Electric Vehicles

[igor67]

That is what I believe the data will eventually show as well on the repair side and is why I jumped all the way to fully electric once I had the chance. 19,000 miles and the only repair costs are $20 to rotate the tires and a windshield crack repair from a rock. We will see how things look as we get closer to 100K, but for right now all the pre-purchase research is turning out like expected, including not buying a Tesla.

[owbc]

EV batteries outlive the vehicles. The current generation will still retain 70%-80% of capacity after 15 years and will continue functioning well beyond that. When the cars are junked the batteries are going to get pulled out of the vehicles and moved to grid storage, where they are still incredibly useful even at half their original capacity. Batteries banks are going to allow us to eventually get to a near 100% wind+solar grid since they solve the main problem with those sources (the lack of sun+wind at night).

[Fear The Chorizo]

On 8/14/2024 at 11:48 AM, owbc said:

EV batteries outlive the vehicles. The current generation will still retain 70%-80% of capacity after 15 years and will continue functioning well beyond that. When the cars are junked the batteries are going to get pulled out of the vehicles and moved to grid storage, where they are still incredibly useful even at half their original capacity. Batteries banks are going to allow us to eventually get to a near 100% wind+solar grid since they solve the main problem with those sources (the lack of sun+wind at night).

No, no battery banks will not.  Many of my main clients are BESS developers, and they're primarily looking to set up facilities near/on existing or planned renewable developments that in no way are set up to generate the energy needed for heavy manufacturing processes. Or large urban population centers. These facilities will readily store energy generated from the renewable sources whenever they are generating it, and attempt to contribute it to the grid at a measured rate around the clock or as needed instead of just being "all or nothing, regardless of whether or not the grid needs it" like renewable energy has typically been added to the grid.  It will make the actual consumption of that energy more efficient.  Because of that, several BESS clients I'm working with are much more interested in sites next to fossil fuel power plants than renewables - due to their ability to provide excess capacity with the flip of a switch that can quickly be stored away in those battery facilities instead of it just dissipating as grid loss and being wasted.  It's actually a really good idea to help make the energy generation to consumption much more efficient regardless of what the fuel source was.

The main problem with those renewable sources isn't the sporadic reliability due to weather/nighttime/geographical climate limitations - it's the amount of real estate and materials needed to build large enough generating farms to actually replace the steady state grid capacity that fossil fuel or nuclear plants can do in their sleep.

With the rising cost of all new vehicles and car insurance, now more than ever people are willing to pay more for significant repair costs to keep their existing  older vehicles on the road as long as they possible can.  That will also be a persistent drag on the pace of overall EV passenger vehicles added to the road.

[BrewerFan]

On 8/14/2024 at 11:48 AM, owbc said:

EV batteries outlive the vehicles. The current generation will still retain 70%-80% of capacity after 15 years and will continue functioning well beyond that. When the cars are junked the batteries are going to get pulled out of the vehicles and moved to grid storage, where they are still incredibly useful even at half their original capacity. Batteries banks are going to allow us to eventually get to a near 100% wind+solar grid since they solve the main problem with those sources (the lack of sun+wind at night).

I think a lot of the anti-EV is just being stubborn at this point.

They're cheaper to maintain, to fix, the battery is used to scared people, but the battery life is incredibly reliable and only getting better.

The price point on EVs is competitive. 

As for Hybrids? I REALLY don't get the argument they're not worth it. 

Just bought a new Tundra hybrid this year. I love it. Drives like a luxury SUV, it's got power and it gets better gas mileage than a comparable truck. 

My sister has had a Prius since...I think '08. She's driven it to Texas, California, moved around the Country. 330K on it and she hasn't had to spend any money other than on things she broke.
He Husband bought a Ram. A big Diesal(they're real cheap to fix, right). 2021, he put 5K into it last year when the electric went. Put another 6 this year when there was something wrong with the exhaust and then the heat. 

 

An EV could run on a charger that uses human waste to power and prove that they're all objectively cheaper to maintain, and SOME people would still say an ICE is better and they won't care. But it won't matter, we're going to have EV power stations everywhere just as you have gas and we're going forward with EVs. 

