Oakland Athletics to Las Vegas

[Jopal78]

7 hours ago, torts said:

Vegas is unlike any other market because it is solely a destination city.  It's industry is tourism.  Every visiting team will have fans travel to Vegas, it's one of the easiest markets to fly in to from most major markets.  The "size" of the market is almost irrelevant because it's top 5 in most visited metro areas.

The median high in July is also 104. Most likely, folks are going to stay in the air conditioned cool casinos and gamble than go out to a game (unless the stadium is part of a casino).

Further, it’d be some domed stadium to cool it inside 30 degrees more than outside with the desert sun pounding down on it all day.  Probably a dumb idea to move there but that’s seemingly all baseball owners ever have .

[torts]

9 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

The median high in July is also 104. Most likely, folks are going to stay in the air conditioned cool casinos and gamble than go out to a game (unless the stadium is part of a casino).

Further, it’d be some domed stadium to cool it inside 30 degrees more than outside with the desert sun pounding down on it all day.  Probably a dumb idea to move there but that’s seemingly all baseball owners ever have .

and yet... their MiLB team led the PCL last year in average attendance over 75 games (just 2,500 less than what the A's drew on average in 2022).  Probably because baseball games are in the evening when its not 104 degrees outside.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

20 hours ago, nate82 said:

I am going to assume it will be somewhere not in WI.  I don't see Madison as an even slight chance.  Probably just move Biloxi from AA to AAA and then find another AA site for the Brewers.  The Biloxi stadium is rather new yet and I believe fits into the AAA standard for a stadium.

CHS Field where the Saints play didn't meet the qualifications for a AAA stadium. It was pretty new but needed more seating, I believe. That didn't seem to be a problem, as the Twins and Saints agreed to expand the stadium but I'm pretty sure for the first year or two, it technically didn't meet the standards of a AAA stadium.

The Brewers could easily do the same thing in Biloxi.

[MrTPlush]

21 hours ago, wiguy94 said:

Praying we get Madison!

Considering the Brewers talk about the importance of attendance to the bottom line...I am guessing the odds they want their AAA team in Madison is somewhere close to 0%.

I would be willing to bet the Nashville Sounds would stay right where they are. I am guessing a large part of the AAA team staying in Las Vegas is the fact they have a nearly brand new stadium they just built. I suppose the Sounds stadium might be considered old enough by the time a team would move there in the 2030's...but I am not so sure. 

[homer]

10 hours ago, Jopal78 said:

The median high in July is also 104. Most likely, folks are going to stay in the air conditioned cool casinos and gamble than go out to a game (unless the stadium is part of a casino).

Further, it’d be some domed stadium to cool it inside 30 degrees more than outside with the desert sun pounding down on it all day.  Probably a dumb idea to move there but that’s seemingly all baseball owners ever have .

I think a bigger drawback for MLB is the size of the Vegas TV market. It's smaller than Milwaukee.

https://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets

Surprisingly, it's also smaller than Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo/Battle Creek

[wiguy94]

19 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

Considering the Brewers talk about the importance of attendance to the bottom line...I am guessing the odds they want their AAA team in Madison is somewhere close to 0%.

I would be willing to bet the Nashville Sounds would stay right where they are. I am guessing a large part of the AAA team staying in Las Vegas is the fact they have a nearly brand new stadium they just built. I suppose the Sounds stadium might be considered old enough by the time a team would move there in the 2030's...but I am not so sure. 

The Madison Mallards average like 6000 fans per game as a Northwoods League team which is 1600 less than Nashville did. If you don’t think Madison could put up those numbers with a Brewers AAA affiliate then I don’t know what you’re smoking. 

[OldSchoolSnapper]

19 hours ago, torts said:

Vegas is unlike any other market because it is solely a destination city.  It's industry is tourism.  Every visiting team will have fans travel to Vegas, it's one of the easiest markets to fly in to from most major markets.  The "size" of the market is almost irrelevant because it's top 5 in most visited metro areas.

This is far less true than it was pretty recently. They have seen a considerable boom in the permanent metro area population. LCOL, jobs, and retirees seeking the tax shelter.

It is also just a really nice area with a lot going on, miles away from the strip - even if hotter than hell.

[MrTPlush]

8 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

The Madison Mallards average like 6000 fans per game as a Northwoods League team which is 1600 less than Nashville did. If you don’t think Madison could put up those numbers with a Brewers AAA affiliate then I don’t know what you’re smoking. 

#1 I don't smoke.

#2 My comment had literally nothing to do with the Mallards attendance or their ability to attract enough fans. The Brewers don't own the Mallards, my reference was to the Brewers attendance. The Brewers don't benefit from the Mallards turning into the AAA team. If they owned the AAA, maybe they wouldn't care as much, but they don't have any financial interest in the Sounds. 

