Electric Vehicles

[Brock Beauchamp]

One of the things that bothers me most about electrification is that, like so many other things, we largely approached the problem bass-ackwards.

The biggest, most inefficient vehicles should have been addressed first: fleet vehicles. School buses, delivery trucks, vans, fleet pick-ups... those should have been our first electrification. Instead, they're some of the last vehicles being addressed. Fleet vehicles are PERFECT for electrification; they drive around cities (where ICE are at their worst and EVs at their best), they drive limited miles per day (negating range issues), they're WILDLY inefficient, and they have a ton of downtime to recharge.

Instead, the first cost-effective EV was the Chevy Bolt, a commuter car that replaces 40mpg ICE commuter cars. The net benefit there is at its lowest. Where the big changes can happen is in those larger, inefficient vehicles that sit around idling in traffic for a significant portion of the day.

[igor67]

I think in this case though the fleet vehicles took longer because of their larger size needing larger batteries and creating a mismatch until the energy density of the batteries improved. Fleet vehicles have started at least, it will just take some time because they are a big capital investment for those companies and I'm sure it is much easier to do that as part of their normal replacement cycle.

I do believe that Chevy is offering 1 charging station with their new EVs if that helps anyone out. Between lower tradesmen rates and a better set-up it would be way cheaper for me to install 1 at my cabin ( easy access to a breaker box already in the garage) vs. my city garage that has no electricity currently.

I could see the sort of cost difference on the generator, but my cabin rarely needs the back-up (It's on a major transmission line and is always a high priority to get back up) so having to maintain a gas generator isn't terribly appealing. My bigger issue is seeing how the technical specs work since I have a number of higher voltage circuits.

[tmwiese55]

Noticed someone mentioned will there be charging stations in rental apartments, etc.   Due to managing a property I became aware of a law/code that all new apartment/condo type buildings have to be built with charging stations, at least in WI(ETA: hindsight could be Madison).  Top of my head, I think it's something like it has to be 30% of the allowed cars/stalls, or something of that nature.   Old buildings are grandfathered and don't have to add them. But if all new ones have them and you don't it will really hurt your ability to rent, or sell, down the line. So many will eventually pay up the money to get up to the new code/rule. 

[nate82]

Semi’s should be the last to ever become EV’s.  There are far better options right now like natural gas.  For example methane natural gas burns a lot cleaner and is fairly close to a zero emissions like an EV.

Plus we have an abundance of methane from dairy farms and landfills that can be used.  Methane can also use the existing natural gas infrastructure to deliver the gas.  Semi trucks and heavy machinery should be moving to natural gas and not EV’s.

[owbc]

20 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Semi’s should be the last to ever become EV’s.  There are far better options right now like natural gas.  For example methane natural gas burns a lot cleaner and is fairly close to a zero emissions like an EV.

Plus we have an abundance of methane from dairy farms and landfills that can be used.  Methane can also use the existing natural gas infrastructure to deliver the gas.  Semi trucks and heavy machinery should be moving to natural gas and not EV’s.

Unfortunately natural gas still emits about 60-70% of the CO2 that diesel does. Obviously much, much better in terms of particulate pollution, SO2, and NOx. Plus it has the same problems with global supply and geopolitics that every other hydrocarbon does. Extraction from farms and landfills requires new technology and infrastructure (I have a close friend who works on this problem). It's worth doing, but it's not a scalable solution when methane is easy to extract in other ways. 

In a couple of US cities they are running some pilots of battery-powered buses. Batteries actually work well for buses because there is always down time at the beginning/end of a route to charge. And as noted earlier, stop/go vehicles are ideal for electrification. I do think that long haul semi trucks and heavy machinery will be the last to transition. 

It's been interesting already to see that oil companies have not made any effort to increase production during the latest price spike. The reality is that electrification is going to drop oil demand in the 5-10 year time horizon. It looks like massive green energy and electric vehicle credits may be on the way from Congress if the proposed bill gets passed. 