[BrewerFan]

21 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

With the rising cost of all new vehicles and car insurance, now more than ever people are willing to pay more for significant repair costs to keep their existing  older vehicles on the road as long as they possible can.  That will also be a persistent drag on the pace of overall EV passenger vehicles added to the road.

The cost of new Vehicles is decreasing, not increasing.

Go to any dealer and they've extra inventory. I think it's been roughly the last 12 months new car prices have been going down. They shot up due to covid, especially trucks, people couldn't find what they needed and they're coming back down. 

[LouisEly]

The whole hybrid is the way to go thing recently is a knee-jerk reaction to a news story from a year and a half ago that went viral about a bunch of Teslas in Chicago that wouldn't charge at outdoor public charging stations during a 3-day stretch in January when it was 15 degrees below zero.

Electric isn't for everyone (right now), and if you need to use outdoor public charging stations in northern climates you need to prepare for a couple of days a year where it may be too cold to charge.  For those 3 days a year or whatever you need to plan ahead and charge in advance or anticipate that you may not be able to use your vehicle, but in general, you shouldn't be relying on outdoor public charging stations during the winter in certain northern climates.

This is part of a larger thing I don't understand, which is why someone would buy a nice vehicle if they have to park it on the street.

[BrewerFan]

55 minutes ago, LouisEly said:

The whole hybrid is the way to go thing recently is a knee-jerk reaction to a news story from a year and a half ago that went viral about a bunch of Teslas in Chicago that wouldn't charge at outdoor public charging stations during a 3-day stretch in January when it was 15 degrees below zero.

Electric isn't for everyone (right now), and if you need to use outdoor public charging stations in northern climates you need to prepare for a couple of days a year where it may be too cold to charge.  For those 3 days a year or whatever you need to plan ahead and charge in advance or anticipate that you may not be able to use your vehicle, but in general, you shouldn't be relying on outdoor public charging stations during the winter in certain northern climates.

This is part of a larger thing I don't understand, which is why someone would buy a nice vehicle if they have to park it on the street.

Yeah, I'd buy a old beat up vehicle if I had to park it on the street still. That's foolish. 

As for the Hybrid's, I bought a Hybrid because I need a full 350-400 mile range(300, but I'm towing a little). And that's what I use my Truck for the most. If Toyota had an EV Truck and I could charge it in Northern Wisconsin, or if there were places to charge the Rivian, I'd absolutely have one. 

 

I bought the Tundra because I fully expect there to be EVs in the next couple of years that have much better batteries and it has good resale. 

The anecdote about my sisters was more just...the idea that they're so expensive to fix...that car doesn't have one square e foot that hasn't come into contact with concrete, metal or some hard object, but it's still runs really well. I've had to swap and it drives great. 350K on it. 

[igor67]

So Consumer reports is finding that the promise of lower maintenance costs for EVs holds up. They focus just on costs posts warranty but it is helpful to see 3rd party verification.

https://autos.yahoo.com/report-reveals-car-lowest-maintenance-104511012.html

 

[Samurai Bucky]

44 minutes ago, igor67 said:

So Consumer reports is finding that the promise of lower maintenance costs for EVs holds up. They focus just on costs posts warranty but it is helpful to see 3rd party verification.

https://autos.yahoo.com/report-reveals-car-lowest-maintenance-104511012.html

 

Interesting...

I did a quick search to see how much the difference is by state.  This is from 2003, so it is a little old and I'm sure the ratio is changing rapidly.

There is a nice interactive map in the middle of the article.

Apologies if this was posted before.

https://www.self.inc/info/electric-cars-vs-gas-cars-cost/

[MrTPlush]

19 hours ago, Samurai Bucky said:

Interesting...

I did a quick search to see how much the difference is by state.  This is from 2003, so it is a little old and I'm sure the ratio is changing rapidly.

There is a nice interactive map in the middle of the article.

Apologies if this was posted before.

https://www.self.inc/info/electric-cars-vs-gas-cars-cost/

It is kinda dumb every EV comp has to be Tesla. Tesla is a luxury sedan and a Model Y has a $700 monthly payment assuming you put $4k down and assuming you have the tax liability to get the full tax credit. People comping a Tesla/Mercedes/Lexus don't really give a crud about saving $100 a month on maintenance. Telling the average person "Look! A Tesla is so much more affordable than a A-Class" is just kind of LOL level stuff.

