Josh Hader Traded to the Padres

[Hopper]

One thing that really disappoints me is the fact we traded for an outfielder.  Our farm is stacked with outfielders, I mean LOADED!

Was that really the position to grab when we still don't have a decent 1B or 3B in the system?

Yelich will be in LF for a while yet, that leaves CF and RF (which Renfroe will be holding down for the near future)

Let's say Frelick, Mitchell and Wiemer are ready to go, now add Ruiz into the mix.  That is quite a logjam if all those guys pan out and are ready to make the big jump at or around the same time.  (yeah, yeah, I know, prospects are prospects and there is no guarantee that will happen, but still...)

So many things about this deadline are confusing.

 

[Hopper]

unless of course, they plan to have Ruiiz start working out at 2B again, but I have seen nothing mentioning that anyplace.

[SRB]

I'm even less a fan of the trade now that it's clear the front office considered Lamet a throw-in, but just to correct one notion I've seen in various threads: I feel like there is zero chance the front office traded Josh Hader on a whim or that they didn't do their full due diligence in concluding that this was the best offer available. I suspect they've been soft shopping Hader (or at least fielding offers) for over a year now.

In my mind there are two possibilities, either teams are more sophisticated than they used to be and are no longer willing to give up as much for closers, or the Brewers front office is extremely high on Gasser and Ruiz and considers them top 100 caliber prospects. (For the team's sake I'm hoping for the latter.)

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

13 hours ago, Hopper said:

One thing that really disappoints me is the fact we traded for an outfielder.  Our farm is stacked with outfielders, I mean LOADED!

Was that really the position to grab when we still don't have a decent 1B or 3B in the system?

Yelich will be in LF for a while yet, that leaves CF and RF (which Renfroe will be holding down for the near future)

Let's say Frelick, Mitchell and Wiemer are ready to go, now add Ruiz into the mix.  That is quite a logjam if all those guys pan out and are ready to make the big jump at or around the same time.  (yeah, yeah, I know, prospects are prospects and there is no guarantee that will happen, but still...)

So many things about this deadline are confusing.

 

The nice thing about high-end, young, athletic and cost-controlled OFers is that they have a lot of value in potential trades. I expect that Frelick, Mitchell, Wiemer and Ruiz are all going to at least be solid MLB OFers. What I DO NOT expect, though, is for all of them to be solid MLB OFers for the Brewers. At least long term.

[NBBrewFan]

11 hours ago, SRB said:

In my mind there are two possibilities, either teams are more sophisticated than they used to be and are no longer willing to give up as much for closers, or the Brewers front office is extremely high on Gasser and Ruiz and considers them top 100 caliber prospects. (For the team's sake I'm hoping for the latter.)

Or, just off the top of my head, to get the best return you need competition bidding for the player.  What other playoff team needed a closer at the Deadline?  Only the Padres? I could be selling a Silver coin worth $50, but if the best offer is $35 I either sit and wait for another offer or I have to make the deal.

[wntrtxn21]

19 minutes ago, NBBrewFan said:

Or, just off the top of my head, to get the best return you need competition bidding for the player.  What other playoff team needed a closer at the Deadline?  Only the Padres? I could be selling a Silver coin worth $50, but if the best offer is $35 I either sit and wait for another offer or I have to make the deal.

A pitcher who Stearns would DFA less than 20 hours later - a struggling relief pitcher who will go gone next year - the Padres'  24th rated prospect, yet another OF in a system loaded with OFs - 15th rated prospect in Padres' system who projects to be a swing man... If that's the best Stearns could get,  he should have kept Hader and traded him at the end of the season. The return couldn't be much weaker. 

[MNBrew]

It's been noted several times (over several seasons) that the Brewers weren't out there trying to trade Hader.  But Stearns says all the time (when asked) that they listen.  Obviously most of the time they don't act because they're either not interested in moving the player in question or because the offer isn't compelling.

It's somewhere between curious & bothersome that the best closer in baseball right now nets only the return Hader did, yet Juan Soto is worth half of a high-end farm system's top 10 prospects.  Deciding afterward that Lamet wasn't worth keeping makes the "worthwhile" return for Hader seem even more suspect.  I'm a pretty relentless Brewers optimist, but this one's got me concerned.

It wouldn't surprise me if the team's reeling a bit because of the Hader trade.  Even though the past 4 games have featured blown leads & mostly no late-inning offense (heck, hardly any late-inning hits, whereas Pittsburgh had few problems with clutch hitting), it wouldn't surprise me to see this team under Counsell pull it together because it's still a good team with a lot of good, proven relievers, Hader's absence notwithstanding.