Also, the Mallards schedule consists of 58 games and only 28 home games. All of those games take place in the summer when school is out and the weather is warm. Double the amount of games you have to convince people to come out to and play during April/mid August+...that will plummet overall attendance averages. Also, while Mallards are fairly expensive for summer ball (I think), it is much much cheaper than AAA baseball is. Average Nashville Sounds game is about $45. You can get all you can eat food and beer for that price at a Mallards game. Minimum price for a Mallards game is $6, Nashville appears to be about $15. 

There are probably better locations to shift the AAA team to. I am sure the Mallards could still easily average 3k+, which is what a lot of teams pull in. At face value it could work on the Sounds side, but I just don't see the Brewers going for it themselves.

On another note, to those pondering AA Biloxi flipping to AAA...I doubt it. They consistently flirt with the worst attendance in AA. If we were going to flip the AAA team to a current affiliate, it would be Wisconsin. They drew 50% more than Biloxi last year and actually cracked 3k average. With a AAA team in Indiana/Iowa/Minnesota it wouldn't be farfetched geographically. I don't think it would happen, but if you were picking a current affiliate, it is the only logical one in my opinion. 

 

 

[edfunderburk]

2 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

CHS Field where the Saints play didn't meet the qualifications for a AAA stadium. It was pretty new but needed more seating, I believe. That didn't seem to be a problem, as the Twins and Saints agreed to expand the stadium but I'm pretty sure for the first year or two, it technically didn't meet the standards of a AAA stadium.

The Brewers could easily do the same thing in Biloxi.

I hope Biloxi stays in AA & the Brewers find a city closer to Milwaukee for AAA.

Not sure where …

Madison would be ideal, but I’ve never heard mention of a team there & I’m also not aware of an existing stadium there. 

[edfunderburk]

1 hour ago, wiguy94 said:

The Madison Mallards average like 6000 fans per game as a Northwoods League team which is 1600 less than Nashville did. If you don’t think Madison could put up those numbers with a Brewers AAA affiliate then I don’t know what you’re smoking. 

This is actually great news - I was unaware of the Mallards

[jerichoholicninja]

I hope they keep their minor league team out of the midwest. The weather here sucks for the first month of the season. There's no reason to make your players try to play in sub 40 degree temperatures and snow. I feel the same for major leaguers too.

[edfunderburk]

2 hours ago, MrTPlush said:

Considering the Brewers talk about the importance of attendance to the bottom line...I am guessing the odds they want their AAA team in Madison is somewhere close to 0%.

I would be willing to bet the Nashville Sounds would stay right where they are. I am guessing a large part of the AAA team staying in Las Vegas is the fact they have a nearly brand new stadium they just built. I suppose the Sounds stadium might be considered old enough by the time a team would move there in the 2030's...but I am not so sure. 

If the Sounds stay in Nashville, it would make more sense for them to the affiliated with the new Nashville Stars expansion team than to be the Brewers AAA team

[MrTPlush]

 

1 minute ago, edfunderburk said:

If the Sounds stay in Nashville, it would make more sense for them to the affiliated with the new Nashville Stars expansion team than to be the Brewers AAA team

Likely so, they would probably want the AAA team as their own if it stays. All jokes aside, if/when expansion comes, Oakland would be a relevant option for a AAA team. Nashville MLB team gets Nashville AAA team, SanFran creates the new AAA team in Oakland, and then Brewers get Sacramento (current Giants AAA team). I mean who knows what happens when that time comes. MiLB baseball is a weird landscape these days.

Also, whether a city has a current team/stadium isn't going to matter a ton. The Mallards stadium is likely so far below AAA standards any renovation might as well be a brand new stadium cost wise. While it seems to have the space to house enough fans, the seating options may not be up to par and the facilities are probably way below standards. The Saint Paul Saints jumped into affiliated ball as a AAA team, but make no mistake, they had a near $100mil ballpark that was just built. 

 

[wiguy94]

4 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

 

Likely so, they would probably want the AAA team as their own if it stays. All jokes aside, if/when expansion comes, Oakland would be a relevant option for a AAA team. Nashville MLB team gets Nashville AAA team, SanFran creates the new AAA team in Oakland, and then Brewers get Sacramento (current Giants AAA team). I mean who knows what happens when that time comes. MiLB baseball is a weird landscape these days.

Also, whether a city has a current team/stadium isn't going to matter a ton. The Mallards stadium is likely so far below AAA standards any renovation might as well be a brand new stadium cost wise. While it seems to have the space to house enough fans, the seating options may not be up to par and the facilities are probably way below standards. The Saint Paul Saints jumped into affiliated ball as a AAA team, but make no mistake, they had a near $100mil ballpark that was just built. 