[nate82]

There is a company called Opal that is already doing the methane extraction and have contracts with waste management already and a few other companies.  They are using the current natural gas infrastructure to move the fuel.  

[GAME05]

32 minutes ago, owbc said:

In a couple of US cities they are running some pilots of battery-powered buses. Batteries actually work well for buses because there is always down time at the beginning/end of a route to charge. And as noted earlier, stop/go vehicles are ideal for electrification. I do think that long haul semi trucks and heavy machinery will be the last to transition.

I used to write/edit a magazine about mass transit. Buses are usually the first to get experimented on when it comes to alternatives because you can get millions of miles on them in short order. I even wrote an article about NYCT buying something like 250 hybrid-electric buses. Natural gas and methane-driven buses have been out there even longer than batteries.

[igor67]

On the other hand it is worth considering that if we are talking specifically about capturing methane that would otherwise be released, converting that into CO2 is a net win in terms of climate impact. Having a diversity of approaches is good because inevitably 1 solution will not work best in all situations.

[Samurai Bucky]

Maybe Hydrogen is the answer at some point?  If I recall correctly, the only emissions are water.

[wallus]

6 hours ago, Samurai Bucky said:

Some follow up questions I was hoping you could answer:

• Did you have any additional hardware installed at home to charge your vehicle?
• If so, how much did it cost to install and what are the specs (I saw that "Level 3" is typically used only for commercial entities)?
• What is your average drive (20 miles a day, etc.)?
• What is the longest trip you took with your car?  How long did you have to wait to "recharge" during the trip?

We have a cabin up north -- way up north.  If it costs a large sum of money to put in a charging station at home and up north, that doesn't make sense for me.  Likewise, if I travel a few hours to my parents' house in a small town, will I have to find a charging station somewhere so I can charge it while I visit them?  If I "run out of a charge" on the road, do I need to get towed to the nearest charging station, or does AAA have a big truck that can give me enough juice to get to the nearest charging station?

I see EV in my future at some point, but I'm not ready to pull the trigger, yet.

I have no additional hardware installed to charge. Honestly, I don't really need it. I live 5 miles from where I work. I did a 200 mile trip once. There were no legitimate chargers so I hypermiled my way home. Get your **** together FDL and Sheboygan...

So in 18 months, I have only wanted to use a supercharger once. I think if they put stations off of major highways every 50 miles, that would be enough. It is sad we are not even there yet in Wisconsin.

[RobertR]

Buses are extremely efficient on a per passenger basis. As is mass transit in general. Yeah a bus may only get 10 mpg, but it can transport up to 60 people making the passenger miles per gallon much better than a little compact.

 

[homer]

37 minutes ago, RobertR said:

Buses are extremely efficient on a per passenger basis. As is mass transit in general. Yeah a bus may only get 10 mpg, but it can transport up to 60 people making the passenger miles per gallon much better than a little compact.

 

Ultimately, the goal should probably not be to replace every vehicle in the US with EV. I'm making this number up, but let's say there's 200 million cars, the goal should be replace 100 million and then convert to other modes of transit so we don't need the other 100 million.

If you want a source of mobility that doesn't pollute the air, doesn't involving mining, doesn't incur geopolitical risks, then start investing in bike and pedestrian infrastructure for those that are able. Obviously this is specific to cities and not most rural areas.

[owbc]

5 hours ago, homer said:

Ultimately, the goal should probably not be to replace every vehicle in the US with EV. I'm making this number up, but let's say there's 200 million cars, the goal should be replace 100 million and then convert to other modes of transit so we don't need the other 100 million.

If you want a source of mobility that doesn't pollute the air, doesn't involving mining, doesn't incur geopolitical risks, then start investing in bike and pedestrian infrastructure for those that are able. Obviously this is specific to cities and not most rural areas.

Even with full electrification of passenger vehicles, miles driven still need to be reduced by 33% to hit the Paris climate goals.

