Packers 2023 Discussion Thread

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, mrn1ceguy said:

I'm not one to rate people because there are stat folks much better at it than me.  But from a familiarity point of view, the whole wide receiver room has reminded me of past Green Bay greats the past few months in terms of play style and (hopefully) production:

Christian Watson - Javon Walker
Romeo Dobbs - James Jones
Malik Heath - Allen Lazaard
Dontayvion Wicks - Donald Driver
Jayden Reed - Greg Jennings
Bo Melton - blank, I got nothing yet but man these have been a good couple games.

 

So if they all keep reminding us of those past greats, they are certainly going to be a fun group.
 

Melton looked SOO much like a young Donald Driver yesterday...

Wicks is bigger and more physical. I'd say he's more similar to Davante with his route running, not having elite speed, but being able to get open, being so good at the point. 

Obviously many levels below Adams, but more similarities there than Melton IMO. Melton has that elite speed. I was screaming for them to pick him when they took Carpenter in the draft two years ago...just had no clue he was a complete receiver. I just thought 7th round, he could be a deep threat, but nothing like this.

[adambr2]

As a frequent Gute critic, I'm marvelling at what an incredible draft he had in 2023. Van Ness is still kind of TBD, but Reed in the 2nd, Kraft in the 3rd, Wicks in the 5th, Karl Brooks in the 6th all look like total homeruns. That's without even mentioning Musgrave and Valentine which probably fall just more into the very good pick category.

Usually takes years to evaluate a draft. Hard not to already say this isn't the best one I've seen in many years. 

[CheezWizHed]

5 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Well, he's not accounting for the carry over...so the Packers are ~32M under the cap just by cutting Bakh.

They'll likely be close to 40M under with a couple of other roster moves. Jones will very likely be asked to take a pay-cut. I'd guess he'll go from 11M base to 6M. But they can get to 40M fairly easily...but the BIG thing is the following year, all the bad deals are off the cap. 

That, the fact that they can easily manipulate the first year of a deal for a guy like Baker and make the cap hit the first year low, they should easily be able to sign anyone they really want this year. Add to that safeties are generally not among the highest paid positions and if they want to, they won't have much trouble.

I think @CheezWizHedsuggested WAY earlier this year when they added void years to Nijman's deal...which I thought to be odd at the time as it'd mean they wouldn't get a supplemental pick for him, that he thought it was because they planned to be active in the FA market. I think that makes even more sense given how the season has gone on.

Baker, Winfield...Dugger, a Safety like that, then you can always add a guy in the draft. 

Or maybe you go another route and you sign Connor Williams, a REALLY good Center from Miami. That's what I've been advocating for, but Josh Myers has really played...pretty damn well as of late. 

Ha! I hardly remember that.  Glad I make more sense long after I say things!

I don't see any bank breaker moves... partially because we don't have huge holes.  But if you have Owens and Johnson, draft a safety, and a FA safety... boom, safety fixed. 

Maybe you go find a K (though I think they stick with Carlson).  Perhaps a G (though more likely Rhyan + a draft pick).  Maybe OLB if Preston is cut?  RB probably needs someone. Honestly, not any huge needs outside of safety. 

Thus, I think they will be active again (especially compared to the last few years), but I don't see any huge signings. 

4 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Melton looked SOO much like a young Donald Driver yesterday...

Wicks is bigger and more physical. I'd say he's more similar to Davante with his route running, not having elite speed, but being able to get open, being so good at the point. 

Obviously many levels below Adams, but more similarities there than Melton IMO. Melton has that elite speed. I was screaming for them to pick him when they took Carpenter in the draft two years ago...just had no clue he was a complete receiver. I just thought 7th round, he could be a deep threat, but nothing like this.

Melton popping in has been shocking.  Just busted on the scene suddenly.  I'm not big on the DD comp.  The 80 on the jersey is there, but he doesn't even look like the 5'11" he is listed at.  Plus, he is much faster than DD. 

Wick left the CB in the dust on (I think ?) the second TD.  Right off the line, he just broke the CB ankles (to use a BB term).  It was so sweet! 

[CheezWizHed]

6 minutes ago, adambr2 said:

As a frequent Gute critic, I'm marvelling at what an incredible draft he had in 2023. Van Ness is still kind of TBD, but Reed in the 2nd, Kraft in the 3rd, Wicks in the 5th, Karl Brooks in the 6th all look like total homeruns. That's without even mentioning Musgrave and Valentine which probably fall just more into the very good pick category.

