Brewers success w pitchers after trades

[homer]

One measure shows just how successful the Brewers have been at improving a pitcher once they've acquired him. 

[zurch1818]

Very interesting. I find the small range between the min and max to be just as impressive. Yes, Arnold gets a lot of credit for this, but I think that is something the whole organization should get credit for.

The pitchers not only see improvement with their stuff...but also I'm sure it can't hurt trusting the world class defense behind you. That is also something hard to quantity with statistics.

[markedman5]

  Big gap between Milwaukee/Tampa and the rest.. …..

[BrewerFan]

2 hours ago, zurch1818 said:

Very interesting. I find the small range between the min and max to be just as impressive. Yes, Arnold gets a lot of credit for this, but I think that is something the whole organization should get credit for.

The pitchers not only see improvement with their stuff...but also I'm sure it can't hurt trusting the world class defense behind you. That is also something hard to quantity with statistics.

I don't actually think he does. I think if you were to ask, generally speaking, people would credit Stearns for changing the culture and then building "the lab," and the staff and then Arnold gets credit for being part of that front office and keeping it going.

But it's only Arnold's 2nd year. I think the organization as a whole does get the credit.

[homer]

might not be a coincidence that Arnold was employed by the top two teams on the list

[CheezWizHed]

This actually seems small to me.  I would've expected more than that.  0.2/100 pitches equate roughly to 0.3 ERA improvement (100 pitches typically produces 6 IP).

That could be just the impact of defense alone. 

So which is more impactful? Playing in front of a GG defense or the pitching lab?

[homer]

I am not sure defense factors into this metric. Someone (ahem! @sveumrules) with time, interest, and more intelligence than me can correct me if I'm wrong:

BP's Stuff Pro and Pitch Pro Stats

At a high-level StuffPro and PitchPro are measures of the value of a pitch—scaled to runs per 100 pitches, with negative values favoring the pitcher—based solely on the physical characteristics of the pitch and its release, the handedness of the batter, the count in which it was thrown, and—in the case of PitchPro—the location it crossed the plate. 

[BrewerFan]

4 hours ago, homer said:

I am not sure defense factors into this metric. Someone (ahem! @sveumrules) with time, interest, and more intelligence than me can correct me if I'm wrong:

BP's Stuff Pro and Pitch Pro Stats

 

I was also making an assumption that this was over a longer period of time, but it sounds as though this was just last year?

That'd explain the Dodgers placement. 

[zurch1818]

Good memory @homer...I completely forgot he came from the Rays.  I for some reason thought he came from the Astros.

I agree this is something the whole FO and lab should get credit for.  I think Arnold is kind of like the QB on the football team.  The linemen deserve just as much credit (if not more).  I also wonder how long Arnold has been pulling the strings since Stearns seemed like he checked out long before his contract ended.

The Brewers are high on this list because they pick up undervalued midseason scraps...and turn them into gold.  I think the Dodgers typically trade for established pitchers, so trying to get more value out of them is a bigger ask.  However, I don't understand how they can get worse stuff and then win a WS.

My guess is the Dodgers just can outhit the slight dip in stuff loss.  Since this chart only displays change, the acquired pitcher still may be at an elite level.  Last year the Brewers had an ERA- of 88 (2nd in MLB) and the Dodgers had an ERA- of 97 (13th in baseball).  The Brewers had a wRC+ of 104 (10th in MLB) and the Dodgers had a wRC+ of 118 (1st in MLB).   This seems to back up my theory.  

14 hours ago, homer said:

I am not sure defense factors into this metric.

I don't believe it directly does get considered in the metric.  I feel that knowing you have a world class defense behind you can help a pitcher trust his stuff more.  In that aspect...defense can indirectly help this metric.  

[kestrel79]

Dare I say could this be something that ownership and Mark A. get credit for too as well?

People always say the Brewers have a cheap owner, and don't spend in payroll. But I think they spend more behind the scenes on the labs and analytics stuff, the Dominican academies, new Spring Training facilities. All that stuff costs money and has to be approved by ownership I'm guessing.

I feel like no one ever talks about that and we just hear that the Brewers are cheap and don't spend, but I'd be curious to know how much they invest on that side of the team compared to others, I think it really does help keep the team good with a lower payroll for a long time like they have been.

[homer]

1 hour ago, kestrel79 said:

Dare I say could this be something that ownership and Mark A. get credit for too as well?

People always say the Brewers have a cheap owner, and don't spend in payroll. But I think they spend more behind the scenes on the labs and analytics stuff, the Dominican academies, new Spring Training facilities. All that stuff costs money and has to be approved by ownership I'm guessing.

