Packers 2023 Discussion Thread

[OldHeidelberg]

538 is no longer around and that had a nice tool where you could give the Packers wins the rest of the way and see what their playoffs odds are. Does anyone know of a different site that does that now? ESPN has one but it doesn't seem to do the probability part unless I am missing it. 

 

[Sixtolezcano]

39 minutes ago, homer said:

MLF is probably best suited to be an OC and I think he'd be a really good one if that's where his entire focus was.

I believe Joe Barry is best suited purchasing a ticket and sitting on the top row of Bank of America Stadium in Charlotte, NC . Too bad we’re not lucky enough to see him there on Christmas Eve.

[HarryDoyle]

Looks like Campbell wants to join Alexander in Operation Shutdown.

 

[Underachiever]

4 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

Looks like Campbell wants to join Alexander in Operation Shutdown.

 

wow. That's really bad, isn't it? I'm not always the best at interpreting tweets.

[OldHeidelberg]

40 minutes ago, Underachiever said:

wow. That's really bad, isn't it? I'm not always the best at interpreting tweets.

It may shed some light on the Jaire situation, he had a bad game or 2 coming back from the back issue earlier in the season. I think most of us suspected that he had issues with somebody, could be either MLF or Barry.

[CheezWizHed]

2 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I don't trust the structure anymore. Everyone is blaming MLF. Maybe rightly so, maybe it's not his call because it hasn't been his call at times in the past(as I mentioned, extra year of Pettine, Rizzi, Drayton pushed on him, all things Coordinator decisions he seemingly had little say over). 

Is it Murphy? When that idiot opened his mouth talking about how they'll bring Rodgers back if things don't work out how they want them to(or however he worded it) well before the trade was completed, seemingly giving the Jets some control, it was more confirmation he's taking a heavier hand in the Football operations. That's NOT how Harlan turned this ship around or how he ran things under McCarthy. 

 

I trust the player evaluation process right now...mostly. MLF is a good offensive coach(IMO). There are some questions about the rest of the leadership. Gutekunst is the one guy who's gone from really hated to having a little more respect among fans. He's dating pretty well, but there seems to be some dysfunction at the top. 

What indication has there been that this is anything but MLF's call?  Were MLF, Gute, and perhaps Murphy all involved in their hiring? And would there be a discussion about the firing?  Probably both yes.  But I'm guessing the lion share of responsibility is on MLF. Firing is never easy (I've managed people for 15+ years), but I don't see anything here that wouldn't provide ample reason for NFL process. 

The only positive I see is that Joe Barry's contract is up at the end of the season. 

58 minutes ago, HarryDoyle said:

Looks like Campbell wants to join Alexander in Operation Shutdown.

 

I'm not sure if this is regarding the DC or just people talking.  If it Joe Barry, players quitting on him is certainly a reason why you fire him now and not wait.  If Jaire is doing the same thing, I appreciate him just being quiet about it instead of mouthing off like this.

If Campbell is lipping off about the media complaints... well get some thicker skin.  You'd never play if you didn't play through injury because you are always injured. 

[HarryDoyle]

I wouldn’t be shocked at all if not wanting to play for Barry anymore was the underlying reason to pack it in. I don’t see why any player would want to play in that horrible system. Players want to play physical and not drop back in deep coverage 80% of the time.

[Samurai Bucky]

21 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

You know the situation is dire whenever The Onion goes out of their way to put Barry and the defense on blast. The sports editor there must be a Packer fan.

If Barry isn't gone after this year, then he must have risqué pictures of LeFleur or Murphy.

[Sixtolezcano]

Apparently MLF hasn’t only ignored the Barry situation, but his handling of Jaire Alexander could also be a failure. I think these 2 issues (which we are aware of; possibly more that we haven’t heard of) also appear to affect his players morale. The Alexander situation has been very confounding since Jaire’s comments on his playing situation last week. His practice/game availability hasn’t been made very clear and certainly are unique. It appears that Alexander has set his own recovery time and MLF doesn’t appear to have much say in his decision, from Campbell’s comments today. Does the inmate control the asylum? It makes me wonder if the trade of outspoken Rasul Douglass had something to do with MLF attempting to take back control of the clubhouse. These possibilities might be worth considering. Maybe it might be time to reconsider MLF’s employment status here.

[adambr2]

The worst part about the Barry hire is that it was a predictable disaster from the get-go for everyone other than Matt Lafleur. 