Article is kind of proof there really isn't a great EV option for the normal consumer. The best comps are the Lexus/Mercedes, but the Civic is actually what a cost-conscious consumer is buying. Thus, in the end, a gas-powered vehicle is still incredibly cheaper to buy/maintain. 

[Fear The Chorizo]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

It is kinda dumb every EV comp has to be Tesla. Tesla is a luxury sedan and a Model Y has a $700 monthly payment assuming you put $4k down and assuming you have the tax liability to get the full tax credit. People comping a Tesla/Mercedes/Lexus don't really give a crud about saving $100 a month on maintenance. Telling the average person "Look! A Tesla is so much more affordable than a A-Class" is just kind of LOL level stuff.

Article is kind of proof there really isn't a great EV option for the normal consumer. The best comps are the Lexus/Mercedes, but the Civic is actually what a cost-conscious consumer is buying. Thus, in the end, a gas-powered vehicle is still incredibly cheaper to buy/maintain. 

Agreed, and that sentiment doesn't even take into account the lack of EV comps to ICE vehicles manufactured for consumers in developing countries, where a Civic would be considered luxurious.  Sure, people will continually say that "those more budget-friendly EV's will be here and to market soon"...without realizing the sheer scale of what they are assuming can readily happen actually is globally.  

[nate82]

Ford and Toyota will be shipping less EV’s to dealerships well because the EV buyers don’t go to dealerships.  Expect to see less supply of Ford and Toyota EV’s at the dealerships.  Ford has sold more EV’s on their website versus what has been sold at the dealerships.

Ford actually ran out of stock on their website and the customers still didn’t buy from their local dealerships.  Ford is currently looking to reduce their EV offerings to dealerships and will sell the majority of their EV’s on a direct to consumer model similar to Tesla.

GM will also discontinue manufacturing the Chevy Bolt.  The lower cost EV’s are dying fast as buyers for the lower end EV’s are just not buying them.  For every Bolt that GM sells they lose about $9000 which makes sense as the Bolt is super basic and lacking features that are at that price range for other ICE vehicles.

[owbc]

If you want an EV on a budget right now the best option is a used Model Y. 

Or the Hyundai Kona if buying new. 

 

 

[MrTPlush]

3 hours ago, owbc said:

If you want an EV on a budget right now the best option is a used Model Y. 

Or the Hyundai Kona if buying new. 

 

 

Wouldn’t a Model 3 be the best used option? You could definitely find a used Model 3 for $25k or less…thus get a nice $4k or so tax credit. Assuming you can sneak under the income limitation.

[nate82]

22 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Wouldn’t a Model 3 be the best used option? You could definitely find a used Model 3 for $25k or less…thus get a nice $4k or so tax credit. Assuming you can sneak under the income limitation.

I think a Model 3 depending on the year may only have 1-year or less on its battery warranty.  So depending on the battery that is a $13k-$28k expense to replace the batteries.

Probably be better off to just get a used model y as the battery warranty would still be good. 

[MrTPlush]

1 hour ago, nate82 said:

I think a Model 3 depending on the year may only have 1-year or less on its battery warranty.  So depending on the battery that is a $13k-$28k expense to replace the batteries.

Probably be better off to just get a used model y as the battery warranty would still be good. 

I believe it is 8/120k for AWD. Looks like 2020s are easy to get for under $25k, though I have heard a better and (in theory) way more reliable battery started going in the ‘21s. So I suppose this may be a year off being a good plan for someone. You can find ‘21s, but they have around 80k miles

$21k for a Model 3 with 40k miles or so. Seems a lot more logical for a normal consumer to find as a real option.