[RobertR]

I agree that electric vehicles aren't a cure all. But, I think that single passenger vehicles are the biggest bang for the buck. Mail trucks are a pretty good starting point, for instance, with the fleet sales being something that can be relatively easily transitioned to. 

I wish that there was an easy transition to more mass transit. But urban sprawl, for a variety of reasons, isn't something easily fixed.

[homer]

11 hours ago, RobertR said:

I agree that electric vehicles aren't a cure all. But, I think that single passenger vehicles are the biggest bang for the buck. Mail trucks are a pretty good starting point, for instance, with the fleet sales being something that can be relatively easily transitioned to. 

I wish that there was an easy transition to more mass transit. But urban sprawl, for a variety of reasons, isn't something easily fixed.

I hope UPS and Amazon switch to EVs at some point.

re: urban sprawl. I agree that it would be futile to "pedestrianize" far reaching suburbs and ex-urbs. Taking Milwaukee as an example, I think you could do a ton inside the confines of Milwaukee county. Outside of that would be tough.

[LouisEly]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:30 AM, homer said:

I hope UPS and Amazon switch to EVs at some point.

Already happening with Amazon and their partnership with Rivian

[MrTPlush]

What exactly is the purpose of Kwik Trip putting in an outlet for EVs...like Level 1 charging outlet? Is it just some dumb concept so they can show up on EV charger maps online? Because even if you decided to spend 30 minutes inside Kwik Trip you are talking like...a few miles of EV charge. They even plop it on the side of the vacuum/tire pump to waste a space if someone actually parks to plug their car in.

When I saw kwik trip show up on charging maps I assumed people were randomly plugging into the side of the building.

[nate82]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

What exactly is the purpose of Kwik Trip putting in an outlet for EVs...like Level 1 charging outlet? Is it just some dumb concept so they can show up on EV charger maps online? Because even if you decided to spend 30 minutes inside Kwik Trip you are talking like...a few miles of EV charge. They even plop it on the side of the vacuum/tire pump to waste a space if someone actually parks to plug their car in.

When I saw kwik trip show up on charging maps I assumed people were randomly plugging into the side of the building.

If it is a fast charging station then 30 minutes would be about an 80%+ charge.  But I highly doubt Kwik Trip installed one of those it is probably just a basic one.  

[MrTPlush]

8 minutes ago, nate82 said:

If it is a fast charging station then 30 minutes would be about an 80%+ charge.  But I highly doubt Kwik Trip installed one of those it is probably just a basic one.  

It is (no joke) a GFCI outlet on a post. 

[owbc]

On 9/19/2022 at 9:38 AM, MrTPlush said:

It is (no joke) a GFCI outlet on a post. 

Hahahaha. Why???? Even a Level-2 at a gas station is pretty much worthless. I sometimes use Level-2 chargers at restaurants or in parking garages, that gets me up to a full charge in 2-3 hours (I have a plug-in hybrid so a full charge is about 20-25 miles in EV mode). 

Edit: from a web search it appears those 120V chargers were installed back in 2011, probably as a publicity stunt. They recently installed a Level-3 charger for the first time. 

[wallus]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:51 PM, owbc said:

Hahahaha. Why???? Even a Level-2 at a gas station is pretty much worthless. I sometimes use Level-2 chargers at restaurants or in parking garages, that gets me up to a full charge in 2-3 hours (I have a plug-in hybrid so a full charge is about 20-25 miles in EV mode). 

Edit: from a web search it appears those 120V chargers were installed back in 2011, probably as a publicity stunt. They recently installed a Level-3 charger for the first time. 

I thought I might need a charge in Sheboygan so I went out of my way to go to a KT. What a huge waste of time and embarrassing for KT to even have it. Thanks for reminding me how angry I was when I saw this.

[MrTPlush]

The plans for the EV charging locations from the federal funding have been announced. These are fast charging stations, not Level 2 stations. Many interstates and areas around Milwaukee/Madison, however some notable Northwoods locations will soon see better EV support. Hopes are they can start construction in the spring. The bolded ones below are some of the major corridors to or in the Northwoods.

