climates are good places to consider residential solar systems provided you have a property with a good vantage point to consistent sunlight.  Those type of locales require very little cleaning/maintenance for the panels year round for them to keep generating electricity, and your weather events that typically cause problems (snows, hail, dust-heavy wind, etc).

Yeah those are for Seattle. The snow is definitely a big problem that I don't have to deal with although if the panels are sloped the snow should slide off. 

Honestly, even more than the solar panels I wish I could get rid of my natural gas service entirely (both for earthquake safety and climate reasons) -- but as with many green upgrades it's much easier to do it with new construction than retrofit an existing home. All I have is a gas furnace, a stove, and a fireplace, but I can't put in an induction stove without running another line to my kitchen and a heat pump has to wait until my furnace dies. 

[LouisEly]

16 hours ago, owbc said:

All I have is a gas furnace, a stove, and a fireplace, but I can't put in an induction stove without running another line to my kitchen and a heat pump has to wait until my furnace dies.

Regarding the stove, how big is your family and how much baking do you do?  If you don't have a large family you can get a couple of portable induction cooktops that plug into standard 120V outlets in your home along with one or two countertop convection ovens that also plug into 120V outlets. 

Granted, it's just me, but between my small toaster oven, Ninja Foodi, microwave, and an induction cooktop I don't have to use my gas stove at all.

[owbc]

2 hours ago, LouisEly said:

Regarding the stove, how big is your family and how much baking do you do?  If you don't have a large family you can get a couple of portable induction cooktops that plug into standard 120V outlets in your home along with one or two countertop convection ovens that also plug into 120V outlets. 

Granted, it's just me, but between my small toaster oven, Ninja Foodi, microwave, and an induction cooktop I don't have to use my gas stove at all.

Very heavy into cooking and baking unfortunately!

[Fear The Chorizo]

Can't help but think some of the recent issues EV owners in Chicago and many of the other northern cities are having with the recent cold snap killing their car batteries and turning their days into white knuckle waits at charging stations that don't work well when it's zero have them second guessing their purchases for where they live.  People are frustrated at Tesla for not having much of any comment or solution to this issue, to which I'd say that they probably wouldn't want to hear the reason Tesla is quiet is there isn't a solution in very cold weather besides not driving your EV at all and just leaving it inside your garage on a trickle charger until it warms up outside.  

Widespread EVs for personal use have a purpose in the near future...just not everywhere and definitely not for everyone.

[Samurai Bucky]

1 hour ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Can't help but think some of the recent issues EV owners in Chicago and many of the other northern cities are having with the recent cold snap killing their car batteries and turning their days into white knuckle waits at charging stations that don't work well when it's zero have them second guessing their purchases for where they live.  People are frustrated at Tesla for not having much of any comment or solution to this issue, to which I'd say that they probably wouldn't want to hear the reason Tesla is quiet is there isn't a solution in very cold weather besides not driving your EV at all and just leaving it inside your garage on a trickle charger until it warms up outside.  

Widespread EVs for personal use have a purpose in the near future...just not everywhere and definitely not for everyone.

Mrs. Samurai and I were talking about this very thing last night.

Not only are batteries not as efficient as in warmer climates, but it is impossible to charge one when we lose power.  We lost power for a little over 12 hours during the last storm in the Milwaukee area.  If I had let my EV battery level get too low, it wouldn't have charged.  I might have had to decide between my EV or my electric snowblower.  Of course the response would be "get solar."  Not sure how solar performs when it is under a foot of snow and it is cloudy.

Like you said:  "Widespread EVs for personal use have a purpose in the near future...just not everywhere and definitely not for everyone."  It frustrates me when there are incentives to purchase items like EVs, and they are either not practical or simply not usable for everybody.

[owbc]

1 hour ago, Samurai Bucky said:

Mrs. Samurai and I were talking about this very thing last night.

Not only are batteries not as efficient as in warmer climates, but it is impossible to charge one when we lose power.  We lost power for a little over 12 hours during the last storm in the Milwaukee area.  If I had let my EV battery level get too low, it wouldn't have charged.  I might have had to decide between my EV or my electric snowblower.  Of course the response would be "get solar."  Not sure how solar performs when it is under a foot of snow and it is cloudy.