I feel like no one ever talks about that and we just hear that the Brewers are cheap and don't spend, but I'd be curious to know how much they invest on that side of the team compared to others, I think it really does help keep the team good with a lower payroll for a long time like they have been.

Something to be said for that. How many wins does spending $10 million on a pitching lab get you vs spending $20 million on a pitcher?

[kestrel79]

On 11/12/2024 at 10:10 AM, homer said:

Something to be said for that. How many wins does spending $10 million on a pitching lab get you vs spending $20 million on a pitcher?

Yep. There was some article or segment during a game this past season where they talked about the Brewers getting some state of the art hitting and pitching machine that could shoot balls out during BP and show a video of that particular pitcher, and match his spin rate and velo on pitches. Only a couple teams had it, and we did. 

Do you think cheap ownership would buy something like that? No. I think they are "cheap", in that they spend their money in spots that make more sense for long term success of the ballclub. But that's hard for the "average fan" on facebook and X to understand. They are mad we didn't sign Ohtani.

[BrewerFan]

On 11/12/2024 at 8:58 AM, kestrel79 said:

Dare I say could this be something that ownership and Mark A. get credit for too as well?

People always say the Brewers have a cheap owner, and don't spend in payroll. But I think they spend more behind the scenes on the labs and analytics stuff, the Dominican academies, new Spring Training facilities. All that stuff costs money and has to be approved by ownership I'm guessing.

I feel like no one ever talks about that and we just hear that the Brewers are cheap and don't spend, but I'd be curious to know how much they invest on that side of the team compared to others, I think it really does help keep the team good with a lower payroll for a long time like they have been.

It's absolutely something Attanasio should get credit for. 

He hires the executive and I think you're absolutely right. We don't spend here...it's all Attanasio's fault we lost, then he should certainly get credit when you consistently have a well-run front office, you spend to retain young talent and you build the infrastructure they deem necessary. 

It was just last year there was a conversation about how the money was spent, if it would have been better spent on free agency. The ~10 million or so a year they spend on the LA Academy. I don't know what it is, but between signing players and the money to keep it going.

I think about 99% of the board was in agreement...a FA reliever is not more valuable than the Latin American pipeline, even before Chourio had his big rookie season. 

[CheezWizHed]

On 11/12/2024 at 8:58 AM, kestrel79 said:

Dare I say could this be something that ownership and Mark A. get credit for too as well?

People always say the Brewers have a cheap owner, and don't spend in payroll. But I think they spend more behind the scenes on the labs and analytics stuff, the Dominican academies, new Spring Training facilities. All that stuff costs money and has to be approved by ownership I'm guessing.

I feel like no one ever talks about that and we just hear that the Brewers are cheap and don't spend, but I'd be curious to know how much they invest on that side of the team compared to others, I think it really does help keep the team good with a lower payroll for a long time like they have been.

Nope.  It is the offseason and the narrative can only be:

1. We are dumpster diving
2. Mark A is cheap

[Playing Catch]

Since no one else will whisper it...

(Maybe they are cheating?)

[TURBO]

On 11/14/2024 at 11:58 AM, CheezWizHed said:

 

1. Mark A is cheap

 

[CheezWizHed]

2 hours ago, TURBO said:

 

Well, it's about time! I clearly missed it...🙄

[Jopal78]

Doesn’t the original graphic need a bunch of context to mean anything? If it only refers to 2024, who cares? Hudson had a huge year for Milwaukee after coming over in a trade. Tyler Jay has the best 3 innings of his short career after being acquired from the Mets. Obviously, Civale pitched much better for the Brewers and there was even marginal improvement from Montas. Of course that’s a lot of improvement and really only offset by DL Hall who pitched much worse with Milwaukee than Baltimore.

But what about Keuchel? He was not a “trade” per se, but was acquired from outside the organization. He made 4 starts, performed  worse than he had been last year in the majors and got himself released. Mitch White was another purchase and continued to get clobbered in Milwaukee like he had in SF, and LAD. 
 

Certainly in 2023, Chafin, Javy Guerra didn’t pitch very well after coming to Milwaukee in trades and in 2022: Matt Bush, Jc Mejia, and Rogers all pitched poorly for the Brewers as did Urena and Jake McGee who were in season acquisitions of a non-trade type.

Seems to me this is just slicing data in a specific way to support an argument, more than identifying an actual trend. 

 

 

[markedman5]

Not a trade but let’s see how this develops 

 

[liveforoctober]

Garcia is exactly the kind of guy we want our staff getting their hands on. Who know if it works out but 25yo and a minor league deal .. I hope we sign 40 more of these kinds of deals/players.