Like to contrast. . Brandon Staley just got fired, and he deserved to get fired ...but I GET that hire. The Chargers thought they were getting an up and coming brilliant defensive mind. Just didn't work out and so you move on. 

But with Barry...NOTHING about this move ever looked good. It wasn't just a disaster. It was a predictable, avoidable one. 

[BrewerFan]

On 12/19/2023 at 10:31 AM, CheezWizHed said:

What indication has there been that this is anything but MLF's call?  Were MLF, Gute, and perhaps Murphy all involved in their hiring? And would there be a discussion about the firing?  Probably both yes.  But I'm guessing the lion share of responsibility is on MLF. Firing is never easy (I've managed people for 15+ years), but I don't see anything here that wouldn't provide ample reason for NFL process. 

The only positive I see is that Joe Barry's contract is up at the end of the season. 

The examples I gave. That he wanted to fire Pettine and he was convinced to keep him an extra year, the fact that he wanted to give Rizzi the job and they low-balled him, and then the fact that he was pressured to hire Drayton.

That Murphy got involved in the process AT-ALL is a problem that dates back several years. 

And yes, firing people is not fun. It never is and I get that. But it needs to be done. 

On 12/19/2023 at 10:31 AM, CheezWizHed said:

I'm not sure if this is regarding the DC or just people talking.  If it Joe Barry, players quitting on him is certainly a reason why you fire him now and not wait.  If Jaire is doing the same thing, I appreciate him just being quiet about it instead of mouthing off like this.

If Campbell is lipping off about the media complaints... well get some thicker skin.  You'd never play if you didn't play through injury because you are always injured. 

This was surprising, but I really doubt this is about fan criticism. This sounds like it's coming from in the locker room. 

I'd thought it really didn't matter if they made the move in-season or next season, but they need to make it now. 

[BrewerFan]

20 hours ago, adambr2 said:

The worst part about the Barry hire is that it was a predictable disaster from the get-go for everyone other than Matt Lafleur. 

Like to contrast. . Brandon Staley just got fired, and he deserved to get fired ...but I GET that hire. The Chargers thought they were getting an up and coming brilliant defensive mind. Just didn't work out and so you move on. 

But with Barry...NOTHING about this move ever looked good. It wasn't just a disaster. It was a predictable, avoidable one. 

Yeah, it was a let down. Leonhard turned down the job, then it was between two coaches, one who'd never been a DC, one who was an up-and-coming coach.

I tried to be optimistic as Preston Smith was probably one of the 2-3 best players Barry had in Washington or Det, but he'd failed as a DC.

It really feels like MLF talks to Barry every year, he adjusts a little bit, they play better and then he just goes back to nickel playing Quarters or as it was last week, some SOFT ass cover 6 on 3rd and 4. 

[BrewerFan]

On 12/19/2023 at 5:55 PM, Sixtolezcano said:

Apparently MLF hasn’t only ignored the Barry situation, but his handling of Jaire Alexander could also be a failure. I think these 2 issues (which we are aware of; possibly more that we haven’t heard of) also appear to affect his players morale. The Alexander situation has been very confounding since Jaire’s comments on his playing situation last week. His practice/game availability hasn’t been made very clear and certainly are unique. It appears that Alexander has set his own recovery time and MLF doesn’t appear to have much say in his decision, from Campbell’s comments today. Does the inmate control the asylum? It makes me wonder if the trade of outspoken Rasul Douglass had something to do with MLF attempting to take back control of the clubhouse. These possibilities might be worth considering. Maybe it might be time to reconsider MLF’s employment status here.

I really like MLF, think he's a good coach for Love, the offense...but IF he's lost the locker room, even if it's just because of Barry, then you may be right. 

There's so little information available beyond the obvious fact that players are not happy, it's hard to tell.

How badly hurt IS Jaire? Two years ago he had that broken shoulder and we kept hoping he'd be back, it played out like this and he was back part-time vs SF and not able to tackle Deebo. I think we'll again find out after this season what the injury was and have a better idea.

I'd like to hear what Kenny Clark thinks. He's a professional, never had ANY attitude issues and he's the most veteran leader on the team. This cannot be allowed to snowball. Players can't talk about not playing banged up because of coaching remarks and coaches need to be smart enough to have the pulse of the locker room. 