Usually takes years to evaluate a draft. Hard not to already say this isn't the best one I've seen in many years. 

I think I'm at HR with Valentine and Musgrave too... V just looks a lot of Jaire out there.  Musgrave was blowing up when he got hurt - giving Kraft much more opportunity.  Yeah, this draft (and UDFAs and waiver pickups) have been just really, really good this year. 

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

Ha! I hardly remember that.  Glad I make more sense long after I say things!

I don't see any bank breaker moves... partially because we don't have huge holes.  But if you have Owens and Johnson, draft a safety, and a FA safety... boom, safety fixed. 

Maybe you go find a K (though I think they stick with Carlson).  Perhaps a G (though more likely Rhyan + a draft pick).  Maybe OLB if Preston is cut?  RB probably needs someone. Honestly, not any huge needs outside of safety. 

Thus, I think they will be active again (especially compared to the last few years), but I don't see any huge signings. 

LOL...every once in a while.

I think they could go and sign Baker or Winfield without breaking the bank and they each bring just a ton of leadership and playmaking ability to the secondary. Maybe one gets 5 years and 75M, but I think that'd be a good, worthwhile investment. Of course, they'd have to want to play here and AZ has a pretty bright future, but Budda went to Washington, he's a stud and he is one of the tough guys in the league. He's also coming off probably his worst year, so that may dull the interst in him. Other options could be cheaper, but depending on what we do at DC, may also be good fits. 

A lot of big, physical options beyond those two. Jeremy Chinn could be a nice SS with the players around him. I'm also just excited to see what a new DC can do with Quay Walker, but that's another topic.

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

Melton popping in has been shocking.  Just busted on the scene suddenly.  I'm not big on the DD comp.  The 80 on the jersey is there, but he doesn't even look like the 5'11" he is listed at.  Plus, he is much faster than DD. 

Wick left the CB in the dust on (I think ?) the second TD.  Right off the line, he just broke the CB ankles (to use a BB term).  It was so sweet! 

He's faster than DD, but he's playing so physical and tough. That's where I see the Driver. Driver was a smaller WRer who played physically. I'm not saying he's Driver, but the last couple weeks...I thought he played a lot like he did. The fighting for extra yards after the catch or just going up, finding the soft spot in the zone, and absorbing the hit, but coming down with the ball. 

Again, I wanted him two years ago(when the 7th rd came around, I wasn't clamoring him before the draft), but I really pictured more of a one-trick pony. Maybe he'll end up a flash in the pan, but he's doing what the Packers' FO and everyone made it sound like Toure would do. I wouldn't mind seeing him used in some jet sweep action or WRer screens this week. 

 

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

I think I'm at HR with Valentine and Musgrave too... V just looks a lot of Jaire out there.  Musgrave was blowing up when he got hurt - giving Kraft much more opportunity.  Yeah, this draft (and UDFAs and waiver pickups) have been just really, really good this year. 

When you consider where they were drafted, Valentine is a Grand Slam. A cover corner like him in the 7th? It's all relative, and maybe we should temper our excitement given how good Stokes looked as a rookie, but Valentine has that edge to him...and he's athletic. I don't get how he fell to the 7th rd. 

Musgrave was the 42nd pick, so you expect him to be a really good TE. I'm not sure how he's going to hold up playing the way he does, but if he can, he's going to be a huge threat and it'll open up the Packers playbook. So many options when you have a TE as fluid as Musgrave and then another like Kraft who's more physical. They're nearly identical in terms of their RAS scores, but it shows up in a much different manner. Kraft is more of a hammer and Musgrave is more of an elusive down-the-seem type TE. 

 

I'd say the last TWO drafts have been great though. 

Walker-He's a budding Superstar IMO. Just get a DC who'll let him loose a bit. 
Wyatt-He's been breaking out.
Watson-Just a healthy hamstring from putting up a monster season.
Rhyan-Still a ??
Doubs-At the least a very nice complimentary WRer. 
Tom-Franchise OT...you happily spend a top 10 pick to get a guy who's played like Tom has. The most unsung hero on this team.
Engagbare-He's a damn good rotational Edge. 
Walker-Again, as a 7th rd pick, you can't ask for more. I think he'll have a long career. I do think we need to upgrade the LT position, but a nice player to rotate or kick inside to Guard.

Also picked up Melton last year. That looks like a great signing from the Seahawks PS(or he may have even been dropped and the Packers signed him off the PS).

Luke Tenuta, Caleb Jones, both suffered injuries, but both have potential. 