[NBBrewFan]

7 minutes ago, wntrtxn21 said:

A pitcher who Stearns would DFA less than 20 hours later - a struggling relief pitcher who will go gone next year - the Padres'  24th rated prospect, yet another OF in a system loaded with OFs - 15th rated prospect in Padres' system who projects to be a swing man... If that's the best Stearns could get,  he should have kept Hader and traded him at the end of the season. The return couldn't be much weaker. 

Oh, I don't disagree with you and in no way think this was a good trade.  My response was that the poster only had 2 possible outcomes and I presented a third.

I think it was a horrible deal.  That return is so meh that I really think there was a sell now order from above.  What the reasons for that we can only guess. I really wonder (conspiracy warning) if Attanasio was unhappy with the accommodations the Brewers were making for Hader and when Josh decided that he would skip the All-star game that was the end for Attanasio.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

29 minutes ago, wntrtxn21 said:

A pitcher who Stearns would DFA less than 20 hours later - a struggling relief pitcher who will go gone next year - the Padres'  24th rated prospect, yet another OF in a system loaded with OFs - 15th rated prospect in Padres' system who projects to be a swing man... If that's the best Stearns could get,  he should have kept Hader and traded him at the end of the season. The return couldn't be much weaker. 

Obviously the Brewers front office likes those two prospects much better than you staring at an arbitrary MLB Pipeline prospect list. How about we see how these guys play out a bit before concluding that "the return couldn't be much weaker"? I remember very similar sentiments in the Grisham/Davies for Urias/Lauer swap, and that has turned out quite swimmingly in the other direction.

[NBBrewFan]

23 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Obviously the Brewers front office likes those two prospects much better than you staring at an arbitrary MLB Pipeline prospect list. How about we see how these guys play out a bit before concluding that "the return couldn't be much weaker"? I remember very similar sentiments in the Grisham/Davies for Urias/Lauer swap, and that has turned out quite swimmingly in the other direction.

Does it matter what a few posters said about the Grisham trade in relation to this?  Are they the same ones who are commenting negatively about this trade?  From my fading recollection there's been many more positive Brewer fans commenting negatively about this trade than about the Grisham/Davies trade.  Either way, a specific poster should be held to their history, not the history of others. I don't remember all my logic classes, but I believe the following fails:

Some Brewers fans didn't like the Grisham/Davies trade.

Some Brewers fans don't like the Hader trade.

Since the Grisham trade was a positive for the Brewers, then some Brewers fans should withhold their comments on the Hader trade.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

20 minutes ago, NBBrewFan said:

Does it matter what a few posters said about the Grisham trade in relation to this?  Are they the same ones who are commenting negatively about this trade?  From my fading recollection there's been many more positive Brewer fans commenting negatively about this trade than about the Grisham/Davies trade.  Either way, a specific poster should be held to their history, not the history of others. I don't remember all my logic classes, but I believe the following fails:

Some Brewers fans didn't like the Grisham/Davies trade.

Some Brewers fans don't like the Hader trade.

Since the Grisham trade was a positive for the Brewers, then some Brewers fans should withhold their comments on the Hader trade.

I think the lesson here is simply not to judge a book by its cover.

[NBBrewFan]

2 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

I think the lesson here is simply not to judge a book by its cover.

You're posting on a Brewers fan website where every detail is minutely dissected and that's your pearl of wisdom?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

9 minutes ago, NBBrewFan said:

You're posting on a Brewers fan website where every detail is minutely dissected and that's your pearl of wisdom?

Is suggesting that, perhaps, not declaring a trade an utter failure three days after it happened not based in at least a modicum of wisdom?

[NBBrewFan]

2 minutes ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Is suggesting that, perhaps, not declaring a trade an utter failure three days after it happened not based in at least a modicum of wisdom?

Now straw man arguments?  utter failure? If you see bad and lousy as equivalent to "utter failure" I really don't know what to say.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

1 minute ago, NBBrewFan said:

Now straw man arguments?  utter failure? If you see bad and lousy as equivalent to "utter failure" I really don't know what to say.

Fine ... is suggesting that, perhaps, not declaring a trade bad or lousy three days after it happened not based in at least a modicum of wisdom? I mean, I get that we live in an immediate reactionary society, but sheesh.

[NBBrewFan]

Just now, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Fine ... is suggesting that, perhaps, not declaring a trade bad or lousy three days after it happened not based in at least a modicum of wisdom? I mean, I get that we live in an immediate reactionary society, but sheesh.