And as much as I like Jim Leonhard, if a guy like Saleh(he won't) becomes available, it may be a good idea to get a former HC in there. Zimmer perhaps...

I'd love to see Al Harris brought back to GB as the DBs coach/passing game coordinator. Not sure that's a good enough promotion, but spend the money. What the hell else do the Packers have to do with it? 

I don't know how good of a coach Stenovich is since he doesn't call plays(the OL has improved as the season has gone on).

 

There are a lot of things to be excited about with this team. Love, the young talent on both sides who've played well individually. We're close personnel-wise. Just young players growing, a LT, Safety...but with a team this young, leadership is as important as anything. 

[adambr2]

I guess if there's any silver lining, it's that Barry's contract is expiring, so basically zero chance of them not moving on. Shouldn't have even needed to come to that, but they can basically just "move on" without firing him. 

As loyal as MLF has been to him, even he has to understand that it would be utter career suicide to give him a contract extension. 

[yourout]

2 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

Yeah, it was a let down. Leonhard turned down the job, then it was between two coaches, one who'd never been a DC, one who was an up-and-coming coach.

I tried to be optimistic as Preston Smith was probably one of the 2-3 best players Barry had in Washington or Det, but he'd failed as a DC.

It really feels like MLF talks to Barry every year, he adjusts a little bit, they play better and then he just goes back to nickel playing Quarters or as it was last week, some SOFT ass cover 6 on 3rd and 4. 

Not canning him after last season was a colossal mistake after knowing the players were not happy.

[BrewerFan]

45 minutes ago, yourout said:

Not canning him after last season was a colossal mistake after knowing the players were not happy.

I may have missed it, but did players articulate their frustrations with Barry last year?

I agree it was a mistake. I wouldn't have said colossal because I didn't think they had much of a chance to do anything this year(make the playoffs, but get spanked by a good team). 

But if that's the case, it's even worse.

1 hour ago, adambr2 said:

As loyal as MLF has been to him, even he has to understand that it would be utter career suicide to give him a contract extension. 

I had a hard time finding this, but I'm telling you, I don't think MLF has the autonomy people believe he does. 

 

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/05/09/silverstein-critics-see-cracks-green-bay-packers-new-management-structure/1142267001/#:~:text=He was supposed to have,decision-maker%2C sources said.

1 hour ago, adambr2 said:

I guess if there's any silver lining, it's that Barry's contract is expiring, so basically zero chance of them not moving on. Shouldn't have even needed to come to that, but they can basically just "move on" without firing him. 

We get FAR more from the NFL every year on the 1st day of the league year than we spend on players salaries(except for when we go nuts with these giant signing bonuses and even then I don't think we've spent more on players salaries+signing bonuses than their National TV Share).

So the thought that we low-balled one of the best STC in the NFL the year before the 49ers debacle(that whole season really) or that keeping Pettine or Barry may be due to not wanting to pay 2 Coordinators...it's infuriating.

And then there was Drayton. Did he get the job because he earned it...while coaching under the terrible Special Team Coordinators, or because he was on staff and cheap?

 

I'm not saying I know, I'm just saying Murphy taking a larger role and sticking his nose into the hiring decisions other than GM...it's not good for the franchise. 

[thebruce44]

22 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

I may have missed it, but did players articulate their frustrations with Barry last year?

 

A couple things off the top of my head.

I remember a couple players making comments about the wrong call on that end of the half TD to TB 2 years ago.

I seem to remember some of the vets approaching him last year to explain that they wanted to play more man and press as the scheme was not working. Barry listened, but the fact that his players had to ask him to change the scheme is telling.

[HarryDoyle]

9 hours ago, thebruce44 said:

A couple things off the top of my head.

I remember a couple players making comments about the wrong call on that end of the half TD to TB 2 years ago.

I seem to remember some of the vets approaching him last year to explain that they wanted to play more man and press as the scheme was not working. Barry listened, but the fact that his players had to ask him to change the scheme is telling.

Wasn't that in the NFCCG in 2020? That was Pettine at the time.

[yourout]

5 hours ago, HarryDoyle said:

Wasn't that in the NFCCG in 2020? That was Pettine at the time.

After the first Vikings game last year there were some unhappy campers with all the soft zone and unwillingness to put Jaire on Jefferson.

 

[nate82]

Just now, yourout said:

After the first Vikings game last year there were some unhappy campers with all the soft zone and unwillingness to put Jaire on Jefferson.