Ford is probably a guy who's replaced, Carpenter was a bust, Toure looks like a miss. But you got 6 guys who've started and 2-3 more really nice rotational pieces and THEN come back with a better draft this year? That's huge. 

 

 

Come back with this class?

-Future starting OLB
-2 REALLY good looking starting TEs.
-2 good WRers who have had significant impacts on the team.
-2 DL who've hit been really good rotational players. 
-Clifford looks like the real deal as a backup QB(not a small thing).
-K...Carlson has missed some PATs, but for a rookie?
-Valentine, already proving he can be a starting boundary CB. Declining the option on Stokes was probably an easy call, but he's helped the CB position from not dropping off.
-Johnson has been a nice backup Safety.

-UDFA/Waiver Wire Rookies
-Malik Heath looks like another hit in that regard.
-Emanuel Wilson is a guy I still believe can be a legit #2 option next year taking over for Dillon
-Wheelan...he's been alright. 
-Ben Sims has come in and done a nice job as a blocking TE

**Grant Dubose was a guy who came in and was a big, strong WR, with big hands. Wouldn't write him off yet, but an uphill battle.

 

You add all that when you're losing a WHOLE lot of vets and MOST importantly, you know you have your answer at QB in Love, you have 5 picks in the top ~90 AND your salary cap is going to be clean after this season?

We've also got the luxury of not having any absolute MUST-have positions...though I'd still say the OL and OT are the priority, then safety, then it's just depth. 

 

Guteknust should be executive of the year. Just getting out of the Rodgers deal and Love panning out, but then all of this? He won't win, but he absolutely should. 

[CheezWizHed]

Can't overlook how almost ALL of the young TEs and WRs have really grown and developed over the last year or two.  Props to the coaches that have been getting them ready every week and helping them grow. 

[kestrel79]

If we draft well this spring look out, this young team will be good and cap friendly for a long time. Very exciting!

[Fear The Chorizo]

43 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

Can't overlook how almost ALL of the young TEs and WRs have really grown and developed over the last year or two.  Props to the coaches that have been getting them ready every week and helping them grow. 

From where they were mid-season, when often 2-3 receivers wound up within a few yards of each other because they wound up running the same routes and the offense looked completely confused, the receiving corps really has taken a quantum leap forward....great to see!

[homer]

Kind of nuts that Nacua went after Wicks. 

[CheezWizHed]

1 hour ago, homer said:

Kind of nuts that Nacua went after Wicks. 

I was thinking about this on Sunday after watching him set the record for a rookie... what would've happen if we drafted Nacua instead of Wicks?  

Would Nacua still have broken the record?  How much of it is the Stafford-Nacua connection?  Would Wicks have done anything close if LA drafted him?  

Not that I think Wicks and Nacua are equally talented.  Just wondering how much of it is talent vs circumstances. 

[homer]

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

I was thinking about this on Sunday after watching him set the record for a rookie... what would've happen if we drafted Nacua instead of Wicks?  

Would Nacua still have broken the record?  How much of it is the Stafford-Nacua connection?  Would Wicks have done anything close if LA drafted him?  

Not that I think Wicks and Nacua are equally talented.  Just wondering how much of it is talent vs circumstances. 

I don't think there's a chance he breaks the record. He was the only receiver they had for the first month. I think he had 500 yards receiving the first four weeks.

[BrewerFan]

3 hours ago, kestrel79 said:

If we draft well this spring look out, this young team will be good and cap friendly for a long time. Very exciting!

24 picks the last two years PLUS more than a couple UDFAs who've made the roster...the number of contributors is incredible.  

I think this next year we'll see them make a lot of selections with the 3 supplemental picks, but they may be more aggressive. Move up for players they want rather than moving down. It'll be interesting to see how they approach this draft, this off-season.

 

[BrewerFan]

1 hour ago, homer said:

I don't think there's a chance he breaks the record. He was the only receiver they had for the first month. I think he had 500 yards receiving the first four weeks.

It's not like we had 5 guys who were go-to guys early in the season. Plus, when he's clearly the guy and he goes into SF and gets 20 targets and has 15 catches for 150 yards and 8 first downs, it's pretty clear it's not JUST because he's the only guy. Tutu Atwell was also productive early on(a little more gadget guy who was a 2nd rd pick a couple years ago). But I think the way he performed, he's clearly pretty legit.

I think it's likely he'd have had a huge year had the Packers taken him. Maybe not the season he had in LA, but 1000 yards and 80 catches?