Ok. Then delete every post that says it's positive too?  Do you not see any equity?  If people are going to love a trade that we don't see any of the long-term benefits they shouldn't be posting either, which goes back to my previous point of this is a website to dissect the Brewers, Isn't it? If you want it to be the PR wing of the Brewers then maybe Brock can do a deal where Adam McCalvye-esque posts and articles are the only content allowed.  Everyone join us at noon CST/CDT to sing the Brewers fight song.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

4 minutes ago, NBBrewFan said:

Ok. Then delete every post that says it's positive too?  Do you not see any equity?  If people are going to love a trade that we don't see any of the long-term benefits they shouldn't be posting either, which goes back to my previous point of this is a website to dissect the Brewers, Isn't it? If you want it to be the PR wing of the Brewers then maybe Brock can do a deal where Adam McCalvye-esque posts and articles are the only content allowed.  Everyone join us at noon CST/CDT to sing the Brewers fight song.

Yeah, that's a lot of "being crappy to another fan" to unpack there for simply suggesting patience. I'm not even going to try. You win I guess.

[brewers888]

4 hours ago, Ron Robinsons Beard said:

Obviously the Brewers front office likes those two prospects much better than you staring at an arbitrary MLB Pipeline prospect list. How about we see how these guys play out a bit before concluding that "the return couldn't be much weaker"? I remember very similar sentiments in the Grisham/Davies for Urias/Lauer swap, and that has turned out quite swimmingly in the other direction.

No that was not the sentiment on the Urias/Lauer deal because Urias was considered to be a top prospect. The reaction to that trade was far better than this one and rightfully so.

[Brewcrew82]

6 hours ago, NBBrewFan said:

Or, just off the top of my head, to get the best return you need competition bidding for the player.  What other playoff team needed a closer at the Deadline?  Only the Padres? I could be selling a Silver coin worth $50, but if the best offer is $35 I either sit and wait for another offer or I have to make the deal.

You do realize that the Brewers have basically had Hader on the market for a while now and didn't choose to make a deal until now? Which tells me that this was among the better (if not the best) offers they've received in that timeframe. Heck, I remember a couple years ago when Hader had a lot more team control and the best deal we could supposedly get from the Yankees was Andujar and Frazier...The assumption that the Brewers decided to trade Hader on a whim and even then only had the Padres as bidders is quite a leap. I can think of other contenders such as the Yankees and Dodgers who are needing at the closer position and would have been thrilled with Hader.

If you were expecting an Aroldis Chapman-like return for Hader, you were quite mistaken. 

[Brewcrew82]

1 hour ago, brewers888 said:

No that was not the sentiment on the Urias/Lauer deal because Urias was considered to be a top prospect. The reaction to that trade was far better than this one and rightfully so.

But are those lists in themselves not entirely arbitrary and teams may value certain prospects differently than Baseball America or MLB Pipeline? Who's to say the Brewers don't value Ruiz and Gasser in a similar manner to how they valued Urias and Lauer. Also, I remember the reaction to the Grisham deal circa 2020 and it was not all that different from the reaction to this one. 

[Brewcrew82]

4 hours ago, NBBrewFan said:

Ok. Then delete every post that says it's positive too?  Do you not see any equity?  If people are going to love a trade that we don't see any of the long-term benefits they shouldn't be posting either, which goes back to my previous point of this is a website to dissect the Brewers, Isn't it? If you want it to be the PR wing of the Brewers then maybe Brock can do a deal where Adam McCalvye-esque posts and articles are the only content allowed.  Everyone join us at noon CST/CDT to sing the Brewers fight song.

This is quite ridiculous and over the top. Just because someone is encouraging you to let things play out before casting judgment on the Hader trade when we already have an example of how people were overly quick to judge on the Grisham deal doesn't make them part of the PR wing of the Brewers. 

@Brock BeauchampCan we please cut down on posts like this? We're all fans of the same team. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

This is quite ridiculous and over the top. Just because someone is encouraging you to let things play out before casting judgment on the Hader trade when we already have an example of how people were overly quick to judge on the Grisham deal doesn't make them part of the PR wing of the Brewers. 

@Brock BeauchampCan we please stop posts like this? 

 

You can always just ignore him. No need to try to get differing opinions banned on a sport message board...

[Brewcrew82]

Just now, timpep said:

You can always just ignore him. No need to try to get differing opinions banned on a sport message board...

It's not "differing opinions". It's outward ridiculing of another poster. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

It's not "differing opinions". It's outward ridiculing of another poster. 

If the post you quoted was something you find offensive we just live in different worlds, I don't even know what else to say.

A lot of people are bothered when posters criticize moves the Brewers make, the constant attacks on those who view things in a negative light or dislike moves bothers me way more than the "negative nancy's". 

[Brewcrew82]

8 minutes ago, timpep said:

If the post you quoted was something you find offensive we just live in different worlds, I don't even know what else to say.

A lot of people are bothered when posters criticize moves the Brewers make, the constant attacks on those who view things in a negative light or dislike moves bothers me way more than the "negative nancy's". 

There is absolutely no need to accuse someone of being part of the PR wing of the Brewers for encouraging people not to rush to judgment on the Hader trade. It's not respectful and contributes nothing to the discussion.