 

If I remembering this correctly this has more to do with modern NFL defenses than with any defensive coordinator.  I believe every DC now has a CB just locking down a side instead of having your best CB on the other team’s best WR.

No more Deion Sanders taking on Jerry Rice matchups.  I fully believe the NFL has gotten worse because of this.  Defensively it is probably better but I have no idea if it actually is.  I prefer the stud CB vs stud WR.  It made the game more entertaining and worth the watch even if the game was a snooze fest.

[yourout]

3 minutes ago, nate82 said:

If I remembering this correctly this has more to do with modern NFL defenses than with any defensive coordinator.  I believe every DC now has a CB just locking down a side instead of having your best CB on the other team’s best WR.

No more Deion Sanders taking on Jerry Rice matchups.  I fully believe the NFL has gotten worse because of this.  Defensively it is probably better but I have no idea if it actually is.  I prefer the stud CB vs stud WR.  It made the game more entertaining and worth the watch even if the game was a snooze fest.

Not sure what the rationale was for how they defended that first game but it was a catastrophe with Jefferson running through them with zero resistance.

When they went man to man and started jamming guys in the second game it was far more effective. And if I remember correctly jair did a pretty decent job of limiting Jefferson's damage.

[CheezWizHed]

6 hours ago, yourout said:

Not sure what the rationale was for how they defended that first game but it was a catastrophe with Jefferson running through them with zero resistance.

When they went man to man and started jamming guys in the second game it was far more effective. And if I remember correctly jair did a pretty decent job of limiting Jefferson's damage.

My memory is the same.  Jaire was highly critical that he wasn't following JJ.  In fact... I remember pseudo-defending Barry at the time stating that it wasn't that easy with his defense.. then he did it a game or two later with Jaire.

[BrewerFan]

7 hours ago, nate82 said:

If I remembering this correctly this has more to do with modern NFL defenses than with any defensive coordinator.  I believe every DC now has a CB just locking down a side instead of having your best CB on the other team’s best WR.

No more Deion Sanders taking on Jerry Rice matchups.  I fully believe the NFL has gotten worse because of this.  Defensively it is probably better but I have no idea if it actually is.  I prefer the stud CB vs stud WR.  It made the game more entertaining and worth the watch even if the game was a snooze fest.

Well...not really. That's the Vic Fangio D. It got more popular, but it's QUICKLY dying off as those schemes have like 7 of the 10 worst defenses.

We had Jaire travel with Jefferson the 2nd game...and while you're never going to match a guy up every play and you'l have help, he was on Jefferson nearly every play.

Other teams still do this, but it's teams with aggressive DCs who play man heavy schemes. 

 

But the more popular, "drop 7, let my front 4 get home/keep it in front of us," Cover 3, Quarters, those CBs don't travel. And it does make the game worse.

[BrewerFan]

7 hours ago, yourout said:

Not sure what the rationale was for how they defended that first game but it was a catastrophe with Jefferson running through them with zero resistance.

Joe Barry just sticking to his bland D.

1 hour ago, CheezWizHed said:

My memory is the same.  Jaire was highly critical that he wasn't following JJ.  In fact... I remember pseudo-defending Barry at the time stating that it wasn't that easy with his defense.. then he did it a game or two later with Jaire.

My memory isn't the same on that. I recall Jaire saying something, but I don't recall it being a subtle or not so subtle shot at Barry...

But that's just worse. This has been growing for years then. 

There is someone in that defensive room who knows what the hell they're doing. You saw it with the scheme to beat Minny last year the 2nd time. You saw it with those fronts with the 3 DL, LVN with his hand in the dirt and then Gary/Smith or whoever lined up as an Edge with Quay lined up inside him and playing press vs Det. Good scheme vs KC.

And despite those successes we invariably revert back to this conservative cloud type D. 

[CheezWizHed]

18 hours ago, BrewerFan said:

JMy memory isn't the same on that. I recall Jaire saying something, but I don't recall it being a subtle or not so subtle shot at Barry...

https://fansided.com/2022/09/12/packers-jaire-alexander-justin-jefferson-ignored/

Jaire Alexander to me and @RobDemovsky postgame on coaches not having him shadow Justin Jefferson: "All week, (I was) asking for that matchup. But it ain't about me. It's about the team. It ain't about me. If it was my way, you know what I would be doing."

When is Jaire ever subtle?  😂