Like you said:  "Widespread EVs for personal use have a purpose in the near future...just not everywhere and definitely not for everyone."  It frustrates me when there are incentives to purchase items like EVs, and they are either not practical or simply not usable for everybody.

Thankfully ICE engines work perfectly in the cold and never have any problems starting on cold mornings! 

[Fear The Chorizo]

21 minutes ago, owbc said:

Thankfully ICE engines work perfectly in the cold and never have any problems starting on cold mornings! 

I get it, but theres a big reliability difference between an ICE engine with a half tank of gas and an EV with a 50% charge...that half tank is a half tank whether it's 40 degrees or minus 10 and will get you basically the same distance regardless of temp...and refilling takes 5 minutes.  A 50 percent charge that becomes 25 percent the next morning and an uncertain range sucks, and then it takes hours to recharge.

If your ICE car battery dies, it takes 5 minutes to replace that battery - with an EV, not so much.

[owbc]

1 hour ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

I get it, but theres a big reliability difference between an ICE engine with a half tank of gas and an EV with a 50% charge...that half tank is a half tank whether it's 40 degrees or minus 10 and will get you basically the same distance regardless of temp...and refilling takes 5 minutes.  A 50 percent charge that becomes 25 percent the next morning and an uncertain range sucks, and then it takes hours to recharge.

If your ICE car battery dies, it takes 5 minutes to replace that battery - with an EV, not so much.

I got a Tesla in December and have been driving it around in 10-20 degree weather this week in Seattle and haven't charged it a single time. Range is maybe 20% reduced but everybody knows that EV range is reduced in winter. It's still getting well over 200 mile range. 

No idea how it performs below zero...probably further reduced range but it doesn't get that cold here. Might be a bigger concern in the Midwest but my parents have an ID4 that they've been driving around in Milwaukee without any problems this week. 

All I'm saying is that it doesn't make the news when ICE cars have to get towed because they don't start in the cold, but Tesla owners having trouble with supercharging (due to user error) is suddenly a news story???

[Fear The Chorizo]

11 minutes ago, owbc said:

I got a Tesla in December and have been driving it around in 10-20 degree weather this week in Seattle and haven't charged it a single time. Range is maybe 20% reduced but everybody knows that EV range is reduced in winter. It's still getting well over 200 mile range. 

No idea how it performs below zero...probably further reduced range but it doesn't get that cold here. Might be a bigger concern in the Midwest but my parents have an ID4 that they've been driving around in Milwaukee without any problems this week. 

All I'm saying is that it doesn't make the news when ICE cars have to get towed because they don't start in the cold, but Tesla owners having trouble with supercharging (due to user error) is suddenly a news story???

It's not due to user error

[wallus]

Boy that Chicago story/video must have made all of the rounds in the anti EV communities because I have now seen it referenced on 4 different forums! 

As someone that has actually owned an EV, it is a different experience. You will gain convienance in some areas (charging at home and having a full SOC every morning) and lose some on others (taking roadtrips). My last roadtrip, I rented an ICE vehicle. I still come out WAY ahead overall in terms of $$.

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, wallus said:

Boy that Chicago story/video must have made all of the rounds in the anti EV communities because I have now seen it referenced on 4 different forums! 

As someone that has actually owned an EV, it is a different experience. You will gain convienance in some areas (charging at home and having a full SOC every morning) and lose some on others (taking roadtrips). My last roadtrip, I rented an ICE vehicle. I still come out WAY ahead overall in terms of $$.

It's not about being anti-EV in my opinion...it's about being realistic in the face of some upcoming sweeping mandates that make zero practical sense in many parts of the US based on the combination of infrastructure, technology limitations, geography/climate, grid capacity, and cost.

 

[LouisEly]

9 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Can't help but think some of the recent issues EV owners in Chicago and many of the other northern cities are having with the recent cold snap killing their car batteries and turning their days into white knuckle waits at charging stations that don't work well when it's zero have them second guessing their purchases for where they live. 