 

[Joseph Zarr]

All this talk of dealerships makes me want to share a recent experience at a Toyota Dealership in Spokane Valley south of me:

My wife has a 2009 RAV 4. It's a commuter - we drive our daughter roughly 50 minutes to her school in Sandpoint, Idaho every day. We need the AWD and the burly AT tires. Anywho, this is a used vehicle - my personal vehicle take is I will own them outright - no liens no interest payments. I perform most of the mechanical work myself (I'm a farmer so have been fixing my tractors for many man years); and because I buy used I know I am behind the eight ball from the get go. It's a decision I'm comfortable with knowing buying a new vehicle is an instantly depreciated investment. Anywho, I swapped out her charcoal Evap canister set up (driver's side essentially right below the back of the driver's seat) within the first months of us shipping this low-mileage biscuit. This was just after I had to pick-and-pull a replacement rear differential - drive one it was uber-apparent the bearings were shot. You never know what you're truly getting when your shipping these vehicles but I trust I can fix most and if the engine is good I really don't care. Anywho, when I was replacing the Evap set up I noticed the hard plastic cover's plastic fastening hardware was wearing thin. Sure enough, in her last road trip the cover fell off. Now, I don't have these weird pieces of 'hardware' to re-fasten it. SO, I decided to take it to the dealership to simply re-attach it. This is where it gets hilarious and classic dealership repair shop experience. 

I expressly told them: I just want you to attach that piece for me and I'll be on my way. 

As part of their repair process, however, they have to do an All Points Inspection type thing. SO, after they attached the cover they gave me their recommended laundry list of repairs. Keep in mind: I bought this vehicle outright for roughly $11,500. They showed me a repair list covering $9,500 of work. 😅 Oh man. It was like a Les Schwab (the corporate tire and suspension shop out this way) experience on steroids. I mean it's amazing what they try to get away with. Needless to say, I did not take them up on this enticing offer of mostly entirely unnecessary work.

[LouisEly]

I don't know if this is just in Colorado, but I saw a commercial on the Brewers post-game for a Hyundai Ionic 5 24-month lease for $141/mo with $141 down.  Included a $13K EV lease bonus and a CO $5,300 tax credit.  I'm sure it's the base model with RWD, but a nicer model with AWD shouldn't be more than $300/mo assuming the same incentives.

Even so, what type of new vehicle are you going to get for $141/mo and $141 down?

 

[homer]

https://insideevs.com/news/789214/byd-great-tang-ev-suv-ultra-fast-charging-range/

BYD Great Tang in rear-wheel drive configuration boasts a 590-mile (950 km) maximum estimated range, but bear in mind that this figure is likely a result of China’s CLTC procedure, which is known for producing rather optimistic results, mostly due to the cycle’s high city driving weighting. If the impressive electric SUV were to ever set foot in the U.S., its EPA rating would likely be somewhere around the 400-mile (643 km) mark

1,500-kilowatt Flash charging capabilities that can replenish the car’s battery as quickly as a traditional gas fill-up. According to BYD, its second-gen Blade battery can go from 10% to 97% state of charge in just nine minutes when connected to its latest Flash chargers

Even at a freezing temperature of -22°F (-30°C), BYD’s new LFP battery can charge from 20-97% in about 12 minutes, which is unlike anything available today in the United States

[wallus]

Yes China is ahead of the west in EVs. Imagine where we would be if half of our population didn't actively root against progress.

[Fear The Chorizo]

On 3/22/2026 at 9:51 AM, wallus said:

Yes China is ahead of the west in EVs. Imagine where we would be if half of our population didn't actively root against progress.

Maybe it also has something to do with the fact China makes almost 80% of the world's EV batteries, they control a large percentage of the globe's developed mining reserves of materials needed to manufacture said batteries with next to no environmental regulatory burdens, and they are much more dependent on foreign oil than the United States.

 

[LouisEly]

China also has had significantly worse air pollution in major cities than big cities in the US.

[owbc]

We've been an all-EV household for 2 1/2 years now. I recently got my electric usage monitoring working -- the electricity cost is about $5 per 100 miles. 

[igor67]

I get a discounted rate on my home charger since it won't use peak electricity, So I get all the way down to 2.25 per 100 miles 

[wallus]

7 hours ago, Fear The Chorizo said:

Maybe it also has something to do with the fact China makes almost 80% of the world's EV batteries, they control a large percentage of the globe's developed mining reserves of materials needed to manufacture said batteries with next to no environmental regulatory burdens

 

We had plenty of time to fix this if both political sides would have had long term thinking.