• Interstate 41
• Interstate 43
• Interstate 90
• Interstate 94
• Interstate 535
• U.S. Highway 8
• U.S. Highway 41
• U.S. Highway 53
• U.S. Highway 151
• Part of U.S. Highway 2
• Part of U.S. Highway 29
• Part of U.S. Highway 51
• Part of U.S. Highway 141

The intention is to have a minimum 4 car charger every 50 miles. Not sure what 'part of' really means. May mean they are spaced out much more than that or one part of the highway may be entirely ignored. This is honestly really nice from a tourism standpoint. Places like Minneapolis/Chicago area EVs are becoming very popular and they certainly are a huge chunk of northern Wisconsin tourism. 

Interesting I-39 is getting completely ignored.

 

[homer]

10 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

The plans for the EV charging locations from the federal funding have been announced. These are fast charging stations, not Level 2 stations. Many interstates and areas around Milwaukee/Madison, however some notable Northwoods locations will soon see better EV support. Hopes are they can start construction in the spring. The bolded ones below are some of the major corridors to or in the Northwoods.

• Interstate 41
• Interstate 43
• Interstate 90
• Interstate 94
• Interstate 535
• U.S. Highway 8
• U.S. Highway 41
• U.S. Highway 53
• U.S. Highway 151
• Part of U.S. Highway 2
• Part of U.S. Highway 29
• Part of U.S. Highway 51
• Part of U.S. Highway 141

The intention is to have a minimum 4 car charger every 50 miles. Not sure what 'part of' really means. May mean they are spaced out much more than that or one part of the highway may be entirely ignored. This is honestly really nice from a tourism standpoint. Places like Minneapolis/Chicago area EVs are becoming very popular and they certainly are a huge chunk of northern Wisconsin tourism. 

Interesting I-39 is getting completely ignored.

 

I think I-39 is included. The list is on page 67 (unless I'm reading this wrong. I just skimmed it)

https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/WEVI-plan-final-22-0914.pdf

[MrTPlush]

1 hour ago, homer said:

I think I-39 is included. The list is on page 67 (unless I'm reading this wrong. I just skimmed it)

https://wisconsindot.gov/Documents/projects/WEVI-plan-final-22-0914.pdf

Thanks for that. None of the news articles I saw listed I-39 nor did it link the document you did. Seemed illogical to leave out that area.

[Brock Beauchamp]

23 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

The plans for the EV charging locations from the federal funding have been announced. These are fast charging stations, not Level 2 stations. Many interstates and areas around Milwaukee/Madison, however some notable Northwoods locations will soon see better EV support. Hopes are they can start construction in the spring. The bolded ones below are some of the major corridors to or in the Northwoods.

• Interstate 41
• Interstate 43
• Interstate 90
• Interstate 94
• Interstate 535
• U.S. Highway 8
• U.S. Highway 41
• U.S. Highway 53
• U.S. Highway 151
• Part of U.S. Highway 2
• Part of U.S. Highway 29
• Part of U.S. Highway 51
• Part of U.S. Highway 141

The intention is to have a minimum 4 car charger every 50 miles. Not sure what 'part of' really means. May mean they are spaced out much more than that or one part of the highway may be entirely ignored. This is honestly really nice from a tourism standpoint. Places like Minneapolis/Chicago area EVs are becoming very popular and they certainly are a huge chunk of northern Wisconsin tourism. 

Interesting I-39 is getting completely ignored.

This is great news. When I bought a Volt (electric hybrid) three years ago, the only reason I didn't go full electric is because my wife (a trucking attorney) sometimes has to drive into outstate Minnesota and Wisconsin to interview clients (truckers are often in rural locations). Charging availability wasn't scarce, it was non-existent. I expect to be looking at buying a new car in about two years so I'm really hoping we can go full electric this time around.