I live in Chicago and it's primarily because those people are relying on public chargers that are outdoors instead of having a private charger in a garage which will be much warmer than outdoors.  I say "primarily" because some people who own them don't have a garage or have a community garage (apartment or condo building) that may not have chargers or may be open-air and not fully enclosed.

People who have private chargers in fully-enclosed garages (in which they can put a space heater if necessary) aren't having these issues.  Cold weather can decrease the range and increase charging time, but it will not "kill" their batteries.

[Fear The Chorizo]

31 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

I live in Chicago and it's primarily because those people are relying on public chargers that are outdoors instead of having a private charger in a garage which will be much warmer than outdoors.  I say "primarily" because some people who own them don't have a garage or have a community garage (apartment or condo building) that may not have chargers or may be open-air and not fully enclosed.

People who have private chargers in fully-enclosed garages (in which they can put a space heater if necessary) aren't having these issues.  Cold weather can decrease the range and increase charging time, but it will not "kill" their batteries.

So the solution is for everyone to have a private garage with a space heater that runs on energy primarily from fossil fuels to heat the space up enough for a battery to actually charge?  Sounds pretty straightforward...

When these mandates about 10 years off force anyone looking to purchase a new vehicle have it be an EV, is there also a mandate for everyone in cold climates to have an enclosed garage if they want to have a vehicle?  

[LouisEly]

5 minutes ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

So the solution is for everyone to have a private garage with a space heater that runs on energy primarily from fossil fuels to heat the space up enough for a battery to actually charge? 

For the 3-4 days a year that this is actually an issue, yes.

And yes, anyone who lives somewhere with a very cold winter climate should be aware that if they don't have an enclosed garage with a private charger and rely on outdoor public charging stations this can happen the 3-4 days a year that it gets that cold.

[Fear The Chorizo]

40 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

For the 3-4 days a year that this is actually an issue, yes.

And yes, anyone who lives somewhere with a very cold winter climate should be aware that if they don't have an enclosed garage with a private charger and rely on outdoor public charging stations this can happen the 3-4 days a year that it gets that cold.

I don't think you'd be OK with the impact of that game plan on an annual basis in Chicago if there are 95x more EVs on the road than there are right now (many of which wouldnt be with owners who dont have a property with a garage they call home), but maybe you are.

 

All I'm saying is the blanket mandates for EVs make no sense for a place with winter and they really need to be retooled/phased in much more gradually in cold weather climates...if people have the means, desire to own one, and are ok with the limitations they come with for the benefit of having your vehicle emissions blow out a power plant stack instead of a tailpipe in those areas now, well before the technology and infrastructure can actually support everyone having that type of car in those areas, more power to them. 

[wallus]

3 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

It's not about being anti-EV in my opinion...it's about being realistic in the face of some upcoming sweeping mandates that make zero practical sense in many parts of the US based on the combination of infrastructure, technology limitations, geography/climate, grid capacity, and cost.

 

The only limitation is charging stations and they are adding 125 per day right now. 

[igor67]

I'm not sure how the Tesla's are designed, but my Bolt doesn't loose energy like a normal car battery does in the cold, it burns the energy to keep the battery warmer, so it actually helps to heat the garage. It's designed to be plugged in and remote started in this weather. That helps preserve the battery because it preheats everything. I certainly understand the issue about needing a garage. We waited to make the jump until we were back in Wisconsin because our garage in the Twin Cities had no electric, so the charger install would have been very expensive. That said simple chargers with just a 220V hook-up are not very expensive at all, and if apartments with parking installed them it would be a huge boost to the accessibility.

[nate82]

The rebate for EV's should be going to hybrids only with no rebate or government subsidy for EV's.  Actually there should be no government subsidy for anything.  But if you want to help the environment then giving the subsidy to hybrids should have been the go to option and not EV's.  This would have made hybrids more affordable to lower income drivers.  Lower income individuals tend to have older cars with worse emissions.  Higher income individuals tend to have newer cars with better emissions. 

The government once again got it backwards not surprising as our politicians sure love to stick it to the middle and lower class.