 

Hell no. Brewers should absolutely avoid putting their AAA team in the PCL where half the stadiums are at ridiculous elevations and the offensive environment is absurd. 

[MrTPlush]

16 minutes ago, wiguy94 said:

Hell no. Brewers should absolutely avoid putting their AAA team in the PCL where half the stadiums are at ridiculous elevations and the offensive environment is absurd. 

I wouldn't like it...but odds are we aren't going to have much choice. We will get left with whatever scraps are left. It would be interesting what would happen if the expansion team ended up next to a AAA team like Nashville would. Classic musical chairs in MiLB.

[KeithStone53151]

Late to the party, I'm pretty thrilled that the A's are moving. Them having to play in that stadium for so long while the City threw up so many road blocks, it seemed inevitable. It's one thing to not want to shell out a ton of taxpayer dollars to build a new stadium, it's quite another to block a team from buying land to build a new stadium. Vegas seems like a weird choice, I feel like there are other more viable options. Being on the west, they could have simply gone to Portland. San Antonio would also be a good choice. 

Others seem to be noting that there are quite a few decent options for Milwaukee to potentially be moved. It seems unlikely to me though. Milwaukee has notably high attendance, it would seem weird to move a team from a city where fans turn out despite market size. 

[nate82]

35 minutes ago, MrTPlush said:

 

Likely so, they would probably want the AAA team as their own if it stays. All jokes aside, if/when expansion comes, Oakland would be a relevant option for a AAA team. Nashville MLB team gets Nashville AAA team, SanFran creates the new AAA team in Oakland, and then Brewers get Sacramento (current Giants AAA team). I mean who knows what happens when that time comes. MiLB baseball is a weird landscape these days.

Also, whether a city has a current team/stadium isn't going to matter a ton. The Mallards stadium is likely so far below AAA standards any renovation might as well be a brand new stadium cost wise. While it seems to have the space to house enough fans, the seating options may not be up to par and the facilities are probably way below standards. The Saint Paul Saints jumped into affiliated ball as a AAA team, but make no mistake, they had a near $100mil ballpark that was just built. 

 

Unlikely on the Brewers getting Sacramento.  One of the reasons for the minor league realignment was to have the affiliates closer to each other.  Sacramento would be too far from Milwaukee and Biloxi.  I have no idea beyond Biloxi if Nashville is no longer the Brewers AAA affiliate.  Maybe Mobile becomes a AA or AAA team for the Brewers again. 

[edfunderburk]

59 minutes ago, nate82 said:

Unlikely on the Brewers getting Sacramento.  One of the reasons for the minor league realignment was to have the affiliates closer to each other.  Sacramento would be too far from Milwaukee and Biloxi.  I have no idea beyond Biloxi if Nashville is no longer the Brewers AAA affiliate.  Maybe Mobile becomes a AA or AAA team for the Brewers again. 

I suggest the Angels move their AA team out west & the Brewers move their AAA team to Huntsville AL again.

If they were make this move to Huntsville - I hope they change the name - currently the Rocket City Trash Pandas. 

[owbc]

1 hour ago, KeithStone53151 said:

Late to the party, I'm pretty thrilled that the A's are moving. Them having to play in that stadium for so long while the City threw up so many road blocks, it seemed inevitable. It's one thing to not want to shell out a ton of taxpayer dollars to build a new stadium, it's quite another to block a team from buying land to build a new stadium. Vegas seems like a weird choice, I feel like there are other more viable options. Being on the west, they could have simply gone to Portland. San Antonio would also be a good choice. 

Others seem to be noting that there are quite a few decent options for Milwaukee to potentially be moved. It seems unlikely to me though. Milwaukee has notably high attendance, it would seem weird to move a team from a city where fans turn out despite market size. 

Milwaukee has already lost an MLB team once and they almost lost the Brewers in the 90s. It could easily happen again.

Vegas is still not inevitable. If public officials balk at giving tax dollars to a new stadium, I guarantee you'll see some of those other options come up. 

MLB expansion talks will get serious the second the A's and Rays stadium deals are inked. The loss of RSN revenue is going to be the catalyst to bring in some new cash from expansion fees. Everyone seems to know this and various groups of investors have been getting their ducks in a row...Portland, SLC, Nashville, and Raleigh. Right now I would predict that 31 and 32 will be Nashville and Raleigh unless one of the groups out west mounts a more serious campaign. When they go to 33/34 I suspect they will more seriously consider international expansion, with Monterrey MX being the most likely target. 

[areacodes]

3 hours ago, edfunderburk said:

I suggest the Angels move their AA team out west & the Brewers move their AAA team to Huntsville AL again.