He's just a guy that went under the radar, but I think he's a stud and it's more due to his ability than circumstances. 

It's alright though. I love the guys we've got. 3rd down and Wicks is real nice receiver in the 5th rd. 

[homer]

38 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

It's not like we had 5 guys who were go-to guys early in the season. Plus, when he's clearly the guy and he goes into SF and gets 20 targets and has 15 catches for 150 yards and 8 first downs, it's pretty clear it's not JUST because he's the only guy. Tutu Atwell was also productive early on(a little more gadget guy who was a 2nd rd pick a couple years ago). But I think the way he performed, he's clearly pretty legit.

I think it's likely he'd have had a huge year had the Packers taken him. Maybe not the season he had in LA, but 1000 yards and 80 catches?

He's just a guy that went under the radar, but I think he's a stud and it's more due to his ability than circumstances. 

It's alright though. I love the guys we've got. 3rd down and Wicks is real nice receiver in the 5th rd. 

Yeah he could have had a 1000 yards. But that's well short of the record which is what I was responding to.

[OldHeidelberg]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1744499538050572607

 

[BrewerFan]

1 minute ago, OldHeidelberg said:

 

There needs to be a Madden "BOOM," Gif...I love how Walker plays with an edge like that. And it's hilarious to watch the OL like "dude..."

It's criminal he's not utilized better. He's got a chance to be an AP. 

[BrewerFan]

 

[homer]

I don't even have to watch that Criminal video and I already love it.

[CheezWizHed]

13 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

There needs to be a Madden "BOOM," Gif...I love how Walker plays with an edge like that. And it's hilarious to watch the OL like "dude..."

It's criminal he's not utilized better. He's got a chance to be an AP. 

To be fair, Walker used to get swallowed up by OL, so this is really nice to see.  Hopefully, he has learned how to chase the ballcarrier while keeping an eye on the OLs to avoid them. 

And I have to give JB props... the use of Walker as a spy/5th rusher was a game changer.  He rushes very well from the MLB position and Fields had no where to run (when was the last time we have been able to say that about a Packer defense playing against a mobile QB??)

[BrewerFan]

1 minute ago, homer said:

I don't even have to watch that Criminal video and I already love it.

LOL...it's just so much sweeter after EVERYTHING we heard all off-season about how the Packers were going back to the 80s era, how we'd fall way off...

I don't know how the hell Bears fans do it. 30 years of franchise QBs and then we went about 8 weeks not knowing if we had our QB of the future! The Bears fans have been going through this since the Germans were marching through Europe! 

 

Sid...Luckman! 

[CheezWizHed]

45 minutes ago, BrewerFan said:

 

Ok, I didn't intend to watch a 20 min youtube video, but that was pretty delicious.  Skip the commercial for whatever food sponsor he has, but otherwise pretty funny.

[BrewerFan]

1 minute ago, CheezWizHed said:

To be fair, Walker used to get swallowed up by OL, so this is really nice to see.  Hopefully, he has learned how to chase the ballcarrier while keeping an eye on the OLs to avoid them. 

And I have to give JB props... the use of Walker as a spy/5th rusher was a game changer.  He rushes very well from the MLB position and Fields had no where to run (when was the last time we have been able to say that about a Packer defense playing against a mobile QB??)

Yeah, he'd get caught up in the wash a bit, but I tend to believe that's more the result of the DL play. With this DL playing well, you see McDuffie, Campbell, and Quay all have free lanes, the OL isn't getting to the next level as easily or as quickly. 

Kenny Clark has been outstanding...in the base or the nickel(they've been stopping the run out of the nickel well enough also). Slaton has been good, and Wyatt has really improved. 

 

Hard for me to give Barry props for doing something that was...pretty basic. You have a guy like Fields, the Browns had 2 spies on him at times. I DO begrudgingly give him credit for doing something other than just a delayed blitz from Walker into the B gap...one that was so predictable and that they'd been using over and over. 

[BrewerFan]

14 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

Ok, I didn't intend to watch a 20 min youtube video, but that was pretty delicious.  Skip the commercial for whatever food sponsor he has, but otherwise pretty funny.

Same here. Time just flies when they're talking about your franchise QB that everyone's just trashed for the last 4 years!

[CheezWizHed]

1 hour ago, BrewerFan said:

Same here. Time just flies when they're talking about your franchise QB that everyone's just trashed for the last 4 years!

The Jet's version of "How do they keep getting away with it?" with Favre/Rodgers made me LOL.