If they were make this move to Huntsville - I hope they change the name - currently the Rocket City Trash Pandas. 

Why?  The Trash Pandas is a sweet name.

[Jopal78]

9 hours ago, torts said:

and yet... their MiLB team led the PCL last year in average attendance over 75 games (just 2,500 less than what the A's drew on average in 2022).  Probably because baseball games are in the evening when it’s not 104 degrees outside.  

Yep, a whopping 6,000 fans a night on average with a top ticket price of $25. I would imagine a fair number of those are probably comp tickets from the local hospitality industry as well. 

Since Las Vegas is a smaller media market than Oakland, to be a more viable business venture they’re really going to need to draw a crowd or remain a mostly hopeless bottom feeding small market club.

I guess they navigate all that in Phoenix, it just seems like eliminating one problem (an out of date stadium) to create a whole host of new problems. 

 

[MrTPlush]

18 hours ago, owbc said:

Milwaukee has already lost an MLB team once and they almost lost the Brewers in the 90s. It could easily happen again.

Vegas is still not inevitable. If public officials balk at giving tax dollars to a new stadium, I guarantee you'll see some of those other options come up. 

MLB expansion talks will get serious the second the A's and Rays stadium deals are inked. The loss of RSN revenue is going to be the catalyst to bring in some new cash from expansion fees. Everyone seems to know this and various groups of investors have been getting their ducks in a row...Portland, SLC, Nashville, and Raleigh. Right now I would predict that 31 and 32 will be Nashville and Raleigh unless one of the groups out west mounts a more serious campaign. When they go to 33/34 I suspect they will more seriously consider international expansion, with Monterrey MX being the most likely target. 

I would imagine, eventually, MLB expansion is going to get a bit complicated. You aren't just adding an MLB team, you have to add 4 relevant MiLB teams too (not including rookie ball fodder). Probably wouldn't be hard to get A/A+ facilities...but the A/AA levels isn't quite as simple as those facilities take huge investments. Once you then find legit options to place them that can support them, at this point, you are probably looking at areas with nearby MLB teams. Then you have to worry about encroaching on an MLB teams market or even another MiLB teams market. Small Markets probably don't want a MiLB team they own near them, let alone a team they don't have any ownership interest in. 

I am a bit skeptical of international expansion. Latin America is probably incredibly intriguing to MLB (especially after the WBC excitement/interest), but lets be honest, a lot of those countries are incredibly sketchy. Mexico isn't exactly a place that is considered safe or a place one should go to outside of a resort's walls. Random international series, cool...81 home games, a lot of risk of really really bad PR.

[homer]

I think MLB prefers having at least one major city without a team to use as leverage over existing teams that are looking for stadium deals.

[bucks2281]

1 hour ago, MrTPlush said:

I would imagine, eventually, MLB expansion is going to get a bit complicated. You aren't just adding an MLB team, you have to add 4 relevant MiLB teams too (not including rookie ball fodder). Probably wouldn't be hard to get A/A+ facilities...but the A/AA levels isn't quite as simple as those facilities take huge investments. Once you then find legit options to place them that can support them, at this point, you are probably looking at areas with nearby MLB teams. Then you have to worry about encroaching on an MLB teams market or even another MiLB teams market. Small Markets probably don't want a MiLB team they own near them, let alone a team they don't have any ownership interest in. 

I am a bit skeptical of international expansion. Latin America is probably incredibly intriguing to MLB (especially after the WBC excitement/interest), but let’s be honest, a lot of those countries are incredibly sketchy. Mexico isn't exactly a place that is considered safe or a place one should go to outside of a resort's walls. Random international series, cool...81 home games, a lot of risk of really really bad PR.

 I can’t see the players union ever endorsing a team playing full-time in Mexico. Also … what does a local media deal look like with a Mexican team? 

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, homer said:

I think MLB prefers having at least one major city without a team to use as leverage over existing teams that are looking for stadium deals.

I wonder how close MLB is to being at the end of the leash of extorting existing cities for stadium deals. Most of the stadiums are 25 years old or less and I think there's going to be increasing hostility toward post-Camden teams asking for new stadiums. And I suspect teams like the Jays will just get new stadiums when they're ready to do so, it's not as if MLB is going to take a team out of Toronto. Most of the truly old stadiums are local treasures: Wrigley, Fenway, Dodger Stadium... maybe the Angels ask for a new stadium relatively soon but locals seem to really like that place, even though I despise it (the Angels were my local team for eight years or so).

I suspect we'll start seeing a lot more requests for assistance with refurbishment and a lot fewer requests for new stadiums. I still can't believe Atlanta allowed the Braves to pull the crap they did.